campcrafter

Da Beav wrote: "Catholics publish supplementary materials, too, as far as I know."

Other than the religious emblems program materials, As a Catholic Scouter, I don't know of any materials that Catholics have affecting the actual scouting program.

And even if they do as you said the Catholics are publishing them not the BSA who publishes the Webelos Den Leader Book with specifics for LDS units.

My point being that BSA is providing extra accomodations to LDS, and doesn't even seem to wish to consider it for others. True the fact is anyone can register a unit and pretty much run any type of program they want and call it Scouting. You could actually have a Atheist unit and as long as you didn't make waves probably wouldn't be harassed in most areas.

This has actually getting way off topic and is pickin nits, my apologies and I'll excuse myself from the discussion.

Your Brother in Scouting,

ron

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Beavah

I don't know that there was any bashing of LDS.

As for a differnet version of the program - my Webelos Den Leader book uses many pages of paper to outline the LDS agenda for the WEBELOS program for LDS units.

an' dats da truf.

OGE

I reread that - edited it, and hope it is clearer.

I mean that LDS program is modified from that used by other COs, so have special version modified without the DRP for those who wish to use it.

I did not mean to imply that LDS does not abide by the DRP.

Sorry for any confusion.

ron(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

Fred wrote:

GB (and others): you're all focusing on the expulsion by teh Troop Committee but overlooking the reinstatement by the pastor and church. Once they realized they made a mistake (and we all agree the TC acted improperly), they tried to correct it.

True and we can only hope others learn form this but they won't. WHY? Because other than a few back page articles used to fill space in a few newspapapers and a few forums, the people who need to learn the lesson will never hear about it.

It won't appear in Scouting magazine as it should with an article about how the situation should be handled to prevent such bungling elsewhere in the future to the further detriment of the program, but the magazine will just run its usual fluff.

And while they tried to correct the problem - alas, they couldn't, the damage had been done.

CC

Not at all Fred.

I AM suggesting that

1) a new non-religious Scouting program be formed without being harrassed by the BSA

OR

2) As they have done for the LDS - Allow perons to use a different version of BSA program but this time without the DRP. That would be a win-win-win situation.

Non-believers get the program

BSA gets money

Citizens do not have to pay for court cases

cc(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

Secular yes but not a TRULY SECULAR program.

Secular sponsors and their leaders are still bound by the DRP.

Which only takes us back to Merlin and the ACLU.

CC

GB

This is one of those areas I am standing on sand.

On the one hand - the CO franchises the program for their institution and so should be able to set their own standards within guidelines. For most churches I would think Scouting would be part of the youth ministry and would therefore attract mostly people from their own congregation, be part of the larger parish community.

LDS seems to be a unique situation in that they have franchised a different progam than everyone else. But they have paid the $$$ and gained the power to do so.

On the other hand yes it should be a program open to EVERYONE. I think most units are like that. The UMC has become a rather liberal denomination and I would think unless your CO is extremely conservative you would not have any problem.

For churches rather than making it a closed system it seems a good opportunity to witness to those who don't belong to the church. I am not talking proselytizing. I am saying witnessing by example through the program. "Oh they allow non-members to be scouts, hey this is fun, they do good work, what else do they have to offer."

Sadly this isn't the usual scenario.

Maybe a third franchise is needed that truly is secular? Hey what a novel idea. Maybe some one will start something

cc

GernBlasten,

OF COURSE YOU SHOULD NOT BE EXPELLED FROM BSA.

Really do not think you should have much to be conserned with since your unit and CO seems to care more about what good you have to offer than whether or not you pass some fundamentalist, elitist requirement.

I am sure that before you there were many who shared similar beliefs for many years in Scouting. But not until the rise of the fundamentalist movement did anyone care.

I think to that the internet while providing a forum such as this where we can share our good ideas, and offer each other support has also allowed others to promote the fundamentalist agenda and cause good people like yourself much grief.

Awaiting the wrath.

ron

p.s. To be fair I also think that prior to the 70s & 80s (before the rise of the New Age movement) most folks in this country just assumed everyone else was Christian (as most probaly considered themselves - except for those areas with Jewish or Asian communities - there certainly were few if any Muslim communities here in the 1950's - Detroit maybe. (Yes I am talking from possibly ignorant Texas/Midwest point of view.))

pacis amicitia,

cc

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funscout wrote:

but if they believe in a higher authority, then that should be okay with BSA.

Not neccessarily so. BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle states:

The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary...

So it seems just any ol' higher power won't do.

Appears that some folk are quick on the trigger when they should stop and consider the child they are aiming at.

pax,

CC

Fred,

I believe that they do refer to the bible-god.

When was the DRP written? Before the 1960's?

