Cubmaster Jerry

Yes, working on and receiving/earning/awarding (however you want to put it) is the distinction here as molscouter and ScoutNut mentioned.

I always encourage Electives be worked on along with Achievments. DLs will find that many Electives can be combined with Achievments to make the activity more interesting as well as getting more signed off in the book and allowing the boys to earn more arrow points.

Jerry

What?!? Initiative can be taught? What Pow Wow class was that?

Allow me to relate this story that a Psychologist friend told me...

A father bestowed upon his young son the duty of bringing the empty trash can from the curb to the house each trash day when he came home from school. Each week, it never failed. Father would come home and the trash can would still be at the curb. He would then have to remind his son of his responsibility. This went on for quite a few years and as you can imagine father sometimes grew quite weary and frustrated at having to constantly remind his son of his chore. One day, father came home and found the trash can in its place next to the house. Stunned, father went inside and asked his son why the trash can was at the house and not at the curb? "Well", the son responded, "isn't it my job to bring it up to the house on trash day?"

There is still hope....

What an interesting topic...

While I would be in the group that can find the overweight 50 yr old in knee high socks and olive green shorts a little....unfashionable, as one who has worn a uniform to work for the last 15 yrs I can accept it. Just don't let it transpire into the 70 yr old who wears the white shorts, black dress socks and loafers.

I can see how wearing the uniform to school might be a little embarassing to a 5th grader. But only because those who question don't know what that uniform stands for and why that 5th grader is so proud of those little patches sewn on it. But a 5th grader can have trouble understanding that.

Has Ms Fleetfootedfox ever witnessed a Scout ceremony or other parts of the program? I am sure that you have brought to her attention the benefits of the program. I appreciate your efforts in making sure your son doesn't learn to be as shallow as your wife seems to be (based on your descriptions). But she did marry you, a self-proclaimed former geek so I assume that she does have some level of acceptance of differing personalities and appearances.

I am just glad that my wife respects the program as much as I do. Now, please let me get back to working on my Committee notes during a break in Monday Night Football.

Your DC did not know who your UC was? You're right, he should know. As I understand it all, the UC reports directly to the DC and, I assume, is appointed by that same DC.

I might question his capability as well.

Jerry

Solution: don't sell popcorn. Council pushes popcorn because they get a portion of your profits from your sales. I am sure that you could find a fundraiser product that (1) a greater percentage of your boys would find it easier to sell and (2) produces a greater profit for you.

CM Jerry

Eamonn,

Rounding down! That is great! Always count on you to come up with the subtle yet effective solutions. If you have to purchase popcorn from council in full cases, then only sell it in full cases. Troops may be different but I know of few Packs that can afford to eat the cost of the extra popcorn not sold (no pun intended).

Jerry

I, too, have practiced and recommend the same-time, same-day-of-the-week method of scheduling meetings. It greatly helps parents remember when Cub Scout meetings are.

My one DL who has just one meeting a month (and schedules it on various days of the week/month) sends home quite a bit of "homework". While this follows the premise that scouting is family oriented, it really isn't what the boys are after. Thus, it isn't a good practice in lieu of having more meetings. Having said that, her Bear den has actually grown by two since Tigers and all have always gained rank. So I have little foothold with regards to her so I don't bring it up but I have made her aware of my desire. And she's a great committee member. That doesn't mean I like her practice though.

As far as having 11 boys, committed parents is what you will need. While some (including myself) will argue that if the parents are that committed, why not have one of them be a DL for a new Den. I had a same situation in my Pack this year where two of my dens grew beyond 8. One now has 10 and one 11. Just as you, they both insisted that it was fine because they had committed parents. So far, so good.

Keep in mind. It's often difficult to break up a large den, especially if you have been together for a couple of years.

Is there another Wolf Den in your Pack? If not, what is going to happen next year when you get only one or two new Bears - not enough to form a new den? Committed parents or not, more growth in your den would not be a good thing.

Jerry

Good luck!

Well, I'm not a UC but I can tell you what my UC does (or as much as I know). I don't know how this compares to the actual job description.

