AwakeEnergyScouter

25 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

WAGGS and WOSM are not the only organizations in the Scouting movement.

Well, not technically, I suppose. The BSA could become a breakaway group, in theory. But the sense in which it then would be part of a movement is debatable, and breaking a lineage comes with a lot of risk.

WAGGS and WOSM are de facto our unified face outward. They are whom for example the UN contacts when they want to consult the scouting movement. In at least some countries it's not considered real scouting, merely scout-like, if it's not the WOSM/WAGGS organisation. I certainly feel that way, even if it isn't 100% true in every circumstance, because I've never lived in a country with a strong scouting tradition in which some nonaligned scouting organisation was even remotely as well known and respected.

3 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Does anyone know if the BSA has granted this organization authority to adopt and express policy positions on behalf of the BSA and its members?  

Of course we have, as WOSM members with a vote in the World Scout Conference we are also an active part in shaping the goals of WOSM.

https://www.scout.org/what-we-do/world-scout-events/world-scout-conference

Plus, since the US already has a different organization in WAGGS, WOSM is the only pathway for the BSA to be part of the scouting movement.

The Arctic is warming more than three times as fast as the average, meaning that I believe my senses and my memory and I believe my parents' generation when they talk about how winters were when they were children. I also trust my fellow scientists , especially to rip each other apart if someone's wrong. I'm sorry, @InquisitiveScouter, I like you a lot, but there's no web link that's going to make me doubt my own eyes or believe that an entire community of my colleagues is perpetrating a hoax.

When my mother was young, the ice in the Gulf of Bothnia froze thick enough that the Department of Transportation drew up roads on the ice. Not only has that not happened in my lifetime (eyes, and hard to make into a hoax), there was a debate in the 1990s about what to do with the ice breakers that spent all winter in harbor. (They're not exactly free to maintain, and also hard to hoax.)

When my parents were young, they could go skating on natural lake ice most of the winter. When I was young, this only happened two or three times a winter and often made the news (own eyes again and hard to hoax). These days, parents are apparently swapping tips on coverall daily laundry because the ground doesn't freeze reliably so the coveralls designed to be warm but not waterproof need washing nearly every day. 

As the vineyards in southern France are struggling with too hot summers, investors are creating new vineyards in southern Sweden where it's always been too cold for good wine grapes. (We're part of vodka Europe for a reason.) Now, it's not. 

I've asked my Tejano and Anglo Texan friends if they've seen any change in their lifetimes, and they have too. It's always been hot in South Texas, but not this hot for this long. It may be more obvious in the Arctic, but it's not just happening there.

And then there's the odds of prominent scientists not taking the chance to throw their rivals under the bus when given the opportunity.

I remember how harsh I was when my advisor asked me to help him review a paper for the first time. Truth be told, why was I harsh? Because he was too close to my own research for comfort. Did he do some stuff wrong? Yeah. But it wasn't as bad as I said. I just didn't like him on what I considered my turf. We scientists build careers by proving others wrong - there's no glory in proving someone else right. Peer review works in the long run precisely because we pick each other apart for our own gain. If there is consensus in a field, that's almost certainly right in the absence of new empirical findings the consensus can't explain. If someone could find a hole in it they would have ridden that to a professional success. If you prove everyone wrong you're a science legend.

How hot is too hot? Depends on what you think is intolerable, not just in terms of temperature but also in terms of refugees and wars over water. Nihilists could make a good case for something much higher than 1.5°C - that's a objectively subjective question. But we scouts are conservation-minded and we also have a code of ethics quite different from nihilists, so the obvious limit for us to work towards is the IPCC-recommended 1.5°C average rise.

The goal is what it's been since I was six: to preserve the status quo in terms of where people can live. Don't flood whole countries (or significant parts thereof) and don't let it get so hot/dry people have to move en masse. Prevent ecosystem collapse and/or extinctions. Surely you've heard the plight of the polar bears? It's been in the news for decades. Other cold water marine animals are showing up in distress more often due to lack of food and the ocean streams are bringing new or extremely rarely seen deep water creatures to Nordic shores due to ocean temperature shifts.

