clbkbx

57 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

pay $150 per attendee

That is how the Settlement Trust Contribution payout timeline is determined.

Quote

Such annual principal payments shall be equal to the sum of the following calculation: (a) $4,500,000; plus (b) $3.50 multiplied by the aggregate number of Youth Members as of December 31 of the preceding year up to the forecasted number of Youth Members for such year as set forth in the Debtors’ five-year business plan; plus (c) $50 multiplied by the aggregate number of High Adventure Base Participants during the preceding calendar year; plus (d) $50 multiplied by the aggregate number of Youth Members in excess of the forecasted number of Youth Members for such year, excluding the portion of the excess that is comprised of members under the ScoutReach program, as set forth in the Debtors’ five-year business plan; plus (e) $150 multiplied by the aggregate number of High Adventure Base Participants, excluding those attending events with a registration fee of less than $300. 

5 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Not sure if it is in the current one.

There is a Settlement Trust Contribution from BSA that includes a note, cash, artwork, oil & gas leases, etc. (+/- $250 million is the most recent estimate I can find... not sure if that has been updated).

After that is paid there is a Settlement Growth Payment (see #267 in the most recent plan), which I believe is what you are referencing. Up to $100 million additional based on membership rates above 1.5 million scouters or 0.5 million volunteers. The $100 million would be realized if they have 5.5% annual growth. 

33 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

$368 is simply the direct bankruptcy costs paid by BSA.

This is just what I wanted to know… is there a normal ratio of expenses to settlement amount? From what I’ve read and this discussion, it seems to vary quite a bit.

6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

$500k?  Thousand or million?

What’s a few zeros at this point?! 
 

You are, of course correct. It was something around $500 million. 

32 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

@clbkbx ...   What portion of the $368m are BSA side legal fees versus victim representative fees vs other fees ? 

If the court approves the fees, then it's the cost of the bankruptcy and reduces what was available at the start of the bankruptcy.

Hi @fred8033... to the first question, I only know that's broken down in the filings including the by-firm table that was posted above which gives a good overall sense.

I thought that in your initial post you were saying something along the lines of: an entity pays X fees to get to Y settlement (basically, what is BSA going to pay out of pocket to get through bankruptcy) and that X is normally 25-30% of Y. It seems like I might have been mistaken. 

For the second part, I think we are saying the same thing. The BSA is putting a certain amount ($500k iirc) into the Trust regardless of what payments they make to get through the process. Everything they pay out for the bankruptcy reduces what's they have available for operating going forward.

46 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

• How much further will it go?  six months more?  a year? 
• How much to setup and administer the trust?   Assuming trust goes for years.
• What percent of individual awards go to the individual lawyers? 

Thanks @fred8033. I didn't think the bottom two should be included when weighing the typical range but, like I said, I haven't been able to find any good reference for that. Administration is estimated around 10% and lawyer contingency fees are typically around 30% so right away you're at 40% not being paid out to survivors (assuming most are being represented by counsel). 

The BSA costs always seem to me to be about it's continued viability. They're not adding or subtracting to the amount they put into the Trust based on what it takes to get through bankruptcy. 

17 hours ago, fred8033 said:

A success considering normal 25% to 30% fees.  

I've often wondered this (what is a typical fee to settlement ratio) and never found a good source. If the above is normal, wouldn't the fees in this case be about 50% less than normal? 

$2.7B x 0.25 = $675MM and $2.7B x 0.3 = $810MM. Currently at $368MM. 

(BTW, I'm not a lawyer!)

Revised plan filed. Redline here: https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/7f73fba1-1980-4766-a6b3-d80e203fd73f_10263.pdf

7 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Some thoughtful analysis

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/bankruptcy-law/boy-scouts-plan-changes-likely-to-pave-path-out-of-bankruptcy

Thanks. Two comments on the article. 
 

1. I thought the case was going to be appealed. This article says it’s uncertain. I wonder if that’s just because of where the case is or if it not being appealed is a possible outcome. 
2. One of the interviewees said “For some victims it’s a great result,” which is something I haven’t heard from anyone. Is there a scenario where someone is getting a great outcome?  

The TCC today posted a "preliminary statement" at tccbsa.com. 

20 hours ago, clbkbx said:

I'm going to look at this again, but fairly certain the Bates report is only appropriate for a BSA-only approach.

Basically, they said the historical settlement amounts were allocated as percentages to BSA National, LC's, CO's and others. Then they took the BSA National portion as the basis. But the LC's and CO's are being released. 

I was wrong about this. The most recent version includes related entities. 

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

She agrees with the Bate's estimate of $2.4 - $3.6B

I'm going to look at this again, but fairly certain the Bates report is only appropriate for a BSA-only approach.

Basically, they said the historical settlement amounts were allocated as percentages to BSA National, LC's, CO's and others. Then they took the BSA National portion as the basis. But the LC's and CO's are being released. 

10 hours ago, elitts said:

ALL I was pointing out is that prior to the 1980s "They" (meaning society at large) tended not to recognize any significant "harm" done by non-violent child sexual assault outside of those cases where physical injury was suffered.

