Cubmaster Jerry

Just finished with Fall Round-up. 60 (yes, you read that right) new boys. That will almost double our current roster. I had three new leaders sign up so that only leaves me short by 3-5 leaders.

Now the real work begins. Hope everyone else did well this year.

Gotta love it!!

Stunned and in awe. I think that best explains how I feel right now. I do not live near the affected areas nor do I even know anyone who does live there. But the feeling of helplessness is overwhelming.

I'd like to jump in the car an head south to help in whatever way I could. However I am content in knowing that my responsibilities in the US Air Force, which include providing back-end support for humanitarian military operations, will allow me to fullfill that desire.

Not since 9/11 have I (and I am sure all of us) felt such an empty feeling. However, I do share many of the same frustrations that acco40 has. But it is our human nature to assist those most in need, no matter the reason. Undoubtedly, we will learn from this. Much of our "education" in these types of situations does stem from a reactionary root vs. a preparatory one. As unfortunate and unsensible as that may seem, we are always willing to take the risk rather than heed on the side of caution. We, as scouts may have a hard time understanding that as we are conditioned to Be Prepared.

But that doesn't help much right now.

Good luck to all.

Jerry(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Jerry)

"Den leaders don't need detais on pack operation they need to know Den operation and just enough of the pack to know where they fit in. Den leaders should not be running family camp and trying to lead the Den at the same time."

Ok, everyone raise your hand if you are part of a Pack that has Committee leaders that are distinctly separated from Den Leaders. Anyone? Anyone? No, I didn't think so.

Bob, while I am right with you about staying within your associated responsibilities (in fact, I would almost call myself hard nosed about it), nearly every leader in a unit handles a multitude of responsibilities across all aspects of running the Pack. A DL might organize a camp or run a fund raiser for example. Maybe as in mbscoutmom's case, the leader holds both a committee position as well as being a DL. I'd love to be in a situation where my DLs could concentrate soley on their den. But then I would have about three people doing everything else.

I know you would wisely suggest that the unit recruit more leaders to alleviate this dual-hat operation. But I am sure you are aware that units aren't run under the dual-hat method because those leaders enjoy doing two or more jobs. Every chance I get I promote, encourage, and gently push parents to step up and take some responsibility in the pack, but, as I have said before, it is not like there is a line waiting to fill out Adult Leader Applications.

Madkins, while I can't say that I follow you into BW's camp, you (and BW) do bring up a point that extreme anchor cases should be dropped. You are also correct in that we are not necessarily equipped with the know-how to turn anchors into sails. This brings me back to my point that LPC_Thumper redirects to - the ability of working with people's strengths. Most people can and will do something that reflects positively on the program.

While we may certianly not possess the ability to change peoples attitudes habits, we are also probably not equipped to judge one's opinions and abilities against our own.

What I am getting to is who am I to judge whether someone is a true anchor, unless in extreme cases or if it is a blatant disregard for something that is BSA policy.

I have a leader who just doesn't want to have more than one meeting a month. He isn't trained but otherwise, he follows the program, is active in the committee, and his boys advance. Anchor or sail?

It is these "anchors" that I would like to push toward being (more of) a sail, not the extreme ones.

These are the

Someone that goes camping in your Pack must be Baloo trained. No expiration date that I know of.

Jerry

There are three Cub leader specific training sessions - Tiger, Cub (Wolf/Bear), and Webelos.

If you are moving from Wolf to Bear, you do not need to take any Leader Specific training.

Novice CM hit the nail on the head. This is a big Committee leadership problem. Everyone has to be on the same page.

At your next meeting, find out why plans were changed. If you get answers that sound like excuses, then there are probably deeper issues within the Pack Committee. If that is the case, it may be uncomfortable, but those need to be worked out.

Bug your Chartered Organizational Rep. If you wait until you know what is going to happen, it may be too late. You may end up getting more frustrated, your Pack's finances may continue to be a mess, and you may lose more boys.

