campcrafter

Thanks for the responses.

Yes some behaviors as Ed mentioned would require immediate action. I am sure that those boys probably had been at least warned previously for other unacceptable behaviors. Few people will tell someone to F off just out of the blue and be a surprise to everyone, but it does happen. Usually people who bottle stuff up inside till they blow. However that is rare among adolescent boys I would think.

MSNOWMAN - What type of non-conformance in a den meeting required calling a parent? I am asking because I want to know level of behavior. Many times I wished I had called a parent. However many times too the boy's parent was there and was of little help after they had heard me call down their boy a number of times. I never asked them to remove their son though and maybe I should have. I still don't know, but want to be better prepared with Boy Scouts and and longer camps and greater safety risks.

Thanks

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Many on the forum mention the unit they serve uses the 3 strikes approach to discipline that goes something like this

1. verbal warning

2. 2nd warning and call parents to advise of situation

3. call parents to come pick-up boy

My questions are what types of behavior gets a boy to number 3.

Certainly soemthing such as continued fight picking on a campout - but what about a boy who just keeps talking, joking interrupting the program? still 3 strikes or does he get some foul balls to save him?

Have you ever gotten to the third strike and called a parent to come get their son? How did the parents react?

I really need to know what kind of misbehavior warrants a third strike, I can see a few of our boys getting there or maybe it's my harsh view.

thanks

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I have to agree with both you Bobs

While our forum may not be as nasty as others - at times we could do better seeing as we are Scouters and should be more mindful of our words by our obligation to the Scout Law.

Too often I think I for one look at the ideal and then look at those persons around me and tend to follow the crowd rather than the ideal.

Something I'm trying to work on.

CC

Fred, Thanks for the explanantion. No distress just curious. And all who find it of value for debate, thanks for your responses. I defer to the forum.

And by the way Fred you get 1 credit toward sainthood for performing a miracle - you got Ed and Merlyn to agree on something!

Post on!

YIS,

ron(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

Why Fred do you find it necessary to post news stories that instigate discord among forum members. You post without comment and don't join in the fray. Do you just enjoy watching other people argue?

I don't think you are providing any service to the forum posting these articles since they can be gotten from numerous sources for anyone interested in finding them.

Is it just me or do others feels this way?

What is your motive Fred?

YIS,

CC

Ah you folks from the southeast thinking pigs is good bbq. Now even this RC boy knows that ain't Kosher. But brisket is and that is the BBQ there is - us Texas folks know reall BBQ is BEEF!

Course here in Missouri they put the bbq sauce in a bottle on the table, what's up with that? KC does have some passable Q but nothing like Demeris' down in Houston!

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P330

Of course only you and your spouse can make the decision.

But what I hear from you is you need a break and from what you say regarding the number of children you have and one on the way - your family needs you more right now. As the kids grow and become more involved you can get reinvolved with them at some level comfortable for you.

Like all organizations those in charge go to the people who are the easiest sell and always say yes when asked to help (80/20 rule). It is only natural. But to me now is your time to say "sorry, but I am not available, I need to spend more time with my family."

That's what you should do - OK I don't really know what you should do, but you asked.

Best to you whatever you and your beloved decide.

CC

ScoutingAgain

Traditional BBQ?

Do they accept - even know what it is - in MASS.?

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Ed,

Glad we agree on something!

Actually I am sure we agree on much more than we disagree.

__

While it is good that they raised $150,000 for "the organization" what did the organization have to pay for North's fee and expenses? Guys like that don't come speak cause they like you.

Key Information

Keynote fee Please Call

Oliver travels from Washington, DC.

He requires first class airfare for 2; non-stop flights to closest commercial airport

see: http://premierespeakers.com/1016/index.cfm

CC(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

SSScout

Please PM me regarding Campfire

campcrafter@yahoo.com

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"the world changes, and not always for the better"

I don't remeber where that quote came from - some movie?

I agree some of the dynamics may change How ever I don't think girls would be a change for the worse.

I do think it should be up to the CO to decide if co-ed or not.

I think it is enevitable. Look at the rest of the world we live in. Even BSA is no longer a male retreat.

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R7V

I think you're fantasizing - thinking you are part of the UP!

If you were really part of the UP you would have created an opportunity (and a scene) to correct Scouters at B&G w/ Eagle patches. You would also seek youth from other units to accost about improper uniforming, having them pull up their trousers to check for red bands on socks. Yeah, you're fantazing about being a uniform cop.!

I agree w/Purcel. As Scoutmaster it is your job to lead your boys and that includes teaching them proper uniforming. I personally would avoid mentioning any uniforming to any other adult no matter how wrong.

Ain't my business - I have more important things to worry about. The guy with the flap and whatever may have gotten it as a hand-me down or from a thrift shop and left everyhting on. Not right but - again ain't my problem.

I would suggest that since many don't read the lit that a large illustrated article be placed in the Scouter newsparer for your council. I think most probably at least look through that when it comes in the mail. Maybe some member of the UP here could write it?

CC

I agree about the collar looking much better turned under with N. The collars are rathe large and can be unconfortable turned under so I would have no problem with removing it.

I also think the N should be larger and thereby more practical for the 101 uses listed in older HBfB.

It is sad that neckerchief slides today are DULL. Either store bought or a twist tie OR worse yet no slide with N tied in a knot.

I would like to see more crafted slides and hope to introduce this to our troop.

CC

PS. SSScout did you get my PM from other thread?

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Hunt wrote: I would note that allowing girls in would BY FAR lead to the biggest changes in the program,

How so? What specific changes in program?

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Kahuna

I understand. This forum can make one crazy. I have been thinking of doing same - but have yet to be able to pull myself away. I keeping thinking some of these folks will see the light. But I am sure they think the same of me.

