Cubmaster Jerry

First of all, Semp is right. The fact that he forged someone's name is a huge red flag with bright blinking lights and a siren.

Clearly this guy does not understand his responsibilities, or at least doesn't want to work within them.

How does the rest of the Committee feel? It is the committee's responsibility (usually through delegative authority from the CO) to maintain quality leadership, including the Cubmaster. If the committee feels that he is not doing his job or otherwise hampering the program, they have the right to fire him.

If you choose to do this, understand that, assuming you don't have someone to step up to be CM, the CC is next in line to handle those responsibilities on an interm basis, not the ACM. That doesn't mean that the CC can't delegate them to you as the ACM

I didn't even think about doing one for my New Leader Orientation meeting. However, I think it would set a nice tone with the new leaders. With your cards, any of your ideas sound fine. I would probably only do one or two, not all three but that is just me.

Good Luck!

Jerry

You have to do what's best for the entire Pack. If the Pack can no longer put on a quality program without charging dues then make the change.

In your situation, yes, I would certainly notify all parents that payment of Pack dues is forthcoming. Having a boy drop out of scouts is easily the last thing that any leader wants to happen. However, you can't run a program with no money.

You can't do much about the parents who will take their son out if they have to pay, no matter what the amount is. However, I am sure you have some that will find it financially difficult. Some ideas to combat this problem and soften the blow for all is allowing Pack dues to be paid in two installments or using some of the profit that the boy earns from fund raisers to go toward his dues (i.e. account for each scout).

Before I arrived in my Pack, there were apparently many parents who questioned why they had to pay so much. The leaders at the time itemized the expenses per boy for an entire year and showed where those dues were going and why they needed additional money from fund raisers to pay for the quality program that was put on. All questions were answered. This may also be a good tool for you.

Also, don't forget to compare the minimal cost of scouting with other activities. For example, in my Pack, a parent probably doesn't put out more than $60 a year (not including start up cost of uniform). Compare that with the cost of 2-3 month sports activities.

Good luck!

Jerry

The simple answer to your question is "it depends". It depends on what that $40 is paying for. If those boys joined my Pack, they would find a similar situation. We charge $41.50 for annual Pack dues. This does not include uniforms, den dues, fees for outings, and belt loops. But it DOES include nearly everything else - registration, boys life, book, rank badges, arrow points, Webelos pins, totems, Webelos colors, approx 8 activity patches, & PWD car. Parents also don't pay for (or bring food for) B&G or Crossover meals and we don't charge a PWD entry fee.

Also, keep in mind, that (in our case) half of that $41.50 fee we don't even see because it goes to Council for Registration and Boys life. That leaves about $20 annually per boy for us to run a program on and pay for all that stuff listed above. We supplement that $20 with two fund raisers - one in the fall and one in the spring. We depend on our fund raisers to bring in approx. $45 per boy per year.

I will agree that it is a lot up front for new scouts, almost $100. But after that it is a relatively minimal cost for an annual program.

Jerry

Bingo! EagleinKY hit it on the head. If it is Pack dues you are referring to, be very careful if you do not charge them for "inactivity". Most, if not all, packs who charge Pack dues, use that expected income to plan their annual program. If you start allowing parents to pay-as-they-go, you will run into problems.

As ScoutNut so correctly noted, there will always be conficts. What if a boy missed a Pack activity and a Pack meeting for one particular month for whatever reason. Do you not charge them for that month because they didn't participate? Do you offer refunds if they have alreay paid their annual dues?

If it is Den dues, then, no. Don't make them pay back den dues because the supplies purchased for those meetings are normally bought while knowing how many to buy for. Planning for Den meetins is normally done on a weekly basis and not an annual basis like Pack activities. And, just because they can't attend the den meetings, they can still work toward advancement.

Good advice so far - games, skits, songs, getting involved, etc. Don't accept that because it is the first meeting, it should lack the excitement and entertainment of subsequent ones.

As far as the uniforms go, I will add this - it is one of my pet peeves. However, we do something that works well. At each Pack Meeting, as each boy enters the cafeteria (where we hold our pack meetings) we do a uniform inspection. A boy can earn 4 points if they are properly wearing their shirts, have a neckerchief and slide, their uniform is clean and they are clean (face, hair combed, hands). They get a bonus point if they wear a hat (which we do not require). At the end of the year, if the boys amass a certain number of points, they get a Uniform Inspection Patch.

Alot of the success behind this is probably a result of the boys not wanting to be told that face-to-face that they are getting a 0 or 1 because they aren't properly dressed. My son spent a whole afternoon, without my prompting, looking for his hat just so he could have it for the inspections. This also provides us an attendance record and helps us determine active/inactive scouts.

Good luck!

Jerry

A scouting program for kindergartners? Sounds like a daycare program to me. Some Tigers have problems handling the limited structure of their program. What type of program could they offer that is a step below Tigers and still be scouting oriented?

Unfortunately, written policies are necessary sometimes, as Greg notes. And as far as whether they legitimately completed the requirements for ANY award/badge, I am with Greg on that as well. Except don't present it as a "quiz" or "test". Present it from the point of view of them telling you about their experience in working the requirements. Unfortunately, that is necessary also. But it is also a good opportunty for the boy to practice communication skills such as recalling information and speaking in front of others.

