campcrafter

THIS IS LONG.

Well the meeting was last night.

BEfore going I re-read the counsel I received above. Trying to be prepared and remeber to keep a cool head.

The CC, SM and the (what I 'll ASM #1) were there.

I along with 4 other parents of the "new scouts" were there.

The discussion began. I told how many of the parents were unhappy with how meetings were ran, disorganized chaotic and without purpose.

I relayed message from parent who could not be there about how since they live so far away that it is waste of their time to come to meetings. ETC.

The response was that well, while it is true that things are a bit disorganized the boys are getting their requirements done.

One of the the parents of the younger boys said that that is fine and good, but they have no idea what their boy has done - his book only has one thing signed off. The discussion then went to how the boy has to bring his book to a leader and that the troop paperwork has the activities recorded.

It came up though that what the SM says was done at a certain event, what the boy's books have and what the troop record shows are all different. SO that is an area that was agreed needed to be corrected.

ASM #1 who is the parent of a boy who has been in for a couple of years, then said how he would defend the troop, his boy has been in two years, has 15 MB and is about to get First Class. Well for me that shows a problem right there.

Anyway, I then went on to ask how a boy was suppose to know all the stuff and the answers ranged from it's in the book to they need to ask. I then asked who is suppose to do the T-1st requirements with the boys and was told they could do them with their parents and then bring the book to be signed off.

Well that's where I lost it, exhibited un-Scout like behavior I am ashamed to say, and just about walked out. Argument ensued about how I was offered to be the next SM but didn't want it (true) but was being critical of how things were done.

I said I couldn't be SM but that I WAS available to help even be ASM and wanted a good program for my boy and the other 8 boys I had been DL and CM for in cubs.

One dad of an older Scout said well they are getting requirements done and having fun. (This is dad who wants to teach citizenship merit badges to first year boys at troop meetings!)

BUT they aren't doing Scouting. One of the moms of a new boy asked about patrols. The SM said they had picked a name elected and a boy PL and decided to use an old patrol flag (which was laying over on a table). Of course that is the extent of the patrol method they use. Used in so far as to complete the Tenderfoot requirement.

I then put my two cents in about the Patrol Method and was told that is well and good but the size of out troop and the fact that it's near impossible to use patrols at troop meetings because diffent boys are at diffrent stages. AARRRRGGH!

To me that shows they do not understanfd the patrol method. Further discussion ensued, during which time ASM #1 said something which I don't recall, and the CC said forcefully, "That is not by the book!" or semthing to that effect and that marked the turn around of the meeting.

Here was the CC who has been around forever and allowed the troop to get to this point saying I was right and things need to change!

Things cooled down a bit and after more rational discussion it was decided to create 2 patrols, and have an SPL. The 3 active boys that have been around 2-3 years will be SPL, PLs and 2 new boys will be assigned as APL ( i know, but a concession) we will implement the patrol method and meetings will be organized and planned.

Then at the the beginning of next year (after 4 months) elections will be held for the leadership positions. I also got ASM #1 to think about taking these boy leaders on a leadership training campout as a green bar patrol to teach them how it is suppose to work.

Also one of the new parents asked about parents at meeting. The SM said he had wanted to talk about that but was afraid to offend anyone. A problem has been adults sitting around talking while the meeting is going on. Some of the parents said they could just as well drop their boys off as stay. So it was agreed that any parents who stay at the meeting and are not part of the program would remove themselves from the program area.

Also the next troop meeting all parents will be encouraged to attend. The ASM #1 and SPL will explain the basics of the Scouting program (asked for by the new parents since this was never done) and the boys will be divided into patrols.

I feel progress was made and hopefully we're are now at least looking down the right path.

Well that's my point of view of the meeting anyway.

YIS,

cc

(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

Well tonight is the meeting of troop adult leaders and parents.

It has become the concensus pretty much that we need to "fix" the troop we are at. No one right now has the wherewithal to start a new unit and after investigating some other local troops - well they have troubles of their own.

So i will let ya'll know how things go and what direction we are hoping to take. And hope I continue to get sage advice here on the forum.

YIS,

cc

SR540

The more I read your posts - the more i like you. ( As if that matters) You always present a well thought voice of reason.

Maybe we'll meet up someday since we're neighbors.

Campcrafter

Joplin, MO

Whose troop as a kid was 540!

Brent

Seems like you grew up in a well run troop. That seems the logical way to limit troop size and I believe ( and it is only my belief no evidence other than your example) that it would help with active participation dependeent of course on there being a worthwhile program.

