CA_Scouter

As others have advised, start small and work your way through the program. We started with designing menus that reduce waste and leftovers. We make smaller campfires now, we do a lot of cold breakfasts so there is no cleanup, etc. We really work the 'dispose of waste properly' angle because we do a lot of backpacking anyway. One exercise we did was to take a cheap frisbee, drill holes in it to use as a strainer for dishwater, so we can pack out the leftover 'nibbles'.

We brought in a rep from the local LNT org, she did a great job and engaged the scouts in various techniques and such. That got 'em started and now we'll probably have half a dozen or so of the guys getting their LNT patch next COH.

DaddyO

As originator of this thread, I can tell you that you are completely wrong in your assessment of the situation. Not even close. The DAC is a fine person and is not trying to belittle nor bully anyone. I was frustrated with the inconsistancy of the wording on how our council required the letters, nothing more. I have since learned from others on this forum that the Council has discretion when requiring letters so I've learned well from this post.

Forgive me, but what you are teaching your kid, by example, is that its ok to make blanket assumptions on a whole group of good people by using one unfortunate situation to justify your actions.

Perhaps we're making assumptions about you as well, and for that I'm sorry, but we scouters are a loyal group so to characterize many of us as 'bullies' is going to get a reaction...

Did I see a proud Momma in one of those pictures?

Nice job.

"...never had an opportunity to know any of the district procedures until it was his son."

Ouch. Ummm, I knew at least ONE district procedure in my term as SM. Maybe even 2. No way on three though.

Ya, Jet, see my first post. Everything you said I covered.. and surely you can tell that most of my rant was tongue-in-cheek. ( or foot in mouth, you choose ;-) ).

Nolesrule... correct, the wording was ambiguous at best, that's what frosted me. If you are going to require these things at least make it perfectly clear...

Ya Beav.. same comment as for Jet... I'm more than willing to help out, its just the ambiguity that set me off... we tried very hard to get everything together beforehand so we wouldn't have to ask him to expedite...

I think it will all work out... I've done my chanting and am one with myself again... ;-)

Ya. Beav.. don't make stuff up eh? I didn't say he can't read nor fill out da app correctly, I only indicated our experience with da DAC.

Cut and pasted from the Eagle Scout Application:

REQUIREMENT 2. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would

be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf.

It does not state that the candidate is required to provide the letters. There is not even a mention of 'letter' in the statement. Son met the requirement, he entered the names of all the references listed.. educational, religious, leader, parent, and two other references, exactly as stated on the application.

He had letters from religious, parent/leader, and two other references. Educational guy hadn't responded yet to his request.

J56 - glad you're not our DAC.

Folks, I said I was half serious about the flood of letters. Just venting...

FrankJ - I actually DID consider his dentist, but I didn't want to appear to be going 'over the top' with this... ;-)

LisaBob - my son didn't need any encouragement from me to be annoyed. I haven't seen him roll his eyes this much since the last time I asked him to comb his hair!

Taking deep breaths and counting to ten... one....two....

Son fills out his Eagle Application/Packet and contacts the District Advancment chair to submit. We have a situation where my daughter is moving out of state in June, so I want to get this processed so she can be in attendance at COH.

District Advancement Chair will not accept the Eagle application without the letters of recommendation. Council says a minimum of 3.

Aaargh. So he rushes to get the letters of recommendation, gets 4, ( myself the SM, personal friend Colonel in the Air Force, personal friend CIO of a high tech company and from our pastor )then meets with District Advancement Chair. Now he says he's got the wrong ones, that the one from his SM ( me ) counts as the 'parent' letter, that he needs one from another leader in the troop, and that there is no letter from a school teacher so he needs that also.

%%^*$%#$!!!

I'm willing to tolerate some of this to a certain point because this guy is, after all, a volunteer and helping him get those letters seems like a friendly thing to do even though BSA does not require it. But to NOT accept the application then to NOT accept it a second time because the 'wrong' letters were submitted... DOUBLE AAARGH!

District Advancement Chair did say he would expedite the process for us due to my daughter's situation so I don't plan to tar and feather the guy like I thinking about last night. However, I do plan to send him a friendly email afterwards indicating my displeasure at his adding to the requirements.