Your CC is out of line in making those kind of changes. He is also out of line in the manner he spoke to you. It is clear that he doesn't understand or respect the idea behind a committee and his responsibilities in it. I am sure you are aware that the Chartered Organization in charged with selecting members of the Pack committee, including appointing the Committee Chair. And, likewise, removing them, if necessary. I realize that committee nominiations are often done without the involvement of the CO but in a problem situation such as yours they are the ones to turn to. Explain to your COR what the situation is. Depending on how involved your COR is with the Pack, you may also have to explain to them the responsibilities of a COR and a CO. Your UC (or DE if your UC handed it off) can assist with this if needed.

Jerry

If I were a gambling man, I would bet that kids would more likely lose interest if meetings were scheduled less than two a month rather than get burned out from having one every week. At the younger ages, it is more the convenience of the parents. However, I think that during the last two - three years of Cub Scouting the boys start to become more involved with other activities and playing more with friends. If Scouts isn't there constantly, they will forget the fun involved and choose not to go. Most begin (and continue) in scouting because their friends are involved. If they can get that same fellowship elsewhere more often, they will likely lose interest.

Jerry

Whenever I provide guidance to my den leaders, I always tell them that I would highly recommend (and wish I could mandate) that they have at least two den meetings per month. Three if they could swing it. This does not include Pack meetings or Pack outings, depending on what they are.

What are your thoughts? I have been a den leader before and I scheduled meetings every week except pack meeting weeks. My argument behind this primarily supports the fact that the more meetings there are, the more the boys are involved and easier to maintain interest in the program.

I have also seen the other end of the spectrum, where leaders only meet once a month plus the Pack meeting. Usually, but not always, these leaders are not as involved themselves and they experience higher attirition rates than leaders who meet more regularly.

How do your units work?

Jerry

Ok, Bob. It is certainly apparent that we have differing philosophies. And I think we are quickly getting back to a discussion state that this post was spun from. Shall we move on?

So, referring to my other post in here (4 up from here), how do we create better sails?

Jerry

"They become good leaders ONLY if they make the internal decision to change. Usually that NEVER happens."

I would very much agree. But hopefully if the unit is in total disarray, you can rally enough additional parents to force that change. Those at Council or District level get paid to right these sinking ships.

"Stepping onto a leaking boat is a waste of time if you do not have the authority to plug the leak."

But then do you just allow the boat to sink with all aboard or do you find someone who does know now to fix a leak? Maybe your specialty is driving the boat.

"If you join a troop with a bad leader you don't have time to wait for the change to happen."

And that is the one problem with my strong beliefs here.

Jerry

Back to working on retaining sails...

First, I will limit my group of "anchors" not to those who have a total disregard for the scouting program or are in it for self satisfaction. I would like to think that these are in the minority. I am labeling anchors as those who maybe don't drag a unit down but certainly don't contribute to the success of the Pack. This type of leader typically just holds den meetings and comes to Pack meetings. Not much else. His/her boys advance and as far as the CM can tell, the program is followed, but more involvement is desired. Keep in mind the following:

- Not everyone's 100% effort is the same

- Bringing in Donald Trump isn't really an option. As I said, the program is followed and boys advance. But we would like to light a spark under their butt.

- No, they aren't trained and getting them there usually proves to be difficult.

The question to relate this answer to is do we as the committee leadership (COR, CC, CM) strive to get 100% participation or just work with those who are willing and risk having the minority carry the load?

I have implemented a number of initiatives, many of which I have iterated in these boards in various places. In the spirit of keeping this short(er), I won't list them in this post now.

Your ideas?

Jerry

"Dying units can be saved. Still the idea that a unit that has an ever changing roster will always do the same thing or act the same way, just doesn't make sense to me. "

Was this pulled from the stones of the Commandments?? I have said this before and I know others may disagree. Don't run from a dying program. It's all too easy to spot a dying program and not want to be a part of it, not asking yourself "What can I do to make it better?"

" We're dealing with people here, so the black/white approach isn't very effective or appropriate.

All these Scouters and potential volunteers have useful skills and energies, the trick is to get people fitted into the right roles"

Exactly. Work to their strengths! There is rarely a group of people, whether it is in the corporate or social arena that has all its members "in harmony". Human relations is so important when we are leaders.

Right on the money, Bob. And I think that is why the majority of us are in scouting, to make a difference (vs. say self glorification).