SR

So wouldn't you say that the success of your troop has been in part due to the fact that you used the patrol method, even when you only had one patrol?

cc

EagleKY

Yes and that is the boy who needed scouting the most.

But what about the SM making the decison after "tryouts" and picking the troop? Sports say that not everyone gets picked for the team and it is a life lesson.

PLEASE NOTE I am NOT promoting this just discussing and prefer sports programs where everyone gets to play.

But would it be OK to limit the size of the troop and not allow new members until an opening occurred or you had enough on the waiting list for a new patrol?

(By the way I believe it was policy in the early years of BSA to limit troop size to 32 - 4 patrols of 8 scouts each - of course no such thing a SPL then)

E - didn't mean to hijack the thread - just rambling hopefully in a circle back to the fact that a troop must use the patrol method or they are not really scouting and if they are using it scouts will show up to support and be part of the team(patrol)

cc

Oh and in answer to the question, based on what I see on the camp web site, looks like a camp with a long and proud history and great program... YES I would send my son to Onteora Scout Reservation.

cc

LJ

Looking on the camp's web page about CIT's it does say 14 and older but does not mention minimum rank.

As a Scout I went to CIT trianing week at 13 but only because I turned 14 before my weeks of service started. I was first class.

You are right though the more you re-read this post the more things don't jive. It would be interesting to hear form the staff side of the situation. Maybe I'll email them since it is posted on the camp web site.

cc

Hypothetical question -semi related question.

Could one charter a unit that was limited in number - say a troop that allowed no more than 18 boys. Or could you have a unit that only allowed new members who were voted upon by the existing members of the troop?

If you did this could you then enforce an attendance policy? Especailly if you were doing cool stuff and had a waiting list of boys who wanted to join?

YES I know this is elitist, but just for sake of discussion, what do you think?

cc

Big E

I think you have worded "The Problem" well. I'm writing this hurriedly so I apologize in advance if it seems like rambling.

As I have discussed previously the troop we crossed over to has problems. Finally tomorrow night there will be a parents meeting. This thread gave me two really good questions to bring up - that should be obvious but I hadn't thought of.

1. What do parents expect their son to get from scouting?

2. What do the boys expect from scouting?

Unlike sports or band, Scouting is multifaceted and works on the whole boy. While sports can develop leadership skills, Scouting makes a point of it and therein lies part of the problem as I see it.

If we spend too much time training so-called leadership skills rather than outdoor skills, we are not offering the promise. Boys join scouts for adventure and get instead a Tony Robbins seminar. No wonder they leave.

Sports offers more discipline. There is a finite set of rules and positions and time limits. Scouting is very open ended. It takes more work to set up and run the game. We are failing here.

I think if we get back to basics, teaching and developing the outdoor skills the leadership will happen as in sports. As it did in the early years. B-P didn't teach management of learning at Brownsea, he taught how to build fires and make a comfortable ground bed. And sent those boys to teach others. That's what boys want.

We also have to realize that not all boys will be leaders. And contrary to what most believe the requirement is not a Troop Leadership position but a Position of Responsibility. A Scribe does not necessarily have to be a leader but he must be responsible, as does a good citizen.

Rambling complete, will probably have more later

CC

Nothing can ever take away

A love the heart holds dear

Fond memories linger everyday

Rememberance keeps them near

***************************

Red Feather,

The world is a better place because of your father.

My sympathy and thoughts are with you and yours.

Peace,

Campcrafter

Regarding the road I got this form the camp's web site. Seems road work is being done in the area and the camp has made this known. They also acknowledge the condition of the road and urge people to use "high clearance vehicles or 4WD vehicles."

________________________________________

Road Detours to OSR for Weeks 2-6

Go to exit 96 , exit and go to the end of the exit ramp.

Turn LEFT and turn onto DeBruce Rd. Go toward Grooville Rd, which is the normal turn off for camp.

USE CAUTION. Use courtesy on this road and all local roads because many residents are using the same detour and the traffic on these roads has increased. There are deer that cross the roads that do not care if you have the right of way, and the local residents walk on the road - there are no sidewalks.

DO NOT USE GROOVILLE RD. OR WHITE ROE LAKE RD. THE TOWN OF ROCKLAND HAS CLOSED ALL PUBLIC ACCESS TO GROOVILLE RD. ON SATURDAY AND SUNDAY, CAMP STAFF WILL BE POSTED OUTSIDE THE CAMP GATE TO DIRECT VEHICLES TO THE OLD HUNTER ROAD DETOUR.

Follow DEBRUCE RD. for approximately 5.5 miles. The road has been repaired, so use caution on this road.

