AwakeEnergyScouter

Sorry, what? Aren't all scouts civilian? Are there really military scouts? This seems highly irregular. Am I misunderstanding your phrasing here, perhaps? When you imply military scouts, what exactly do you mean? If your scouting involvement is half blended with the US military, then that's a guarantee that it's not a representative experience of the scout movement. 30 years ago, we also didn't talk about skin color and cultural background (because much fewer refugees had arrived, and the previous waves of immigrants had integrated well) or sexual orientation. We didn't talk about sexual orientation because we didn't care; it wasn't relevant to scouting or its values. LGBTQIA leaders and scouts weren't a problem. We never talked about religion, that's a private matter, but I'll disagree that three different kinds of Christians is significant religious variety. We did, however, focus a lot on the Scout Law, and part of ours is that a scout is a good friend to all. "Everyone is welcome" is a phrase I heard all the time. All. The. Time. Also, that scouting is a peace movement - not exactly aligned with the military! My scouting experience is just as hyperlocal as yours, of course, but what you can't say is that I'm an outsider to scouting ("the Left") coming to wreck your organization. You don't have to agree with me, of course, but I am sticking by the scout law (you guys just bulleted the parts of being a good friend out separately) here precisely because there are probably others lurking whose sense of belonging in BSA is being shaken by what's being said here. I can't know for sure, but better safe than sorry; that everyone is welcome needs to be said out loud, now that it is so in policy. If someone thinks that everyone is not welcome, then that's something that should be discussed.

Overall, I can't, either. Had a bunch of statements that are potentially alienating to current scouts not been in the OP and immediate comments, I wouldn't have worried about not quite getting what it's about. My personal motivation is making sure that all current scouts feel genuinely welcome, and that nobody who is interested in scouting chooses not to join BSA because they fear being treated poorly. In the service of this, I am now attempting to use the third of the four enlightened actions, magnetizing, since I already tried pacifying and enriching. Where this will ultimately go - well, I guess we'll have to see.

I went out of my way to ask you what you meant. First you elided and then you said "I said what I said", which amounts to a refusal to clarify. This isn't the first time, either. Of course it's possible that you didn't mean what I think you meant, because what you wrote can be interpreted many different ways. That's exactly why I asked you for clarification. Surely you're not now shocked that this could occur? As written, your OP doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's like half the story is unwritten. You're relying on the reader to fill in the blanks. Either fill in the blanks explicitly or expect a series of misunderstandings. Clarity is needed here. Please provide it, if you can. May all beings be happy May all beings be peaceful May they dwell in the great equanimity Free from passion, aggression, and prejudice

It sounds like, though, that an alternative view lives among some scouters, not just you.

Bravo! 👏 They were ready ⚜️

I hope you can find an opening to help them notice that adventure is more fun than a hamster wheel. Sure, there's satisfaction in finishing things. But you can learn skills in many ways. You can only bring a whole group of your friends on some epic outdoor adventure in scouts ⚜️🏕️ I don't recall having earned a thing at any summer camp. Merit badges and advancement was what we did during meetings, and camp was where you showed whether you were worthy. Then again, we have (or had, at least, I see things have changed since I was a scout) far, far fewer merit badges to earn and no "capstone" like Eagle. The reason to stay in scouts wasn't to impress anyone, it was because you liked it.

This sounds super helpful! How wonderful that you did this! Even if you did a tad too much. It's a situation read and it's not easy to see what the exact right level of challenge for someone is. Catching yourself is the steppingstone to improving anyway! 👏

I agree that YPT policies can be a little absurd, but the OP wasn't on that. Check back - it was Eagle94-A1 who brought YPT into it two comments down. Certainly, the difficulty in formulating a policy to protect youth from sexual abusers that they met through scouting but that doesn't lead to absurd situations where youth have to choose between being scouts and seeing their friends is well worth discussing. But the OP seems to be about how BSA has been destroyed by letting people who aren't white cishet males join the organization and the importance of standing by that opinion because it's a morally correct stand.