I am not indicating that I would knowingly welcome a "bad" leader simply to fill a spot. That would be foolish on my part. But, if I have a den of boys who do not have a leader I have but few options. I can take the den myself (I had two last year!) or I can continue to ask those parents to step up until someone does. If one does, they probably aren't going to be as excited as I am about the responsibility but hopefully they are willing to learn and follow the program. As CM, it is my job to guide them in the right direction. I have found many a "diamond in the rough" by proding reluctant parents to take a leader position.

I guess my point is that it is not so easy to make that distinction up front between who would be good or bad until after you have seen them in action.

I sometimes wish training was required. But, lets face it, I would have a more difficult time retaining leaders. I have set up incentive programs in my unit to encourage leaders to get trained and still can't get 100% trained. I suppose that if I made training a requirement in my unit, I would eventually find someone who is willing to get trained and be as enthusiastic as I am. But how long might that take? What do I do with that group(s) of boys in the mean time? I can't consistently run Dens and fullfill my responsibilities as a CM (not to mention the 25 hours a day I need to spend on my non-scouting responsibilities). We all would like all of our leaders to be excited about scouting as we are, jump at the chance to get trained, and research message boards such as this how to be a better leader but that is just never going to happen. Does that make those who don't bad leaders? That depends on the individual. Now, on the other hand, if I have a leader that loses half his/her den, only has meetings once every other month, and could care less about the scouting program then I have a problem I need to address.

Jerry

Many good points, Bob. However, it might not be as easy as that to remove people or turn away prospective leaders. While I push training in my unit every single committee meeting, I hardly have a footing to stand on if I tell someone they can't be a leader if they don't take that training. And some I just can't get to go there unless I bound and gag them. I can only continue to promote, encourage, pay for, and even offer rides to training sessions. Training is not (Shhh) REQUIRED. And, those leaders that I have that aren't trained may be good Den Leaders. We have to travel almost 40 minutes for our training sessions and I have many leaders who work late or on weekends, are single parents, work two jobs, or have 3 kids each in 3 activities a week. It is just not feasible for them. If I just say no to them, I am out good leaders.

And having only good leaders doesn't necessarily draw in good leaders. When I wanted to be a leader, I didn't have any idea of status of the current Pack committee. Not many prospective leaders would. As a Committee leader, you take what you can get at first and hopefully mold those who are unwilling or less motivated to be good, trained leaders. Not many units have people lined up to be leaders. There isn't the opportunity to be very selective. I was on the phone last year for two days drumming up 4 den leaders for new scouts because I had no volunteers at Scout night.

There is far more of a human relations effort when working with a committee than understood. As leaders we have to learn to work with others who may not be as motivated, understanding, or patient as we are. When I have fellow leaders that are frustrated at the lack of effort from other leaders, I remind them that their 100% effort may not be the same as your 100%. It's not necessarily a factor of being lazy or unwillingness to work within the program. We have to work with people's strengths.

The key thing to remember about people in your first group is that the majority of them are new to the program. Once they learn and understand what it takes to run a good program (via training and these boards! ), I suspect they work to incorporate that into the failing program. Those current leaders who have the right intentions will be on board. However, as we have all undoubtedly experienced and at least read within these boards, there are people who do have a disregard for the Scouting program and seem to be concerned with other goals than Scouting intends to provide. Hopefully those are in the minority. A good program is the best medicine for poor leaders. They will either move on because no one likes their ideas or wants to listen to them anymore or they will shift to the good side of the force. Hopefully Donald Trump isn't needed.

Smooth Sailing to all!!

Jerry

So, can I assume that your Pack doesn't do anything (camps, outings, ceremonies, etc)?

Since it is painfully obvious that the current committee is either unaware or unmotiviated (or both) to do anything that would improve your program, are you in a situation to take the lead and run? While I am probably the the most hard-nosed person when it comes to keeping within the boundries of your specific responsibilities as a leader, and this is going to sound similar to a coup but something needs to be done. What if you stepped in and said something to the effect of "This is what we need to do to improve the program and I will take the lead on these efforts. I could use some help, if you would like to offer it." Start planning these things that the Pack lacks. Start small at first, a hike or an advancement ceremony at the Pack Meeting (is that CM job still available?) You may find that you have a small group that will follow you but when the program improves, others will follow. Hopefully the current committee's efforts is simply more of a lack of effort that needs a spark rather than an all out defense against what is proven to be best for an organization.