Jeopardy is a great game for many memorization requirements. I use it for all of my AOL requirements. I have a big board with about 40-50 questions broken down into related categories. My W2 dens could spend a whole meeting every month or so playing. Learning while having fun!! That's the key!

Any ideas on what to do at my first Pack Meeting that will include 130+ boys?

I'll have a few patches from Summertime activities. No den skits as they are just getting in gear so the ACM and I will probably do one, probably a run-on skit that requires a couple of shots to get through it. A game? For 130 boys?

Jerry

I don't know if I'd say "lacking" but you're right. The instruction aspect of scouting can get boring for the boys.

I tell everyone of my leaders that the key to a successful program is making those topics fun. Make games out of the memorization stuff, have a den skit to get across things like effects of alcohol, instead of "telling how to retire a flag - do it!

It is not necessary to follow the requirements word for word. Just be sure that you realize the intent of the requirement and get that across in a fun way.

One of the reasons training appears to fall short is that the trainee has expectations greater than what the training course is designed for.

FScouter, I couldn't agree more. And I hope that my comments weren't taken to mean that I was knocking those training classes. They ARE very important. But in reading many of our comments in these boards, the answer of "get trained" is thrown around freely and gives the impression to many that it is the answer to many of our problems. And it's not. Additional help from those of us who know and doing those things you mention increase their chance of success.

Ok, I get to be the first to ask. What are the two boys working on who are W2 and not new to scouting while the others are starting from Day 1? Certainly they have already done all that the other 16 boys are working on.

It seems as if you have already solved your problem, just in a round-about way. My suggestion would be to do exactly what you suggest - have your ADL essentially become a DL for the second Patrol.

Also, even though the new W2s are at the same starting point as the W1s, they can still earn their AOL in one year. They have to work harder but it can be done and many boys are energized by this challenge. The pace of the W1s is not set to do this. So if the new W2s are working with the W1s, they may not get the chance to earn the AOL.

It seems as if you have plenty of help to separate the boys into W1 and W2 groups. As I understand it, the W2 would have 5 boys and the W1 would then have 13. Quite large for a Den but hopefully most of your parental help is associated with the W1s.

And, you are misinformed. That parent who is the COR CAN be a registered DL. The COR is the only person that can also be registered as another leader.

Great ideas already. I will add this:

Work to separate the group. It doesn't sound like either you or your DL has much faith in him handling the group of 11.

Gather the five new parents together for their first Den meeting. Have another DL, the CC, or other registered leader run the meeting with the boys (because it IS important that they get started now) while you speak to the parents. There are three main reasons that parents don't want to step up and be leaders.

1. They don't care and see the BSA as Baby Sitters of America

2. They don't THINK they have the time.

3. They are unsure of the unchartered waters that is Cub Scout Leadership.

You can work on #3. Hesitant parents may have a difficult time turning the promise of "being trained" into "I can be a successful leader". And let's face it. Training is preached and pushed in these forums by many (including myself) but it falls short in many aspects.

In your meeting with the new parents, reassure them that they are not alone. Make them aware that the last thing you want is for them to fail. Tell these parents that you will essentially hold their hand for the first meeting if they wish so that they get off on the right foot.

You, as CM, should meet with all of your new leaders and explain to them how to plan/run a den meeting, advancement, dues collection, working with the committee, soliciting help from parents, etc. Do this as soon as you can before they begin to meet. Their chance of success as well as your Units will be greater.

Good luck.

Jerry

Sounds to me like you did quite well considering the pool from which you recruit from. Congrats!

How did my Pack do? As you may have seen in one of my other posts, my Pack's problems isn't so much recruitment as it is retention.

Here's to another great Scouting year for all of us! I wish you well.

Jerry

I am trying to figure out how to do all awards at Pack meetings. I would really like to do that. In the past one den was chosen a month to be presented their awards to at the Pack meeting. the other den's awards were left to the den leaders to hand out. It is still possible to keep the meeting around an hour to an hour fifteen and include a song, a skit and some other form of entertainment.

This pack used to not even do advancement ceremonies at Pack meetings. I did their first Bobcat ceremony (to my knowledge) last spring. 19 Bobcats. They loved that one and every other advancement ceremony I did. Made the Pack meetings more enjoyable.

Man, I owe that dude or dudette a lot of money!

I like it!

I will only add that it is important to have a sound and positive relationship with your CO regardless of whether or not they know their place in the scouting food chain. As was correctly stated, they OWN everything that belongs to the Pack. We invite our COR to many of our functions as an "honored guest". Now our COR has very little specific info regarding our unit. He doesn't do anything except attend our B&G, provides an annual financial contribution to the Pack (he's an old scouter himself and the only reason we have his organization as our CO), and signs our paperwork. I don't think he has any idea of what his actual responsibilities are (that Bob so correctly states).

Never-the-less, like I said, the CO owns everything we have. When (not IF) we lose his organization as a CO, he could take everything we have and liquidate it. Our good relationship with him and his love for scouting helps prevent that.