It was no doubt written by upper middle class white American protestant men who would have had little thought of Buddists, Hindus or even Muslims.Who never prbably heard of B'aha'ior Shinto or Jainism or Taoism or Zoroastrianism or Scientology.

So historically I think we can be fairly certain that when these men wrote the DRP they were referring to the Judeo-Christian bible-god.

To further confuse the matter, in other discussions it was mentioned that all a scout would have to do is acknowledge belief in a "higher-power" - but that is not what the DRP says.

The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary.

Deists believe in a single god, creator of all - but think of that god as uninvolved today and so is not a ruling power that bestows favors and blessings.

Of course all this can be twisted to meet ones interpretation. Such as a deists acknowledging god made a world we can live in fulfilling the favors and blessings requirement.

However a Buddist may have a more difficult time interpreting this, being as god is referred to as a personal being- however the buddist does not need to worry because the BSA has bestowed its blessing and favor upon that religion.

I also do not see how the BSA can accept an emblem (created by the UUSO)not approved by the denomination(UUA) when it is the denomination - not BSA that bestows theaward? Based on the passage below how can BSA deny a denomination to promote their religious emblem?

it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

pax,

ron

Sorry to be so late getting back to this thread. Kudu you are always very well spoken when - I appreciate your knowledge and your reasoned responses.

One of my questions is if the belief in the bible-god is what BSA promotes then how do they justify allowing awards for Buddists and Hindus?

Maybe I do not understand these religons well - but I am fairly certain that the Buddists do not promote recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe. Kahuna is this correct?

ron

In the other post (thinking of pulling boy from scouting) it was mentioned that many Webelos are too immature to move on to Scouts at 10 1/2. And that the program should be 2 years and not 18 months.

I agree!

Unfortunately I was told it should be 18 months and to cross the boys over in February or March so they can join the troop and be ready for Summer Camp. BIG MISTAKE!

While some boiys will go to summer camp and I am sure do fine - many aren't. Some because of other activities and some just are not ready.

I wish we had waited till later to cross over and got them really into the troop in the fall. Some may say they would lose interest over the summer. Actually I think they would build up more excited anticipation. Besides they are use to things slowing down for the summer and picking back up in the fall all during Cub Scouts.

What has been your experience?

Should Webelos cross early in the year or later?

I also think that by losing 6 months the ppressure to complete AOL requirements intensifies and therefore the 2 year Webelos becomes just about advancement and not necessarily fun.

CC

Hey Beav,

You are wise.

All without any "active investment management" by parents. Only regular deposits of love and encouragement, compounded daily.

That's awesome!

I concede.

Best to All,

CC

My son played soccer, baseball, football, bowling and tried karate. What return did he get from all these? He had fun.

Then the return on your invest of time and money was good. Had he not had fun or the baseball league been disorganized, the kids not learn much about baseball and not had fun - you would have been upset and thought your time and money wasted - bad ROI.

The only ROI that is necessary is they learned something & had fun. 

Nah that's not the problem. The problem is I don't expect any return.

Ed, you contradict yourself you say the only ROI (i.e. return) that is necessary is they learned something and had fun.- then state you don't expect any return. Which is it? Obviously you DO expect a return.

Enjoying the friendly debate

CC

Lisa,

Not to be answerign for ITS ME - but if you read many of his other posts he has been a very active leader and is Wood Badge trained.

I believe that while the WEBELOS program can be good - it takes extra hard work to make it exciting and for the most part the empahsis is spending 18 months fulfilling requiremnts to ensure that the boys get AOL. To this all the other parts of the prgram take a back seat. Especially if you are leading a Den alone as many are.

I agree with IM that many parts of the prgram requirements become redundant at least thru Tenderfoot. How many times do you have to do a flag ceremony, or show how to wash and put a band-aid on a minor cut? I know repetition ensures learning but does it have to be a requirement for every stinking rank? I can see where people get bored.

I do disagree with IM that leadership development takes 3-4 years to occur. True maybe in some larger troops a boy may not get elected to PL til then,(some boys may never get to be PL) but there are many ways to develop leadership in the program.

pax,

ron

EDDIE,

Sorry Friend - I Think You Are Wrong!

If I do not insure that there is a return on the time and money I invest in my child's activities then neither he/she (fun, education, friendships, experience, adventure, whatever) nor I (a well adjusted, educated, well rounded young man/woman) get what they should from the acivity. Further it is poor parenting not to do this. IMNSHO

Also my child may have some interests that differ from mine and I surely would not deny my child the chance to explore those interests and I still can expect a good ROI.

Maybe our problem here is what each of us considers to be the investment and what kind of return is expected.

pax,

ron

KSscoutmon,

Is that you Rosalee? If not whatpart of KS are you in?

Discipline is not against Scout rules. Certain types of punishment are. A troop does not have to put up with mis-behaving, disrespectful boys.