As far as encouraging the leaders to follow you, I have a couple of suggestions:

1. Assign (ask) a few leaders that you can depend on to do something such as plan the hike, go to the scout shop for you, help out with a Pack meeting.

2. Depending on your Pack's financial situation, make a recommendation that the Pack pays for all Basic leader training. This will amount to about $20 per leader (book included).

3. Also, depending on your financial situation, make a recommendation that the Pack pay for a portion of a registered leader's son's summer camp if they participate in X% of scheduled Pack events. Make being fully trained and attending X number of roundtables part of that requirement.

Depending on your standing within the committee and how receptive the committee as a whole is, these things may prove difficult but hopefully it gives you a start.

Don't forget that Fall Recruitment rally is right around the corner (we call it School Night for Scouting in my area). This is organized and scheduled by your Council, not the committee. Get with your DE to determine when and where it will take place for your Pack.

Also, regarding outside assistance for your Pack's issues. As was mentioned before, get your COR involved. Hopefully, just because he/she hasn't been around is only a result of not being asked and not because they are the COR in title only. Also, your Unit Commissioner should be a good point of contact for help (before the DE). That is their job to work with Packs to make sure the program is running smoothly.

Don't give up and good luck!!

Jerry

good points, ScoutNut.

First, I would agree with Bob, choose to help the Pack or choose to help the Special Needs. Unless you have a ton of time on your hands, just one of those will probably require the majority of your efforts.

Second, does the Committee Chair and other committee members see you as a person selected by the DE to come in and "fix" a problem or as a parent wishing to help out that sees a problem? If it is the former, you may have some difficulty getting your ideas across as people tend to get defensive when they are made aware that they are not doing a good job.

Third, How does the rest of the committee feel? Do they side with the Chair's feelings toward the "undesirable" leaders? How do they feel about not soliciting for new boys?

This all seems to me to have the earmarks of the Committee Chair wishing to run the Pack as she sees fit without understanding what needs to happen, or even cares to have a successful organization.

My suggestions would be this:

1. Attend the next committee meeting. Bring up for discussion, as a concerned parent/leader, the failing points in the program and ask for ideas on how to fix them. Speak from the point of view of a trained leader and lean on what you know about what makes a successful program. Again, if they know that the DE picked you to "fix" the problems, you may run into some defensive attitudes. But that should be expected.

2. If you still find that the CC is hard nose against following the program guidelines for recruting boys and leaders, running a successful program, not having secret meetings, etc, then I would speak to the Chartered Organizational Rep (COR). The Chartered Organization "owns" the Pack and while the committee effectively elects its own members, they all fall under the Chartered Organization and its Representive. Explain to him/her what the Pack is faced with. They should be able to help. That is if you have an active COR.

3. Don't run away. It is all too easy to run away from a failing pack and head for another. While some advocate this, I do not. There are many boys in your Pack that will suffer if that Pack fails. I am not saying that you need to be the Savior, but as you state, more leaders = less chance of failure. Work to establish a program that attracts good leaders.

I agree with the others. There really isn't a whole lot more that you can do. And even though it may be desirable, I wouldn't even go as far as deciding on my own to NOT give him meds when you are charged with doing so. However, the next time you are charged with doing so, I might ask the father if you can hold off on giving them, referring back to the positive experience from the last time.

Good luck,

Jerry

Sure. Let's say that you are selling something and the full amount of the Pack's profit is $5 per item. $2.50 of that goes to the Pack and each scout gets the other half of that profit for his account. Therefore, if a scout sells 10 items, they then have $25 in their account. Of course, you can adjust the percentage the boy gets if you need to. We use 50% because the Pack's 50% is enough for us to pay for our program. This money can only be used by them. Their account stays with them throughout their Cub Scout career and any money at year end rolls over to the next. They cannot transfer it to the troop or cash out when they leave/graduate from the Pack. But, what they can do is spend it all on scout related items before they leave/graduate. Any money left in the boys accounts after they leave gets put in the Pack account.