She has at least 3 Cub Packs as well as two troops. She is spending a lot of time now trying to get a new Pack (1 of the three) up and running as well as trying to resurrect a current troop and just getting the groundwork laid for starting a new troop. You can imagine that she is spending a lot of time on the phone and running here and there and everywhere.

With the new Cub Pack she is working with, they are having problems getting people to step up to be CC and CM (imagine that!) so she is wearing those hats now and recruiting hard. She is working with the new DLs, going to their meetings and making sure they are off on the right foot. She is also attending training with them because I guess she feels that she can't depend on them to go themselves.

With my Pack, we are having issues with space - not enough of it. So she has offered to assist us with trying to locate a larger place for us to hold our Pack meetings. She, along with our DE, is also keeping tabs on our CO as there are rumors that they might fold, leaving us without one. So she is putting feelers out in case that happens. Our Pack is well run so, other than the space and CO issue, there really is no need for her to be around. She has attended a couple of our committee meetings early this year.

Like I said, the troop in my area has problems so she is working to rectify those as well as start a new one. More phone time and recruiting.

Then there is, of course, roundtables and UC meetings that she attends.

Hope that helps.

Jerry

I'll put my vote in for Jimi Hendrix. Changed the way the guitar was viewed as an instrument.

I like that idea, acco40. Ours is similar in that we use a buyout rather than meeting a sales goal and having to cover anything less than that goal. We promote our fundraisers with the idea that half of the profit the boy makes goes into his own account.

Our buyout is a very minimal amount and some take advantage of it. In the end they really lose, though. Boys who do well in fundraisers often don't have to pay a dime for anything.

I didn't know there was one of those people in my District I hunt that person down. Thanks for the ideas guys. Still accepting more!

I remember when I was a kid and playing Dungeons and Dragons and how critics (not my parents) said that D&D delivered evil (devilry, witchcraft, etc) connotations to youth.

I remember when I was a bit older and two boys in Nevada committed suicide supposedly from the infulence of the Judas Priest song "Better by you, Better than me". Suddenly all Heavy Metal music was under the microscope.

I guess that means that I must have more than three lives because used to play D&D and still listen to Heavy Metal and yet, I'm still alive and at the very least, not on the verge of flipping out.

Folks, it's all about communication between the parents and their kids. While we all know it's a lot simpler in theory than practice, if parents work to create that bond of trust and openess at an age earlier than later, kids will less likely be so resistant. Everyone is naturally resistant to demands on them. Especially when there is such demanding overtones as a parent can be at times. Sometimes as parents we tend to be more demanding of our kids than we should. "I'm the parent. Do as I say." It's a lot easier to tell your kid to get up off the couch and get the newspaper from the driveway than you getting up to get it. But it's not necessarily right.

Jerry

I assume that you problem is filling Committee postions and similar responsibilities rather than locating DLs. At least that is what I read.

While the ideal situation is to have committee responsibilities separated from DL responsibilites, that almost never happens. Your CC can assign responsibilites such as fundraiser chair, special activites chair and other "2nd tier" roles (i.e. not treasurer, CC, or CM) to DLs. Make this known that it is expected when they sign up - it's part of their responsibility. I am not saying that this is a surefire solution as it borders on mandatory volunteering but if it is seen as part of the "job description" of a DL then they would probably be less resistant. While this would put extra burden on the DL (not a good thing) it will help spread the workload.

A better solution would be as suggested here - pick parents that would be best suited. Have your CC work with your DLs to determine which parents would be most likely to volunteer with just a little "encouraging". In a Pack of 55, you should be able to find at least 2-3, maybe more. Start small. Ask them to help with a single fundraiser or a single Pack outing.

Jerry

Well, it's only October and I find myself in Summer Camp mode already. Gotta get my reservations into Council next month so we have slots for the upcoming camping opportunities.

While getting this info out to my DLs, I started thinking about whether or not it was too soon to even be promoting Summer Camps. After all, that is 9 months away. But of course, it isn't too early.