This sounds just like the troop our boys just crossed over to at the moment it is vey poorly organized and the older boys act the same or don't show up. We are hoping things improve with parents such as yourself.

As I stated in another thread my boy is a bit disapointed in how things are going and said he might ant to look at another troop even though this one is sponsored by our church and the boys that crossed over have mostly all been together since Tigers.

CC(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

Its Me,

I feel your pain.

Scouting can be a wonderful program that helps develop boys into good citizens. It can also be a terrible program. Depends on a lot of variables.

I agree with you that we as parents should look for a return on our investment. We are investing time and money(often lots of both) on something to help our kids. Unfortunately the return is not seen for many years. However most of us are probably smart enough to see whether or not the return will come.

Most of the people on this forum a VERY dedicated Scouters and work hard to insure a good program. But how many people are here to discuss how to make a better program compared to all the other volunteers out there doing it just for the duration while their kid is in it cause no one else will do it? hose persons are to be commended for stepping up but they probably do not have the committement that many here do and I am sure their programs show it.

There are those toolike yourself who strive for a good program but one person can only do so much and remain (pick one or all ) sane, employed, married.

So Its Me I fully understand where you are coming from. It is a great program but for some it just ain't don't work. Maybe a diffrent unit would be better for your family? Or check out what 4-H is doing in your area they have great program too.

All the Best,

CampCrafter

Ed

You have the best explanation yet. Mom was right!

I stand corrected in calling these rules silly.

I think sometimes they just need their reasoning explained better to ignorant folk like me.

Scout On!

CC

gwd wrote:

Every morning, Scouts must bring me from the campsite to the assembly in a sedan chair properly lashed together. Of course, they must avert their eyes to my presence and gently place the chair to the ground so that I may debark with all the grace and ceremony befitting my high rank and authority. So it is written.

So let it be done! You will be the envy of Scouters everywhere and may start a new trend. You must have great faith in your Scout's abilities!

CC

Obivously Crew21_Adv you are doing something wrong!

As a teenager our Explorer Advisor had us "properly trained"

and he would receive his coffee at his tent in the morning!

Must have been something in the old Explorer training that was removed when it switched to Venturing. Probably has something to do with Youth Protection and hot coffee (remember McDonald's?)

CC

Scouting Again

Thanks! That is exactly the problem with these rules! One thing leads to another and soon we are drinking only water from the streams and eating dandelions. Nope can't do that it isn't leave no trace.

There'll be anarchy!

Maybe one solution is to have certain rules for certian activities. No sodas backpacking but there are pop machines at Summer Camp. No chocolate when it is hot weather but OK in cold - if not in bear country!

Yours in the joy of Scouting,

CC

p.s. I drink Diet COKE - so no Pepsi products will be allowed on camp outs!

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John in KC - Howdy neighbor to the north!

As I stated there is usually some good reasoning behind silly rules and laws. ( You know like those emails you get with lists of laws from the 1800's that make absolutely no sense today, but are still on the books.) Often these rules in the units I am sure start from a particular experience in the unit.

Of course it is easier to say no soda than pick up your cans. We have also had 1/2 empty kool-aid cups lying around and the paper cups scattered. So As I said I am sure there are reasons.

But also as my wife continually reminds me - we need to explain why the rule exists. I think that the subject is much deeper than just silly rules. It is as E stated helping boys to think about situations and problems and devising solutions. To think for themselves and thus grow into mature young men.

Wow, who knew - thanks for the feedback and making me think!

CC

Does your unit have silly camp rules.

I am sure that like silly laws they have some reasoning behind them.

Some of the rules I think are silly are:

No soda (coke for those in the south, pop for some midwesters)

I went camping ( as an adult) once with a troop that had this rule. I popped open my can of Diet Coke in the morning and was told by more than one person they did not allow sodas on camp outs. I told them they should ban coffee too. The other Scouters said nothing else to me about it.

No camp chairs or stools.

This from a troop that takes everything in multiple troop trailers!

No candy

I can see some reasons this could be a rule - but none were given.

Wearing Uniform while traveling for insurance purposes.

Still folks who think this! In fact had the discussion last weekend and was told they would show me "where it is written." ( I believe in unofrms while travelling to show that we are scouts)

Any others out there?

CC

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540

Thanks for taking the time to write and share your experience.

Last week I was thinking of maybe starting another troop. I understand it is hardwork. Then I thought better of it and decided my marriage is more important!

I also was wanting a break from being "in charge" i.e. "the administrator" after 5 years doing it for the pack.

I will go to the "leader's meeting" next week to see what transpires.

If it does not look like we will be able to make positive change in this troop I will suggest to my son we "take the summer off" to look for a new troop and start fresh in the fall. He won't even turn 11 til next month so we really won't be losing time by waiting.

YIS,

Campcrafter