At one time I was considering sending a letter to the DE and Council Exec. Still considering it.

I am thinking to encourage son to get letters from my 3 ASMs, the Chartered Org Rep, Committee Chair, his principal, youth pastor, head of the org who benefitted from the Eagle project, his basketball coach, music teacher and the guy who fixed his motorcycle last time. I am only half serious here.

Thoughts?

EXCEPTION

when NO_DATA_FOUND

then raise BOY_ARE_WE_IN_TROUBLE

when TOO_MANY_ROWS

then raise THATS_BETTER_NOW

COBOL is not geeky, its LEGACY. I still support one COBOL site. ;-)

Back on subject kinda...

I refer to the troop youth as SCOUTS, not boys. In my own small way I think that subtley raises the level of expectation...

.. that and 'no sticks!'

$.02

We had a problem with one of our new crossover kids at Camporee this last weekend.

Kid was hitting the bathroom a lot and asked yet again but his buddy said no, he was tired of taking him so please get someone else. New kid grabbed his buddy, buddy pushed him off, ASM broke it up, end of incident. New kid is very upset that the buddy pushed him back, does not address the fact that he initiated the contact.

Later in the evening, new kid has a fit about not wanting to spend the night, he has to go home... he tells us that 'I've had a very emotional day and I'm emotionally exhausted and I want to go home to my family'. Yes. Seriously. He used those words. This kid is 10 years old.

We try to encourage him to stay, talk about the day, how fun it was, does he need to change tent buddies, what can we do to make him comfortable, etc.,etc. We can't really get an answer as to why he wants to leave... one of my ASM's thinks maybe the kid wet himself and checks his sleeping bag, which turns out to be dry ( but its Sat night and he hasn't been in the bag all day ). Finally I give in and he calls Mom and the boyfriend drives up to pick him up. First time I've ever had a kid want to leave a troop activity ( in nearly 6 years ).

So I have an email exchange with Mom the next day and she apologizes for not letting us know that kid has an 'active bladder' and that because his buddy wouldn't take him to the bathroom Friday night the sleeping bag got 'wet' (unconfirmed about the buddy). My ASMs and myself think there is a lot more going on here than an 'active bladder' and suspect possibly bed-wetting and other ( for lack of a better term ) 'emotional' issues. Kid is from a split family, live-in boyfriend, Dad not in the picture, Mommy's little boy and he plays her like a fiddle, etc.. I bet some of you have been in similar situations....

My thoughts are that he may not be mature enough to handle outings at this time without a parent around. Especially with the 'active bladder', I'd hate to obligate another Scout to accompany him to the loo every hour during the night. On top of that there is the embarrassment issue that I'd like to protect this kid from if at all possible.

Looking for opinions/comments on those of you who've been in this or similar situations. Call it a sanity check. :-)

thanks!

OGE is spot on. No siblings unless family camp. The 'no women' idea is ridiculous. Perhaps it might be acceptable to your 'gentleman' if the woman wore a burka. Just a thought.

;-)

Who wants pie?

Beav - woah - I'm honored to have been spun! ;-)

The skills we teach in the lower ranks are geared towards leadership, outdoor skills, first aid, etc. but now its time for the ELSP. Now they have to go BUILD something! WHAT in the lower rank skills prepares them for project management, construction, etc.?

To clarify, I'm not saying a Life Scout is 'not capable of' or 'at a loss of how' to do the project, its just that he needs guidance and direction from persons who DO have the experience to teach him.

To expect a teenager to do this all on his own without involvement from any of his leaders is a bit unrealistic, IMHO.

One poster mentions getting 'experience'. From where exactly? How does he get experience in project management? By managing a project, that's how. The ELSP IS his learning experience.

Now if he needs his hand held the entire way, then correct, he is not ready, but if its limited guidance and advice, then ok.

Doing an Eagle project is a learning experience. The scout must to be taught and/or advised on how to do things. You do your best to promote initiative and independent thinking with the scout but sometimes they just don't know how to 'do stuff'. C'mon, they are a teenager and have little life experience and/or experience in project management upon which to rely.