So I may follow your example and step away. Maybe we should start a 12 step program

I truly hope I did not contribute to the cause of your leaving and if at any time I posted inappropriately regarding you or your faith, my sincere apologies.

You will be missed here. I hope our paths cross in the future.

pax,

ron

"As previously posted there is an option for co-ed Venturing Honor Society and that is the Corps of Discovery idea coming from the Lewis and Clark Expedition Corps of Discovery. This idea seems to be outdoor oriented and it is not known quite how ships, or arts and hobbies, religous life and sports crews would react to it. It is on the crew level and does not interfere with the OA at all."

Sounds like "seperate but equal" which is never equal as we found out regarding education 50 years ago.

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OGE wrote:

"You have to be 14 to join a Crew, if it takes 18 months to 24 months for a Venturer to get the required camping nights in and earn the Bronze Out Door award (no mean feat I will tell you), the earliest a Venturing youth could qualify for the OA is roughly 15 1/2 - 16. What is the average age in your area of Boy Scout ordeal candidates? Would this be a workable situation?"

"On a completely sexist note, if they let Venturing Girls be OA members, I predict 6 years from that date the National Chief with be a Cheiftess and just about every Lodge Chief will be female. Its got to do with Ages and Stages"

OGE - that is sexist and I disagree with your predictions. So what is your point. Female leaders are allowed and they are much older than the average age of boy candidates.

My opinion is if girl Venturers are not allowed in OA then NO female should be allowed.

Being that the OA is more youth run than other parts of the program, I also believe that no adult should be called out and initiated. You can have advisors who aren't "members". We have lots of SMs who were never scouts and can't ever earn First Class why should they be allowed to earn OA honors?

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Wouldn't in most states a man & women who have lived as a couple for 15 years be considered a common law marriage?

One resource for info on this you all might check out is the Amercian Camping Association's web site for camp parents and in particular

http://www.campparents.org/homesickness.php

Looks like where Mr.Mal got his info.

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acco

The BSA Oath and Law, which is as are each country's oath and lawunique to to this country, have a rich history of nearly one hundred years and I am in no way suggesting they be changed.

But as a point of history B-P did not have Reverent in his original Law and he also made a provision for "non-believers" with the outlander promise

The Outlander Promise

On my honour,

I promise that I will do my best,

To render service to my country;

To help other people,

And to keep the Scout Law.

Baden-Powell wrote this alternative oath called the Outlander Promise for Scouts who could not, for reasons of conscience, recognize a duty to a King, for individuals or members of religions that do not worship a deity, and for members of orthodox religions that do not use the name of God in secular settings.

So I do not see whay BSA could not have an alternative. The argument is of course then it is no longer one program and the public would not know what the person - supposedly - stands for by saying they are a Scout.

Which brings me back to Buddhists - who as I understand it- do not worship a deity. Still confuses me that BSA doesn't have problem with that but does with the UUA.

(Kahuna - with respect - I personally do not have a problem with Buddhists or anyone's belief or unbelief - I am just trying to point out what I see an inconsistancyin BSA)

Also as I understand it, but may be wrong - one of the BSA's objections to the UUA emblem was the use of their pamphlet "When Others Say God" - I have read that pamphlet and think that it should not only be used for the UUA award program but for BSA in general to explain the 12th point

REVERENT - A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

CC

But what eagleB?

If he is clean and sober and has something to offer in the way of teaching scouting skills then I see no reason he should not be a leader. Sure if his sobriety is recent then by all means keep an eye on him. But not only is he doing something good by helping the troop, the troop is helping him by giving him something worhtwhile and meaningful to do. Also - probably at some later time - he can share his experience with the boys and help them not to make the same mistakes.

There but for the Grace of God go we.

OSHO,

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I admit first off to being more of a Seton fan.

I give the devil his due and am sure that West had much to do with the quick success that the BSA had. From what little I have read of him though I also think West might have been along the lines of a J Edgar Hoover with his power over the organization.

I doubt that the BSA would have failed without him - it was a world wide movement with lots of support in this country and it would have survived though maybe different.

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CalicoPenn wrtoe in the other thread: It seems interesting to me that the BSA tells units on one hand that they can set their own membership requirements (within the rules of the BSA of course) that allows a unit to say no Wiccans, Catholics, Baptists, Jews, etc. allowed , thus preserving the unit's right of free association while at the same time telling units they can't allow athiests or gays in, which seems to me to violate unit's right of free association. This is a wishy-washy and ultimately untenable position to take - my opinion is that if the BSA is going to make the determination of what the rights of free association for the BSA is going to be, they have to do it all the way - to me that means if they tell units that may have no problem with gays or athiests that they can't have them, they have to tell units that may have a problem with (pick your religion here) that they cannot refuse to take them as long as they are allowed in the BSA by the corporation's rules.

Interesting and I feel stupid for not having seen it this way before.

So what you are saying Calico (pardon the redundancy) is I have the right to freely associate with who I want in the BSA as long as they are not on the "rejection list" issued by BSA. And if they are on the list and I wish to freely associate with them by having them join the unit to which I belong, my right of free association is invalidated.

However, if my unit /CO wishes to add to the "rejection list" - it may.

Friendly & Kind, eh?

Who makes these policies? Did the membership at large get to vote? Reminds me of a particular religious denomination to which I also belong.

Working for change beating a dead horse,

cc

So pointing and squirting water from a device shaped like a gun is not ok, but squirting water at someone with a hose or a pump is ok?

How silly is that.

Off to design and market the Scout Water Squirter.

CC

By the way what is definition of projectile? Is water really a projectile?(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

Since we do not know any details at all about the situation, one cannot say they are running away and have not stepped up to try and rectify the situation.

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