But you're not actually willing to say it, apparently. You rely on people inferring what you're talking about. And because you're not willing to spell out what you mean and stand by it, the interpretation I land on is that what's ailing BSA is letting all the "riffraff" in. It used to be only the "right" people, and now all the "wrong" people are allowed to join. You think it's wrong, and you're very mad about it, but somehow this has nothing to with DEI. I don't think further comment is needed here. This whole thing falls apart immediately all on its own. I will simple reiterate that your "right" and "wrong" people approach isn't that of either WOSM or WAGGS, and the scouting movement as a whole has long, long since left this right/wrong people thing behind, if it was ever generally a thing. It was never part of my scouting experience, and those pictures by the German photographer were described to have the theme of freedom to be who you are. Bingo, I recognize that completely. That's what scouts were for me socially. It was a place where I belonged. You seem to want the opposite. You want something that's not scouting, best I can tell. Something that's unkind on purpose. You can buy versions of the Swedish scout t-shirt with the logo in rainbow and other pride scout items, and that's because everyone is welcome and part of being kind, friendly, helpful, and a good friend is making sure everyone feels it, too. I don't feel excluded as straight, I've never in my whole life felt like someone or something is holding me being straight against me. Similarly, I have never had the color of my skin held against me, so I am completely unbothered by the existence of affinity groups for POC. That it bothers you so much further reinforces my impression that to you, exclusion is core. As a graduate student in engineering, I loved going to the Society of Women Engineers' national meetings, because for once every single person in this giant crowd is also an engineer. I found mentors and it, for a week, took away the uneasy feeling (based on unfortunate experience) of that some people want you to fail because they don't think you should be there. I encountered them as an adult, and so it was pretty easy to not take the idea that I shouldn't be there seriously, but children absolutely will enter a spiral of self-doubt over those kinds of things. Children need explicit encouragement if anybody ever does! Anger clouds one's judgement. What was the purpose of posting this, since you know it's offensive and exclusionary? I presume you will decline an invitation to clarify once again, and so it is left to look like your mind is heavily obscured by reactive emotion. Hurt people hurt people, I suppose. I hope you can heal your hurt and see clearer in the future, even to the point of attaining profound, brilliant glory. May you recognize your true nature and rapidly attain complete, perfect enlightenment.

So, am I understanding you correctly to be saying that the way in which the Eagle Scout's view of the BSA had soured to the point where he felt that it was in conflict with his morals and beliefs was only with that the BSA has policies around whom older scouts and scouters can spend time with outside of scouting? If so, that wasn't clear to me at all from the OP or your first comment. I still don't see the connection between YPT rules and "false inclusion", but now I'm clear on what you mean by it. Taking my best guess here - is it that both the YPT rules and trying to be welcoming to subgroups the BSA has traditionally vehemently excluded are attempts to save an organization that has already been ruined by its own ego-driven failure to protect youth? Really not sure this is what you meant though.

I don't quite see what this has to do with sexual preferences, gender identity, or inclusion, false or otherwise. I mean, every single person in the BSA now and in the past has had sexual preferences and gender identities, and I'm not sure what false inclusion is in this context. Based on what you wrote next, perhaps you mean ignoring classism? But I'm asking in order to make sure I understand you correctly.

I don't follow. Could you please elaborate?

Perhaps my choice of words here was poor. These scouts are not yet paddling proficiently, so it will be a paddling hike in the same way a 2-mile easy walk in the woods is called a hike for cub scouts. The proposition is to paddle only a short distance, then turning around to return to the dock, in a still wide river. I am taking care to not put myself or the youth at risk. Thank you for reconfirming that my plans are indeed consistent with BSA safety policies as they stand today.

Right. Thank you for checking. So the documents taken as a whole do contradict each other if interpreted literally, but I think the very clear and explicit permission in the AAG ought to take preference because it makes sense to let cubs practice in gentle waters given the adventures they have, because it's so explicit and clearly not a mistake or mis-inference of a single word or something like that, and because official BSA channels keep transmitting the information in the AAG rather than the one line in the GTSS. If this used to be forbidden, then it seems likely the one line in GTSS is simply a leftover. I check my sources, I check policies, and I keep current on training. I plan outings months in advance to make sure they are safe and well thought out. I even sew on badges ASAP. Because I'm prepared, as an example for the scouts.

Our pack saw something similar. We ourselves didn't join as Lions because of the pandemic (wanted to save risk pool entirely for in-person school and select acquaintance visits), and only joined half-way through Tiger year. The pack was small then, but during the Wolf year the den doubled in size. Lots of scouts who left during the pandemic never got back to it, and while more are joining now, there were few Webelos and Bears when my child was a Wolf. Webelos still thin, actually. Luckily, we had the adults to stay active even with few scouts, so we have something to offer new scouts.