At approximately 5.5 miles , there will be two left turns. The first left turn is Knickerbocker Rd. DO NOT TURN HERE. Go to GOFF RD (which is the second right), and make a left.

Take GOFF RD. to the end (2.2 miles), and make a left onto OLD HUNTER RD (unmarked). This is a dirt road.

Follow OLD HUNTER RD. for approximately 2.1 miles to the camp main gate. There will be a snowmobile crossing sign before the gate, which will be on the right. Make a right onto the main camp road.

It is important to maintain a speed of LESS THAN 10 mph on the camp road coming into camp. While bluestone is being brought in to top the road, many repaired areas are still soft. Low clearance vehicles must use caution. If you are not used to driving on unpaved roads, please consider carpooling with individuals from your units with high clearance vehicles or 4WD vehicles.

Why do we feel this way about letting our kids run free like we did? I believe the "safety" we experienced was that we lived in in neighborhoods where people new each other and were friends, there were lots of kids who played together, neighbors watched out for each others kids and moms were at home.

If someone did get hurt, 1 or 2 kids would stay with the hurt kid, and someone else would run off to get a mom. And for that to happen the injury required stitches or a bone set. Otherwise you sucked it up or went home by yourself to get cared for.

Today we move to much to bigger better houses, neighborhoods, we don't know ourneighbors, many neghborhoods the families are at diffrents stages as opposed to the neghborhood I grew up in were young couples moved in about the same time, stayed and raised their families together.

The instant media of today that tells of all the bad in the world also has contributed to the paranoia. The bad people have always been out there, we just didn't hear about all of them.

That world of yesterday just does not exist anymore unfourtunately.

Our program though, IF we do it right, can provide some of this for boys today.

CampCrafter, who worked on bulding a tree house for his son this past weekend

SL wote:

As I said, I was trying to be objective and present all points of view, not place blame. For the scouts to assume that they could be paid in advance of their normal payday was a mistake on their part, IMHO. You know what they say about assuming...

YOU ARE CORRECT SL - The scouts should have asked early on for their checks to be handed out early. However these are boys and they don't think about such things. E's post however conveys the RD was being an

.... about it.

I also said, "On the other hand, the Director agreed up front and should have had a plan before he agreed to hire them."

MY APOLOGIES - I missed that.

YIS,

cc

SL

I see your point but comparing this with your story about the Aq Dir is not the same.

These boys who serve on camp staff and who are going to NOAC are the scouts who not only are most active, but also the ones who are the best Scouts and leaders. More than likely the cream of the crop as it were.

If everyone knew about NOAC and the staff members, going the RD should have made arrangements early on for 1) coverage 2) that the boys received their pay before leaving.

Life is too short for such pettiness. I see it too much in the "real world of business" everyday. And while we are preparing young men for responsible adulthood, we should also be preparing them to make the world a better place than it is now.

If we are victims of our bad choices are the troops who attend camp this week to blame that that made such a poor choice in choosing camp the same week as NOAC? That maybe something for troop leaders to consider in the future when planning when to go to camp.

Big E

Not only helping others but being a friend and brother to EVERY OTHER SCOUT!

You as always are to be commended for being a friend and brother by what you did in making sure all these boys had money for the trip. Be sure you get it back! The money you gave them will be gone when they return and a check waiting for them. And they are apt to forget. Continue the life lesson!

CC

(With apologies to Fred for earlier comments about posting news articles )

A boyhood hike retraced

Fifty years ago, members of Boy Scout Troop 10 marched 30 miles to Marshfield. On Sunday, they followed the route again.

By Steve Koehler

News-Leader

Gene Meyer had a simple idea. He'd have his Boys Scout troop from St. Agnes Church earn a national merit badge by marching from Springfield to Camp Arrowhead near Marshfield, more than 30 miles away.

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060717/NEWS01/607170346

And to think this weekend I was being thankful that such controversial topics had been avoided and the I&P forum had been quiet. Thanks alot FB for stirring the pot!

I tell you if you allow Ducks, the next thing you know the Geese will want to join, then what, the gulls? And so the downward spiral begins until, heaven help us, pigeons are allowed, what mess!

cc

RD,

welcome to the campfire

there is much good counsel and debate here

we look forward to your participation

what level is your son at now?

are you a leader? if not - you know you want to!

CampCrafter

Fellow Scouters,

I have talked today to a couple of other parents and the thoughts are at this time that we should call a parent's meeting with the troop committee to discuss the problems/dissatisfaction and if things in this unit can be turned around.

So we will contact CC to see when this can happen - probably first week of August. I will also suggest that the IH and UC attend. And I talked with the parent who is on the parish council and she will work on recruiting a COR from the parish.