I think if you check out Moral Panic: Changing Concepts of the Child Molester in Modern America by Philip Jenkins and some information from Stephen Robertson (Crimes Against Children is the book but some of that research is incorporated here if you have a library card: https://www.jstor.org/stable/40663407) you will see that there was a period, defined by Jenkins as the "Liberal Era" from 1958-1976, when what you are describing was the norm. It has changed over time more than you might expect including how it was prosecuted/charged (even as it's been a crime right since the founding of the various US states). 

44 minutes ago, elitts said:

Some examples include

Not sure you could find worse examples for a CSA forum. 

47 minutes ago, elitts said:

I think I read that by the 80s or 90s they started offering counseling of some sort, but again, that depended on the boy having made an official report.

I know there are many different outcomes. My abuse was in the 90’s and he was arrested while still the SM. I guess I didn’t make an “official report” but as noted, not a word to me or my family. 
 

To other abuse victims (or those that would have knowledge): did BSA provide any counseling to you or to your knowledge?

I guess to @elitts’s point, for instances after the 80’s. 

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

It’s probably hard for me to fathom that no one knew

I hear you on this. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, thank you for sharing some of your story. Every victim’s experience is difficult to read. 
 

If it’s not too burdensome to facilitate this conversation, I find your perspective is very valuable. 

21 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

reimbursement for counseling and therapy

As I noted above, no one in BSA ever reached out to me. Here’s some more context: it was the late 1990’s (hope that doesn’t get counted as “old timer”!), my abuser was arrested (bc my family and I reported it to the police) so it was publicly known, I was in Scouts from Tiger through 18 yrs old, Eagle/Vigil/youth leadership positions so I knew/interacted with a lot of adults (SE on down). I never heard they did any reimbursement until recently (my broke college self could have used it more than now). 
 

That said, I’ve been considering it for my more recent during-bankruptcy therapy but haven’t… has anyone on here done that? 

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

you will always find examples to criticize BSA, in most case files I read there was a reasonable good path taken by BSA.

Sure, individual outcomes vary. That’s a lot different than, for example, what @johnsch322 noted about different outcomes based on reporting. 
 

National BSA was the correct entity to be aggregating (which they did) and analyzing (which it sure seems they didn’t) this information. 
 

I’ve made this comment before: that the last vote mainly changed YPT is outrageous. (I do hope the Neutral path helps some victims.) It shows me that BSA… having entered bankruptcy to address their past failures around CSA… are still prioritizing their org instead of youth. It’s embarrassing. The TCC explicitly said it was the reason to vote yes. That seems less like a negotiation and more like a hostage situation (vote for this or else…). 

17 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

what impression I have is that if the parents went to the police first there was a higher probability of arrest and conviction vs if parents went to BSA authorities first. 

That is very interesting, thanks. I thought that the IV files would be released and there would be more in-depth study but now understand that’s not likely (noting that it seems to make sense why they won’t be fully released). BSA let someone fully review them but I didn’t think the analysis was unbiased.
 

If we know this type of abuse is on-going, there are probably other insights to minimize it (a la your example of reporting to authorities not the org, which does seem to be the better approach and I understand is current practice in BSA). 

7 hours ago, skeptic said:

Anyone over forty or fifty might with a little memory search find similar things from their past that today seem so wrong and out of place,

For sure and I agree we need to keep evolving. 
 

I think there’s a difference between the norms you mention and CSA. I’m younger than you but am fairly certain male-male pedophilia was not accepted as part of society. So the everyone-was-covering-up-crimes so it’s fine approach always seems a bit gross to me. 
 

Police covering up racial violence at the time thought the violence was ok. What were organizations covering up CSA doing other than protecting their reputation? 

47 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Since my abuse was very early on in our SM's tenure, I am pretty sure I was the first. The thought of those who came after me is crushing, sickening and maddening.

Same here within the troop but, as noted, I do believe there was at least one victim before me. 
 

My troop was not listed in released IV files. I reached out to a family acquaintance younger than me that was in the same troop and he said there were rumors of someone else after me. I wish that I hadn’t asked… it’s one more thing that I don’t know  from a time that I’m still processing. (Thanks again to this forum… and therapists!)

48 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I am amazed that no one talked to you. I also was not asked and one of my perpetrators was in the IV files and was suspected of having 11 plus victims.

That's right, no one talked to me, either. This was in the early/mid 90's.

As far as I know now, my abuser was not in the IV files although I'm fairly certain I was not the only one. I wonder how it will change my perception if I do find out as part of this process that he was. Reading your post about (at least) 11 other suspected victims has hit hard. I'm so sorry, it's hard to fathom. 

3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

My spidey-sense was telling me this was wrong.

As I understand it now, an ASM reached out to the SE, concerned that I was being abused. The ASM was told everything was ok (not sure on what basis). I know my parents weren’t contacted because they were/are upset when they found this out. 

16 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

Thoughts anyone?

My best guess analysis linked above. There was a data set after the last vote which included the alleged abuse (so a tier could be determined) and alleged location (so SOL's could be factored in). I'm confident that it's less than fully funded. 

The rough estimate I made was that it is in the neighborhood of 30% funded (as compared to liabilities) with no additional contributions. As @MYCVAStory noted in a response, there are known changes (my estimate: 10% to administer the fund) and suspected changes (how many people will follow through, fraud, etc.). Re: how many claims will be paid, this analysis estimated about 43,000. 

We'll see but I think for people not going through the alternate review, somewhere in the 15-20% range if the current plan is approved. That is before any fees for representation. 

Has anyone else made an estimate?