I appreciate the step back, thank you @Eagle94-A1 Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am getting my information 100% from official BSA sources, because safety policy is important. I am not saying that I want to ignore safety policy. I am quoting live, actual BSA training and guidance. I am far from the only person to interpret the AAG in this way, as I have already offered you evidence for. I am not proposing changes, I am quoting existing BSA policy in official documents that the GTSS chief presumably knows. If you think I am misinterpreting it, then please clarify specifically how you think the Age Appropriate Guidelines should be reconciled with that single vague lines in GTSS and the absence of what you're claiming is policy in Aquatics Supervision and the online Safety Afloat class. If you think the GTSS chief's office made a bad policy, then talk to him. I'm just trying to follow the guidance his office issued, that's all. I am not in charge of these policies. From Age Appropriate Guidelines to Scouting Activities from BSA, image of relevant aquatics section attached: Whole file: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf In the aquatics section, there's a line labeled "Tubing (floating in gently flowing water)", for which there are checks in the Wolf/Bear Scouts and Webelos columns. Wolf, Bear, and Webelos scouts are Cub Scouts, and the activity description explicitly says this is in flowing water, not water with a 0 m/s flow rate. So, since this is quite explicit and clear, I interpret this to mean that Wolves and Bears ranked as Swimmers can go tubing in gently flowing water. Right below that line, also in the aquatics section, is the activity "Paddle Sports: Youth Operated on Calm or Gently Flowing Water". For this activity, there is a shared note in the Lion and Tiger columns that says "Passengers Only", which I interpret to mean that Lions and Tigers, who are Cub Scouts, may ride as passengers in paddled craft such as canoes and double kayaks. There is also a clarification note across all of the other columns, so including more Cub Scout ranks, that says "Paddle Sports Include Canoes, Kayaks, Pedal Boats, Rafts, Rowboats, SUP". I interpret this to mean that Wolves, Bears, and Webelos may, if they have sufficient swimming and paddling skills, operate their own canoe, kayaks, pedal boats, rafts, Rowboats, and SUPs on calm or gently flowing water, i e no rapids, not even class I. This activity description also explicitly says flowing water, not motionless water. Further, this information in the Age Appropriate Guidelines to Scouting Activities is reflected elsewhere in official Scouting media: Aaron on Scouting: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/06/27/what-to-know-before-taking-cub-scouts-in-or-near-the-water/ "But what about canoeing, kayaking or row boating on still water — water that is calmer than Class I rapids? Yes, but Lions and Tigers are allowed to be passengers only. What about tubing — floating in gently moving water? Yes, but only for Wolf and older." https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/05/25/now-is-a-great-time-to-refocus-on-aquatics-safety/ "Wolf Cub Scouts and older can participate in tubing activities in gently flowing water. Lions and Tiger Cub Scouts can ride as passengers in paddle sports, including canoeing, kayaking, pedal boats, rafts and row boats; older Cub Scouts can fully participate in those activities." Scouting Magazine: https://scoutingmagazine.org/2020/05/five-steps-to-a-safe-and-fun-aquatics-program/ "For example, tubing — floating in gently flowing water — is available to Wolf Scouts and older. It doesn’t matter if a Tiger or Lion Scout in your pack has gone tubing dozens of times with their family; when it comes to official Scout events, only Wolf Scouts and older can go tubing. Then you’ve got paddle sports. Lions and Tigers can only ride in a canoe on calm water, whereas older Cub Scouts can actually start to learn paddle strokes." Cub Chat Live on water safety: Listen from 11:36 of https://www.youtube.com/live/hjwOa4FD23Q?feature=share This is all almost verbatim from the AAG, over and over, all in official BSA policy and communication channels. So, if you see a better interpretation of the sum of all official BSA aquatics safety policies and documents, please explain it specifically so that I can understand what logic you are using, please.

There's no need to yell. We are having a disagreement between two reasonable people about how to interpret written guidelines, nothing more. Or are you perhaps unaware that using all caps is considered yelling on the Internet? I noted your point, namely that the Safety Afloat section in the current Guide to Safe Scouting says "Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council, district, pack, or den events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions)." I am looking at the GTSS as I am typing this; I noted the point, read the whole section, re-took Safety Afloat to check if I misremembered or missed a key point, and checked the Age Appropriate Guidelines again to make sure that I am prepared and doing the right thing. Our disagreement hinges on "moving". Taken literally, any flow in any direction in any body of water above 0.00 cm/s is moving, and Cub Scouts can only paddle in old flooded mine shafts. Ok, a bit dramatic, but a literal zero flow rate of any kind is very rare even in lakes. Have you never been swimming in a lake only to suddenly find you swam into a current? Or realized as you're rowing that you have to counter one? Surely, what matters isn't a literally zero flow rate but rather that it be barely noticable even for a beginner, especially since water with literally no flow is going to be full of bacteria and not wise to be in, and any water we boat in we need to be prepared to enter unexpectedly. So the question is really, in my view, moving how much. How much current is too much? The Safety Afloat training course cutoff is no rapids for Cub Scouts - that's nice and objective, too. It's also consistent with the Age Appropriate Guideline, which you says needs clarification. They certainly do, if you are right. Given that they say explicitly that even Wolves are allowed on gently flowing water and can even go tubing (which requires moving water or it's not tubing), it's not an unreasonable interpretation to think that "moving" in the GTSS means "rapids". In my opinion, it is the GTSS that needs clarification, because that one sentence is much more vague than the AAG. I am not relying on others to check on safety for me, I went straight to the horse's mouth and took the relevant training, and that's "who" is telling me that river sections without rapids are ok for Cub Scouts. But, in again checking my interpretation, I searched more broadly, and turned up more BSA official channels that explicitly say it's ok, like the AAG. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/06/27/what-to-know-before-taking-cub-scouts-in-or-near-the-water/ You are of course free to disagree, but let's not yell, please.