There are solid reasons why WOSM released that statement.

Thank you for posting this! So glad we're speaking up for not just decisive action now but climate justice as well. Most of us on this board benefitted from the emissions that are drowning low-lying countries. It's only fair, now that we realize what we accidentally did, to help them.

I've heard about needing to cut emissions since I was at least six and now I have a child older than that myself and we still haven't done what it's going to take, despite winters getting very tangibly warmer. The changes needed are getting more and more drastic so there's no time like the present!

I'm trying to get my Bears to start learning how to plan an outing with their peers, and I can see we have very far to go. So many social skills to master before they can plop down and get to business in a functional way. They will need to talk over each other quite a bit more, I think, before they really get why they functionally need to all wait their turn to speak. They 100% rely on adults to silence and control people, and while that might be fine for now they need to feel the reins before they will be able to actually steer with them.

I didn't go through this scout program so I have no comparison picture, but it looks to me like even from 4th grade it takes practice to sort through oneself enough to be ready to contribute to a patrol. Quite possibly more than 6 months even with another year of development.

I think an interesting question to ask is "how scout-led can you be at each age?"

Whatever the answer is, we should then do that.

Our council has a Scoutreach program, but I don't know more than that. But thank you for starting this conversation, because it's a really important one!

Yes, both BSA and GSUSA have an ethical obligation to serve low-income communities, and it's not a back burner issue. Especially when proven successful, like in the Scoutreach program that you personally ran, youth programs that strengthen civil society are patriotic and helping young people live happy lives is right action. This kind of thing is, according to the BSA mission statement, core to the BSA's raîson d'être.

Let's be honest, packs and troops in middle- and upper-middle class neighborhoods are going be fine. We can literally sell more popcorn because the people around us can afford to buy it; we have old scouts returning to be scouters (half our committee and leadership) and otherwise engaged parents (the other half) who can and will organize for their kids even if council doesn't. 

BP saw kids on the streets and founded Scouts. If we see kids on the streets and we're scouters, it's much simpler to know what to do. You're barking up the right tree with a community collaboration IMO.

Scouts for SDGs in the form of Messengers of Peace projects seem like a great thing to point out the existence of to wider society. It creates a forward-looking context for various projects we do, highlighting that we are Creating a Better World. That's exactly what a lot of Gen Z wants to do, as I understand it.

So I have an answer from my husband, finally. For context, he was a cub scout briefly but quit after getting weird vibes from the (female) leader, and has not come along to anything scouting-related other than a Pinewood Derby and a campout two weeks ago.

"You know that annoying course I had to take before the campout [YPT, we require all parents to take it if they're going camping with us]? I had no idea that existed."

We have to keep explaining because a lot of people have actually never heard about anything we've done to improve scout safety. We may have heard it ad nauseam, and it's true some parents just aren't that interested and use lack of safety as an out when their child asks, but there's still parents who have no idea. People who think they know (former scouts) may never seek out the information even though it's super googlable. But we can't stop making it accessible and easy to find, as well as clearly maintained.

6 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

May I ask: What does your husband need to see in order to be convinced that Scouting is safe for your child? Is there another pamphlet, training video, or 60 Minutes interview that's going to put him over the edge?

That's a great question. I will ask him.

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Since the BSA will never satisfy its harshest critics, maybe resources are better spent on the families that actually want to be part of the program?

At least right now, my husband definitely needs to hear more about how his scout will be safe in scouting. He's still cracking cynical CSA jokes. He's openly hoping that our cub scout doesn't cross over. 

Families aren't necessarily all in or all out.

7 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

This is a troop, not a pack. More should be expected from the Scouts to not require a hall monitor. 