Once again I really appreciate the counsel and thing we are making some progress towards finding a solution.

Now I am outta here for a week and I'm going to try not and think about this

YIS

CC

Thanks Ginny.

There has been much good counsel here. I am on vacation after today for a week and so won't be posting.

I again appreciate all who have responded and will use this next week to ponder all this.

Best to all,

cc

It seems that to keep one out of litigation the SM could go with PL / SPL to do bed check. If there is no response without opening flap then the announcement is made that the tent flap is to be opened. The flap is opened by youth member and if the scouts are clothed and or in bed then the adult can verify and/or handle situation.

cc

Off topic

Where do you guys go to summer camp that it is cool enough to close the tent flaps. I wanna go there.

My experience has been flaps and sides rolled up most of the week!

This is of course in heavy canvas wall tents with no shade.

cc

WOW! Thanks for all the advice- I mean it. It is really helping me to think things through and benefit form others perspective and experience.

ScoutNut, Grampye, Eagle, Veni et al

We have no COR, aand our pastor (IH) will just be returning or may not even be back yet from vacation and has a larger problem I am aware of to deal with when he returns, so having those in attendance won't happen.

I have put in call to one of the parents of a Scout who is also on the parish council to discuss this with.

As for the UC, I do think we have one now. Not sure if I should call her and ask her to attend or suggest to CC that she attend.

This troop was down to about 1/2 dozen older boys about to age out and about 5 middle age boys (13-14) who were at various stages in the program.

We crossed over 10 boys much to the delight of the troop leadership. However they really don't know what to do witht these boys. The middle agers that have stayed seem to see it as palce to hang out and BE GIVEN awards to make their parents happy. Most I think could care less if they were in Scouts or not.

And while starting a new troop I am sure is hard - I have been leading these boys all through cubs and webelos. We did good in webelos in the "transistion" training to become more self reliant so I don't think it would be as hard as some cases.

But again some family conflicts are in place that prevent me from just doing that.

I did mention to CC at meeting this week about my being the ASM for the new boys and working on the "trail to first class" with them. I did this off the cuff since I was getting exasperated at the meeting to keep boys from having their parents just sign off on their books and them not having a program. This was met at least by CC for now with approval.

If I do become ASM of this new group of Scouts how far should I go with Patrol activities. What I kinda see happening maybe is a troop within a troop, because actually I would like to take this group of new boys and make 2 patrols. Or would that be more difficult? (Just thinking out loud here) There are 10 boys. 1 patrol or 2?

_______

I did get copy of email one parent sent to CC and SM.

Here it is - names have been deleted.

I am writing this as a concerned parent, so please don't take offense. My older son made the comment after last night's meeting that we need to find a Boy Scout troop that was more organized and geared towards the scouts themselves. He became disenchanted with Scouts also after becoming a "Star" scout due to lack of organization and interest in the scouts themselves. ________ has voiced his boredom several times after meetings but I kept telling him that things would be more organized and fun after awhile. This hasn't happened yet.

Please take this under advisement during leaders meetings when planning activities and meetings for the boys. If there will be someone to lead activities for the boys (scout related) I don't mind driving 30 minutes each way for _________ to attend meetings; otherwise, it's a waste of my time, energy and money.

We would really like to stay with the troop at St. _______ because _________ has made friends with several of the boys even though he doesn't attend St. ________.

This information is for you and ______ only. I don't have his email address, so would you please pass this along to him.

Thank you

_____________

WELL There you have it. Will keep ya'll posted.

Thanks for the support and counsel.

YIS,

CampCrafter

Hey One Hour

Sorry to hear about this. No advise other than yes this man needs to be (re-)trained.

Did you guys go to El Rancho Cima?

CC in missouri where the humidity today makes it feel like Houston!

Not wanting to start over something that had been discussed; albeit a long time ago and briefly, I would like to revisti this question.

As I stated in my rant thread the Troop we are now in allows Parents to sign off on TF 2nd and 1st Class requirements. To me this is just totally wrong. That is the Cub Scout program.

However according to sources above the official literature states the SM may designate who may sign off - so if in this troop the SM designates parents is that OK? I say no. What say ya'll?

cc

SA wrote

"You are not going to change things over night and you might want to pick your battles. "

Amen, Brothers and Sisters. No wiser words have been spoken for anyone going into an existing unit to try and change things.

SA,

Thanks for reititerating that. It struck me that as obvious as the problems are to us, those in charge now do not see it and also I realize that before I got there - it was/is their unit. Those currently in charge belong to the parish also.

cc