Understand that when it comes to functions of the UC and CO, there is a difference between reality and required but work to make them one and the same.

By the way Bob, I think you owe me a fee under the U.S. Patent Laws. I have been using the phrase "If you keep doing what you have always done, then you will always get what you always had." almost verbatim for years now. Just let me find my patent number....

Yes, I realize that the DE's love to form new units. However, I am the one that presented this to her. I see where you are going though. I have seen where new units are created just to make numbers look good from a Council perspective and then little support is provided to those new units. I know that my UC has devoted a lot of time to that new unit in the adjacent town. Hopefully that will take off.

CM Mike, as far as numbers go, we have 131 boys in 19 Dens.

Cary, that is precisely what we were thinking was the best way to go. We will have to see how it plays out this year. We managed to fill 5 of my 7 leader positions tonight! Woo Hoo!!

We really do have a great program. They had their problems some years ago but a good group of leaders (before my time) stepped up and really did a great job resurrecting it from the coals.

I wouldn't mind being a UC or at least moving to that level. I just signed up to be on my district's training staff.

Bob, it would be foolish to not address both of them at the same time. What happens when (not if) the efforts to fix the retention problems pay off and we have another 50+ new boys next year? I have 23 Webelos 2 that will graduate this year. Even with an attrition rate of 10%, I will be around 100 boys next May and come fall recruitment could have 10% more boys than I do this year.

My Pack's fall recruitment drives have brought in 53, 51, & 68 boys each of the last three years. Another 50+ is not out of the question.

Cary, not sure that adding a few more dens would be the answer. I currently have 19 Dens, three of which are W2 and will graduate. I added 8 Dens this year alone.

Jerry

In a nutshell, the CC handles all of the admin duties of the Pack. If it deals with recruiting and handling of the leaders or scheduling Pack activities, the CC is the person. As mbscoutmom correctly states, delegation is a key to the CC's success.

The CM deals with the program on the level of the boys. Among the obvious task of planning the agenda for and running the Pack Meeting, the CM interacts with the Dens to make sure the program is being followed and the boys are moving toward advancement. The CM also runs (not necessarily schedules) Pack outings and special events such as PWD, hikes, recruitment drives, etc.

Jerry

There have been attempts in the last few years to start up a new Pack, but that Pack pulls from a different school and is in an adjacent town. I suppose that the failure of those efforts can infer a possible failure of a new Pack in my town. I suppose we could push boys from our area and recruitment drives to them. However, as I understand it, the failure is a result of not necessarily too few boys (although they do have a much smaller base to recruit from) but ineffective leadership in that (those) Pack. I don't know all of the details of those efforts but could create another thread as to my and the district's efforts and concerns for its success.

I envision a new Pack in my area working side-by-side with my Pack (something we are trying hard to establish with the new Pack in the adjacent town but are having difficulty doing). Like I mentioned, we would be recruiting from the same school.

The team idea is one we considered and may use if it comes to that. We current have places big enough for our Pack meetings, B&G, and Crossover but we'd be pushing it if we got any bigger.

My CO really isn't a factor, unfortunately. They are pretty hands off when it comes to organizational decisions. In fact, we may be in the market for a new CO in the future because they are folding.

Bob........ the retention problem in my Pack is being addressed. I thought that was apparent in my 2nd paragraph. Now I am working on the GROWTH issue.

Jerry

Ok, looking for some ideas here. I spoke with my DE tonight at RT and suggested looking in to splitting up my Pack. I live in a "booming" area which is evident by my 53 new scouts that we signed up (and collected payment from) last week at School Night For Scouting (SNFS). I already have a dozen more that are waiting in the proverbial line to sign up and pay and can see the final total of new scouts this year reaching 70. This will double our roster size.

My Pack has had roster sizes around 100 after previous SNFS but we have also experienced serious attrition rates of close to 25-30%, not including graduating Webelos, for as long as I know. Since arriving in this Pack, I have directed my attention to improving these attrition rates so I do not expect them to be as high in the future. I DO expect to continue to have recruitment drives that continue to add at least 40+ boys per year to the Pack for a number of years to come.

One idea that I presented to my DE was to funnel all but half of the Tigers from at least next year's SNFS into a new Pack. My Pack would have to act as a sister Pack as the new Pack would have no resources. We would obviously have to do some pre-recruiting of a CC and CM. My DE is giving this issue more thought but I got the impression that there is no set process for this.

Any other ideas that you have seen work? I am not looking for info regarding HOW to create a new Pack (get a CO, trained leaders, etc). I know all of that. I just need ideas on how to spawn one from mine. Oh, we recruit out of just one school so there is no option to have my Pack recruit out of School A and the new one recruit out of School B.

Thanks for your help!

Jerry

We hand out participation certificates for all, while I would agree with those who feel that boys should "learn to lose" these are young boys and like to at least leave with something. We group the racers by rank and race that way. We hand out 1st - 3rd ribbons for each rank and then trophies for 1st - 3rd overall.

With PWD we also include category awards (certificates). However, with 100+ boys, we don't do overall because it would be too much to have everyone in attendance the entire time. We race one rank at a time then present the awards for that rank then move on to the next.