You know, I had to go back and check several times to verify which it was, because it sounds an awful lot like a pack. Initially, I was reluctantly impressed that such small children managed to vandalize a restroom physically 🙃

I'm very sorry, but I honestly thought that JOTA is as well-known an acronym or abbreviation as "jambo" for "jamboree". It's literally the largest scouting event in the world every year, and has been since the 1950s.

Just so everyone is aware, Jamboree On The Air (JOTA) and Jamboree On The Internet (JOTI) are the world’s largest digital and radio Scout event promoting friendship and global citizenship.

The educational event brings together more than 2 million Scouts every year in October for a weekend of Scouting and friendship. Young people can learn about communications technology and connect with fellow Scouts from over 174 countries.

JOTA-JOTI is about the 21st century skills you can learn in Scouting and the values of global citizenship. The event is open to Scouts around the world, enabling young people to connect and communicate with each other using the Internet and amateur radio. JOTA-JOTI engages youth in educational activities that build teamwork, cross-cultural understanding, and skills for the future.

For more information about JOTA/JOTI, please see the official website at jotajoti.info.

JOTI and JID I'll give you, because they're relatively new, especially JID. That I could have explained.

Now, to the point of my post, hopefully relevant as feedback for JOTA/JOTI organizers - would you like to share how your unit participated? What they liked the best? What they disliked the most?

Sorry, my bad!

Jamboree On The Air/Jamboree On The Internet JamPuz code. I assume JamPuz is short for Jamboree Puzzle.

I saw a lot of calls for anyone from Africa in the chat. We found someone, but clearly people doing the puzzle package with the JamPuz codes were struggling to find scouts from Africa.

Our unit mostly did JOTI from home to accommodate various family ongoings, but I think the lowlight was discovering that our council only had a shortwave radio and that we could only really chat with nearby scouts for JOTA. The highlight seems to have been the JOTI Minecraft server - at least two scouts in our unit clearly felt that way! They could have told us how to find it on the campground in the opening video, though, it wasn't that easy to find.

Highlights? Lowlights?

How/where did your unit participate?

Who managed to find a JID from Africa? 😂

A slightly different tack, but have you considered an artisan bush knife? After our first standard-issue scout knives, some of us were gifted hand-made artisan bush knives by our parents. It felt like an acknowledgement of that we had grown as scouts and people, since they clearly were a bigger loss to lose and often much more beautiful than the basic knives. And often didn't have a guard.

I liked hearing "I’m also very keen on empowering our Scouts to protect themselves.". I think that can really help plug a lot of small gaps that can otherwise be very hard to plug.

Our sleeping arrangements when I was a scout broke a number of YPT rules - girls and boys in the same tent, leaders and scouts in the same tent, sometimes only male leaders. But it was one of those big round canvas tents for 20-30 people in which everyone on the hike or at the camp slept. That's a pretty big audience to avoid waking if you're trying to commit CSA, or to try to groom. And because we all learned about consent and what good sex vs bad sex vs sexual abuse is in school, we shared an understanding of that if you say no, that's it - it must be honored, and violating that boundary makes the violator a social transgressor in a way that authority can't waive. (It wasn't a crime in Sweden back then, but it is now.) 

This applies more to older scouts, of course, but I think we can do more even with cub scouts to create a see something say something culture around CSA. I'm no expert, though, so I'm glad there's even a committee of them. I think that's also smart in terms or rebuilding trust with the wider community.

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

I like that phrase "Be Prepared".  Seems I have seen it before.😉

Perhaps just in passing 😉

Part of the Swedish scout law reads "A scout meets difficulties with cheerfulness."

We have high social capital in large part because we really believe in that sort of thing (or, at least, a stiff upper lip) and in that problems always have solutions. Perhaps this is Nordic of me, but I don't see why the BSA's problems would be any different.

7 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Not pessimistic about Scouting... just ambivalent about BSA's survival.  BSA does not equal Scouting.  It is but one organization that engages in what it calls Scouting.