Last year, I began my promotions in the winter with flyers and mentions of it at Pack meetings. My Pack-level promotions culminated at my April Pack meeting which I devoted entirely to Summer Camps. It worked well, although we had a weak attendance at Webelos Week long. That camp conflicted with the School District's Summer School which most boys go to (they have a sponsor that pays for perfect attendance!!) Hard to compete with that. So I have already made it known that I will highly discouage scheduling any camp during Summer School time.

How about your promotional ideas? I am always looking for new ways to promote this scouting activity. Let's hear them!

Jerry

We do it more inline with Judy's council - providing our own staff. In fact - I'm not sure I even saw ANY District rep at our Day Camp this past summer. As that was my first Day Camp (I always seemed to be on vacation in previous years), I figured it was "the norm". Now I am sure it isn't (see District Responsibilities).

We have three Packs that populate our day camp attendance roster. What we did (have done forever?) is divide up the program areas between each of the three Packs. Each Pack had their responsibility and then there was a Program Dir (one Pack's CC) and the overall Camp Dir (one Pack's CM).

It went pretty well. But as CubScoutJo stated, someone had to be in charge that believed in the program and wanted that success. That desire has to be at all levels - District down to the DLs. Camp is what makes CubScouting fun and memorable. All leaders have to believe that and push that to the parents and boys.

At the Pack Level, that starts with the CM. As CM, I am in the best position to promote Scouting. Pack meetings are a great forum for that.

Can I join your class?

Seriously though, admittedly, I am very ignorant in the use of Den Chiefs. Would it be recommended that, as a CM, I take Den Chief training? I am assuming that it would be recommended for gaining DLs for sure.

Going to check out those links now WDleader...

This is all very interesting - really it is. But I am amazed at the disparity in (1) the application of BSA policies or (2) the understanding of them.

Does the R&R quote entered by nldscout contradict itself? What is the difference between "unit funds and property" in the first sentence that is turned over to Council and "any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit" as written in the last sentence that goes to the CO?

Jerry

I think the more difficult (but not impossible) part of this is having that person on staff with the ability to match a leader to the right job. Not everyone can do that. However we should heed this advice and attempt to.

I have the same question as CaveEagle. How did the segregation come about in the first place? My experience with HS boys is not as extent as yours but when we had some in our Pack, no one even really knew because it wasn't a big deal. And why should they? While you may meet at school and most of your boys may be in PS, the activities of scouting don't revolve around whether or not the boys are in the same school, home school, different school districts, or whatever.

Right you are but that is no easy task...

I'd like to take minute to clarify my intentions with this thread. After rereading my last post some may feel that I am looking for someone to blame for problems with the way the Scouting program is run and they may take offense to where I seem to be pointing my finger. This is not the case. My intentions were, and still are, to formulate a discussion and expand my knowledge on how the program is run and how we as leaders might make it better.

It may also come across that I feel the problems and issues that I am pointing out are widespread and malignant. I don't feel that the program is on the verge of failure because of them but they are present none the less.

Now, back to your regular scheduled program...

Jerry

I realize that the CO is really the key cog in this whole machine. But I think that only amplifies my point here. How many times within these boards have we seen that a CO is nonexistant or isn't aware of their responsibilities? Training is offered for leaders but what about for the CO? Other than at the unit's inception, is there regular contact and a reiteration of responsibiities between the DE/UC and CO? I assume there should be but I think that the fact that there isn't is relatively widespread. District has to realize this and understand the resulting consequences. And while it may not fall under their "responsibility", I ask again - shouldn't it? If the DC, DE, or UC fail to touch base with the CO and watch over the unit on a regular basis, how can they point the finger in any direction but at themselves when a unit fails?

Should District take such a hands off approach and really expect volunteers to effectively manage this program on their own? Should it depend on those volunteers to seek help on their own or training on their own instead of mandating it? Many volunteers may not want the hassle of doing so or think they are doing fine with out it. It's kind of like giving a new driver the keys to the car and telling them to come back if they feel they need driving lessons but they aren't required to do so. And if they don't get lessons and end up wrecking it, well, we'll just get another car and another driver and try again.