Already done before planning the trip! In Safety Afloat, they focus on what is and isn't allowed based on swimming ability; that none of our Bears will be classified as swimmers also takes care of that they're there to learn paddling skills and aren't already ready to control the crafts by themselves. Each canoe or double kayak will have one scout and one parent, who is the swimmer and main paddler. The Age Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities explicitly allows Wolves and up to operate paddle craft on calm or gently flowing water. I have located a commercial canoe rental service on a gently flowing river section on which Cub Scouts already regularly go paddling - but since we're not allowed to do any class of rapids, we will have to turn around at a certain point, which is just as well since everyone is still learning and we don't want to go too far. Since the Bear adventure Salmon Run includes showing proper rowing and paddling form, it seems asinine to ask the scouts to only practice on dry land! It's adventure time 🛶 Be prepared 🫡

I'm planning a paddling hike for the Bears to really practice those Salmon Run skills, so I'm going to log that too, plus the camping and the yearly swimming event we do! Thanks again 🙇🏼‍♀️ My goal as ADL is to send well-prepared and genuine scouts on into the proper BSA scouting program, and here's a great way to measure whether I'm succeeding. The Bears should cross over with some tangible progress on that, partly in situations where they were in charge and had to grapple with the difficulties of taking the reins and then using them skillfully for the right reasons. The pathfinder and flagbearer on this first hike immediately learned some important basics, like that you need some technical skills to be able to see where you should go and that others may not respect your new authority. The naturalist made both matter less, but next month we will revisit how a group following a leader is actually a form of cooperation, if everyone follows a certain role, and how that role isn't your Self.

Thanks, @InquisitiveScouter! I wasn't going to log them in Scoutbook, because I thought it didn't really count yet, but if it does then the scouts deserve all credit! Thanks for letting me know, so that I can serve my scouts much better! 🙇🏼‍♀️ I will also prepare a little information for crossovers, then, showing them how they're already on their way towards that grand award!

Our new pack hiking club launched yesterday! Upon joining, scouts get an empty dongle with a locally sourced wood slice with PACK X / HIKING CLUB burned onto it (see picture, pack number erased since this is a public forum). For 5, 10, 20, 30, and 40 miles hiked scouts get a bead to thread on the lace, each in the colors of the symbols of the "parts" of flowing, dignified mental energy, windhorse. (So, connecting to 'cheerful', 'brave', and 'mentally awake'.) The colors are yellow for warm genuine heart, orange for meek like tiger, white for cheerful like snow lion, red for outrageous like Garuda, and blue for inscrutable like dragon. They don't know the symbolism yet, I will point it out piece by piece as they earn beads. At 50 miles, they get a hiking stick. The two hike scout leaders have the jobs of carrying windhorse flags on a pole to show the direction clearly and using a map and compass to find the right path. A flagbearer and a pathfinder. I wanted to make sure this first one was a lot of fun and set a good tone for what the fun in hiking is, so we hiked 2 miles at a nature conservation center with a knowledgeable volunteer wildlife and conservation work guide. It completely worked; when it was time to pull out some insect and animal track activities, nobody cares because the scouts were so busy looking for both on their own with a lot of excitement. I counted that as a win and let them. We saw and identified so many animals and plants that we far exceeded the hiking adventure requirements for everyone who came. And since it was at a conservation center, and we hiked 2 miles (and no Webelos came), everyone who hiked also finished their rank hiking adventure! Because summer is the difficult and maybe dangerous hiking season where we live, we substituted the usual hot chocolate for tough weather for fruit popsicles to cool down at the end. Only some melted in the icebox 🤪 🏜️

Definitely the project for anyone who's felt the urge to be a romantic lighthouse keeper like Moominpappa. 🚨🪨👻

Herrlich! Ich kenne das Gefühl ♥️ Wir können unserer Selbst sein, und daß ist genau weifalls jemand Scout werden wolltest. Wonderful! I know that feeling ♥️ We can be ourselves, and that is exactly why anybody wants to be a Scout.

@MattR No, you hid the right one! Thanks! No need to dwell on negativity if that kind. Have fun on the trail! 🏕️

This is kind of amazing. ♥️