If it goes the way of the Dodo, there will still be other Scouting organizations around... 

There are several other Scouting organizations in the USA, and you can drill down to find them here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_non-aligned_Scouting_organizations

Sorry, I should perhaps been clearer - that BSA != Scouting was one of my points. I agree completely - the BSA could fold and scouting for men in the US wouldn't die, it would be reborn in some way or other. The BSA can struggle without scouting going the way of the dodo, they aren't the same thing. You can't conclude that society has changed such that scouting will die just because one specific scouting organization is struggling.

Although, I wouldn't call the Pioneers or the Hitlerjugend scouting organizations, so I disagree with Wikipedia on what scouting is. Even their less extreme examples of scouting and scout-like organizations I wouldn't really consider scouting, but that's a more minor point. 

Really, I wanted to point out that there's a point in doing the basic work of delivering the program to interested children, there's a point in discussing and proposing specific operational, strategic, and tactical changes for the BSA, and there's a point to trading tips and wins with each other. The sun will rise tomorrow, and presumably we should be prepared.

Should the BSA actually fail - to be clear, I don't think it will - I think either GSUSA will become the WOSM NSO also, or a new WOSM NSO will be founded by scouters who used to serve BSA. Even in that extreme case, scouting for men will continue in the US, one way or the other.

But disbanding specifically to reform would only make sense if all is lost, and I think it's clear that there's quite a bit left. I understand why a survivor would feel that way, though. Wanting to destroy what/who destroyed you is a thought that is almost bound to arise when you've been very seriously hurt. I think that's what it is, just part of the pain if the painful situation.

2 hours ago, SSScout said:

Knots need to be tied. Trails need to be hiked. Boots need to get muddy and Good Deeds need to be done daily. 

What else is on the agenda?

Tied some knots, hiked some trails, and muddied some boots this weekend. Cubmaster helped an old lady up a steep section of the trail. (She was on her way to the summit to see the eclipse, not necessarily there for the climb itself.) We had a great campout with both fun and advancement and awards.

What else? Raise tents, cook food, have good-spirited campfire. Especially have campfires. 🏕️

#landback! Congratulations to the Esselen tribe.

I couldn't find a quote from him saying this, but given what I did find I don't think I can be bothered to look more - it's plausible enough.

I did also find an NPR segment with a survivor (already forgot his name) who also wanted the BSA disbanded, but in this case to make room for a new NSO.

So that just doubled the number of people I can verify think this, but that's still quite far from a movement or a general societal sentiment.

I think you guys are way too pessimistic about whether BSA can turn it's membership trends, hostile lawyer notwithstanding. (Haven't found the link, but assuming worst case.)

It's easy for me to say since many of these societal changes that the article (and many other posts here talk about) have already gone to completion in Sweden, and scouting is doing just fine and we have more social capital in society than the US. (See https://solability.com/the-global-sustainable-competitiveness-index/the-index/social-capital) Other phenomena the article and posts here talk about were never present in Swedish scouting and Swedish scouting is still just fine. It's just not so that changes in US and only US culture is dooming all scouting. It's not all hopeless.

I'm hoping that some of you who are feeling down about the BSA's future could raise some good mental energy by really noticing this. Scouting has endured for so long in so many places exactly because it's not so susceptible to fads and trends and even genuine societal change. Every society changes - and yet scouting persists in 200 (WOSM)/ 152 (WAGGGS) countries and territories. (So 199/151 that aren't the US.) Scouts advise and address the UN. We deliver humanitarian aid in Ukraine and floods in Libya. Both US scouting organizations do have membership problems, but US scouting isn't fatefully doomed.

@Mrjeff this is all I need to see, thank you.

Just now, Mrjeff said:

Because I didn't know there was a time limit.

Ok, that addresses the first part. What about the second?

If there's no need the debate "the issue", which is (at least) four issues as per your statement above, then why bring up "the" issue?