Debatable if the comments on the work schedule is overstepping - one point to be made is that is your job as an advisor and the other is that he should have been forced to manage the 'mess' so to speak.

I sometimes have a hard time with the mantra of 'you must let them fail so they learn'. We don't do that in school right? Everything is taught ahead of time, then the student is tested. We really don't do that with Eagle projects, we just kinda say 'go fer it' and hope that it works out ok.

That being said I kept my mouth closed a lot more than I thought I would during my son's project. The duct tape over my lips helped.. ;-)

I think your efforts at being concientious about your level of involvement is excellent and will prevent any serious meddling with the project.

Yikes! Bad stuff. If it was just a friendly drink then off to bed, I wouldn't make a stink ( yea yea I know but this is my opinion ). In this case though, this was clearly overboard, so something must be said.

I think you were correct to not say anything at the time as they wouldn't listen to you anyway, but now its time to follow up privately with those adults and voice your concerns. Expect resistance. If you don't get satisfaction then you'll have to choose as to whether to inform others on the committee or move on to another troop.

You might approach it by 'innocently' commenting on the G2SS rules about alcohol at scouting activities and see how they react. Then you be better able to gauge how they will handle additional comments.

$0.02

ADDED: seeing other posts above, I did not interpret the description to indicate that the SPL was drinking, just that he was sitting at the table when the bottle came out...

(This message has been edited by CA_Scouter)

Discipline is how you train a scout to avoid behavior that would lead to punishment.

You have a committee that handles that?

This is of course a loaded question. It seems to me that the SM may be trying to instill into your scouts the values of the Scout Oath and Law and he is running counter to your committee who is focused on punishment.

If the scouts are running roughshod over the SM, then that's largely the parent's fault, not his. The Committee also burdens some of the reponsibility because they are charged with supporting the SM and the program but I sense the Committee is sitting back watching and judging more than helping. Perhaps the Discipline Committee should be contacting parents and insisting that they counsel their own scout on acceptable behavior in the troop, perhaps even require the parent's attendance for some time until the situation is under control.

Now forgive me, I don't know all the details of your story and I may be way off base, but I wanted to present an alternate veiwpoint for you to consider. Maybe replacing the SM is not the answer, maybe replacing the attitude of the Committee is what is needed.

Woah Kudu!

Would it help if we keep the participants 300 feet apart?

;-)

I've seen two posters on this thread alone that have received inappropriate pm's from this guy. I received one myself, it was quite rude.

I think its time for him to go away. Moderators, please take note!

OK, then, would singing Kum-ba-ya be considered corporal punishment?

Its considered 'idiotic'.

Those who can't lead, punish. Those who can, encourage.

I vote:

Backpacking

First Aid

Swimming

Pioneering

Cooking

Ideas from our district Klondike:

Spaghetti Tie - Similar to fire building but you also have to boil water, cook the spaghetti so its flexible enough to tie into a knot around a stick. Eliminates the 'build the base of the fire 13 inches high to burn thru the 14 inch high string' part...

Blind Tent - One scout gives instructions to blindfolded scouts to put the tent up.

Hot Rock - a 3 foot diameter piece of plywood with three ropes attached. Place a semi-round rock in the middle and the scouts must hold the ropes, balance the rock and negotiate thru an obstacle course. No one can touch the rock, if it falls off the plywood, you can push it back up with a stick/stave. Real challenging with snow/ice as it gets slippery... good patrol cooperation and communication.

I'm there.

Meeting is usually tonight but we had a trip to the Rotary Club observatory scheduled for tonight that got moved to tomorrow night due to the weather... except I'm out of town tomorrow on business, which means no scout meeting this week for me.

I'm depressed.

That means all work an no play for CA_Scouter this week. Boohoo.....

Wow GWD, I think we are leading parallel lives/troops!

Time frame is about the same, adult to boy led, all the issues with the scouts... there is a LOT of similarity in my situation.

I come to the forum here to listen and learn and sometimes contribute. There was a time I would not post because I knew I'd get slammed by several people who were not friendly, courteous, kind or helpful. Thankfully those persons seem to have gone away for now.

Its so interesting to see the differences and similarites of scouting across the nation and to compare stories.

I too, love this scouting stuff!