Eamonn, while a lot of what I find myself involved with now may seem out of the scope of the CM responsibilities, it really isn't. The success of my unit is directly related to the success of the new unit in my local area. It is also directly related to whether or not my unit successfully splits. So I get involved with both of those processes. And while not directly related to the success of my Pack, as CM, I feel that I would be failing the boys and the scouting program as a whole if I cared not what happened to my sister Troop. Boys who would otherwise still be enjoying scouting are lost every year because of an ineffective program (for whatever reason). As leaders, especially those of you who are at the District level, should find that difficult to swallow.

Praire Scouter, that sounds like a good plan. It would certainly make budgeting much easier not having to depend on the fundraising variable. However, many of the parents in my unit balk at paying $42 a year much less $100. Attitude may be different for parents at the Troop level but we would certainly scare away boys if we charged that much.

Glad it works for you though. Like I said, makes things much easier on the committee.

Jerry

It isn't that I don't know how to be a successful leader, or lead leaders to be successful or lead a unit to be successful. It's really a different approach to ensuring a successful program from the District/Council level. A different way for Scouting to do business, so to speak.

FScouter, I certainly understand what you are saying. Resources, professional staff, ect, etc, etc. I am not saying that those things aren't available. What I am saying is that shouldn't the Council/District make more of an effort to make sure that units are utilizing those things? When asked by new leaders about training requirements I always tell them that I wish I could say that it is MANDATORY for them to be trained. But we know I can't. I wish I could tell them that it is MANDATORY for them to hold at least one meeting a week because that has proven to be the most effective method for running a den. But I can't do that either. So, what could I potentially be left with? A group of dens with untrained leaders that meet sporatically. Both of which put active rosters at risk. I could also have a committee that wishes to charge $150 per boy per year for dues because we don't want to spend the time to do a budget. This would turn away scores of potential scouts. Or I could totally disregard summer camps because I don't think my parents would want to pay $165 for weeklong nor do I really want to spend the time collecting money and making sure all is paid. What does District say about that? Nothing. These are all Unit-level issues.

(I realize the issue with using the term mandatory with volunteer organization)

Does that seem far fetched? I had a conversation with my DE today about our sister Troop. I learned a little about how District works - something that I am sure many of you already know. My sister Troop is on the verge of folding. Let me put this into perspective. My Pack has had roster sizes of 100+ for the last three years and at least 60 for two years prior to that. There is only one other Troop within 20 minutes. The next closes is 30 min. Last year we graduated 9 boys to boy scouts. This year we are looking at graduating 22. With this pool of potential Boy Scouts you would think that my Pack's sister Troop would be flourishing. The current roster size of that Troop is 16! 16!! Half of those 16 have unoffically dropped because the program is "not fun". They have met once since Summer Camp and don't know when they will meet again. The SM and ASM are unreachable. The DE and UC aren't even sure if they have a committee, fund raising effort, planned calendar, or even organized patrols. The DE can't do anything because this is a Unit level issue. The apparent leader issue can only be addressed by the CO if (1) someone (a committee member/leader) brings it to their attention or (2) they recognize the problem and understand what needs to be done to fix it. The COR, while highly supportive of scouting, isn't aware of his full responsibilities. The UC can only advise the committee on how to fix their issues but that is apparently not possible.

So, the District's hands are tied, countless boys who were once active in Scouting have been lost. (no, those boys didn't go to another Troop) To ask many who live here to drive 20-30 min for anything much less a scout meeting is no less of a suggestion than asking them to drive to Timbuktu. The DE's and UC's initial suggestion is - to create a new Troop! For what? So it can fail as well?

My point is this should have never happened. Someone at the District level should have been monitoring this unit (and all units) for signs of problems and headed them off. It takes much less effort and resources to fix a unit or redirect it to the right path than to start a new one from scratch. Many who have Cubs in the Pack are aware of the Troop's problems and would hesitate getting involved for fear of a repeat. This is not the first district I have seen this occur in. It is happening in the one I recently transferred out of as well.

As I said before, I realize that money and personnel shortages in addition to the current practices and policies of the BSA prevent District from doing anything until it is too late. But should it be that way?

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for reading.

...so continues the education of Jerry