Now, to get it out, we use a form for such requests. If a parent buys something that is scout related - uniform, patches, tent, sleeping bag, etc, they fill the form out, attach the receipt, and give it to their den leader. Their den leader then turns it in to the treasurer at the next committee meeting and a check is cut. We stress that they will not be reimbursed until after next committee meeting. However, we still have parents that say "But I really need that money now for ______". We make exceptions, we just don't advertise that we do.

Also, make sure the parents are aware what it means by "scout related". You don't want them going out and buying a Coleman Propane stove or something like that. It may be for camping but it isn't for the Scout.

If the parent wants to use some money in their boy's account for a Pack related expense such as dues, camp fee, or activity fee, they still fill the form out and turn it in to their den leader.

I feel it is important to have the form because it forces the parent to realize how much money is being taken out. They also sign it. It prevents a situation where we might have a parent questioning why money was taken out.

This is a little more work on the part of the Treasurer but, like I said, some boys never have to pay for anything if they do well with fund raisers.

Hope that helps.

Here is another idea for Fund Raiser profit. We do something similar to what you suggest. However, instead of designating it specifically for dues, we put half of all profit the boy makes into an account specifically for him. This money can be used for anything scout related - dues, uniform, camping supplies, summer camps, patches - whatever. The Den Leaders make the parent aware of how much is in the account on a regular basis. When the parent makes a "qualified" purchase, they turn the receipt in and get reimbursed.

Boys who do well with fund raisers typically have $100 - 150 in their accounts and they effectively never have to pay for anything at all - ever. And all boys who participate have someting. This encourages participation in the fund raisers.

Also, I would not get in the habit of giving reimbursements for anything. Next thing you know you will have parents itimizing what exactly was spent on their boy and wanting to pay dues accordingly.

Good idea to include cost of leader recharter in that figure. Leaders, by no means, should pay for recharter or training, if financially possible.

mbscoutmom, I apologize if this sounds a bit derogatory. This is not my intention whatsoever. I am certain that there isn't one Pack financial plan that is the same and the method you describe may work perfect for you. I am sure there are nuances to your plan that I am not aware (and that's ok) but hashing out a few of your numbers (still in that mode from my planning mtg), I came up with this:

- you are collecting $3 per month (I assume for only 9 months) for registration and Boys Life. Registration is only $20.80 a yr for these. Thus you are already collecting $6 per boy per year too much.

- you are not expecting to collect much with Popcorn. But you suggest putting (can I estimate?) $400 this yr toward dues. I don't quite understand that. Haven't the parents already paid for their dues? In my experience (and I certainly may be the exception) $24 per year per boy for Den dues should be plenty, if not too much. I know that you can't/don't want to depend on fund raisers to provide the bulk of the funding for the year, but if you tell the parents that a portion of the fund raiser profit will go toward dues, will you give them refunds?

By the way, we don't do well with popcorn either. Which is why we don't sell it. We have found a couple of other fundraisers that our community embraces better than popcorn.

Jerry

I would also be very interested in ideas to better prepare 2nd yr Webelos for Boy Scouts. Not just through the use of a single event but a plan for the entire year. Den Chiefs are a good idea and I had planned on incorporating them more. But, as you indicate, Leaders need to be educated on how to use them.

Regarding ceremony ideas for graduating Cubs. We, too use a ceremony similar to what ScoutNut describes. It is very effective for the event. There are a number of Ordeal Teams, as they are called in my area, that put on a 30 - 45 minute ceremony that includes Boy Scouts dressed up in Indian Regalia. It takes place, as you suggest, in an outdoor setting and after dusk. We use an outdoor amphitheatre at the local Council Camp. The ceremony makes use of the fire pit and they start the fire by shooting a flaming arrow into the base of it. The presentation is based around indians who mature into men and become leaders of their tribe. It culminates with the boys crossing over a bridge in the center of the council ring and being greeted by their new Troop. The Troop replaces their Cub Neckerchief (which was removed by their Cub Leader before crossing the bridge) with a Troop neckerchief. It is definitely the highlight of the year as far as ceremonies go.