ThenNow

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

My feelings on this would be more "We caught him, I hope he is convicted (kind of hard not to be with him appearing on video) and is given the maximum possible sentence."  Now let's see what needs to be changed to reduce the chance of something similar occuring again.

You made some great points and I appreciate the thought you put into it. Thanks for the info on the layout and composition of the facilities. If, as you think may be the case, these were single rooms, capturing that amount of activity on a single camera still seems suspicious. I think there is more to the story.

So, I assume any post mortem assessment to help reduce a repeat performance happens at the camp level? The LC? Who would be doing the review and who will receive the benefit of the “report,” though I’ve heard no one say there are any such documents? Has anyone ever looked at the impact of CSA accusations, maybe even specifically convictions, on Troops, LCs and camps. In the Case of Camp S Bar F Ranch, David Lee Nelson was convicted of XYZ for acts committed in July of 2021. Camp attendance for that year was #__. Following the incident, #__ parents withdrew their registered Cubs from Cub Days. The victims sued the Ranch, Scouters, the LC...and the case settled out of court. Camp registrations for the following year were down by 28%, and etc. 

45 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

As @Eagle94-A1pointed out, this guy has apparently been doing this elsewhere.

I guess I missed this part. Where did my brain freeze? Better yet, run it by me again. I’ll try to keep my noggin near the Sterno in the meantime.

34 minutes ago, yknot said:

Pretty horrific. 

Yes and I mean that. Now choose one boy whose abuse checks all or most of the boxes for aggravating factors/multipliers. Lay out his story. Take mine, if you’d like. Nearly 7 years’ worth. Again, I agree with the use of the word, but how do we describe my abuse? Robert’s, Life’s, John’s, Eagle1970’s, Bronco’s, AnonEagle’s, 100th Eagle’s, RandomScouter’s...and the other guys speaking up here, those who are listening and all the others of us. What word or words do we use. My point is, there are none. When we find one or a couple, let’s try to do the same for the aftermath. Words fail.

32 minutes ago, Life said:

For many of us (me) this all brings up the unseen effects of the molest. The years of psychic pain, confusion, loss of self. Actually, the complete loss of self. I likened to being a cute little wind up toy Wound up at birth and sent on its path. In perfect direction on course to a chance at all that is so easily received in life by many. Then some bully comes along and kicks it, HARD, sending the toy hurling through the air, then crash right into a wall! Now laying on its side, dented, scratched, and broken. The toy is set back on its feet. Still walking but now in circles, now it makes funny noises. Now it seems defective and used inappropriately. Now sent off its original trajectory. Never to be the same again. Repairs are made, but it will always function differently then had it never been kicked. We scolded the bully and at least the other toys are fine. 

Sir, this is extremely well said. Poetic even, in a very painful “hits the broken thumb squarely” once again kind of way. I am 100% convinced this is the untold story that seldom enters the discussion, here or elsewhere, mainly because it is gruesome and uncomfortable. As I have said, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It’s the aftermath. 

I don’t know how far back you read but we had a nice jousting session after I brought up the term “soul murder” as coined by Leonard Shengold in his heralded book, Soul Murder: The Effects of Childhood Abuse and Neglect (2017). It was curious when I likened child sexual abuse to the murder of a soul. Ironically, I was almost virtually assisinated for making such a claim. “Where’s the body, if there was a murder?” I launched into “I’ll show you the body!! How much time do you have?” People don’t get this. I told a therapist years ago that child sexual abuse is the original identity thief.

You said it so well, brother. So very, very well. I hate that you know this reality so deeply that you could paint such a picture, but hopefully it helps drive home this critical point.

1 hour ago, yknot said:

the BSA investigation and reporting part. 

I’m quoting myself to further enhance my importance. As an NA old timer likes to say, “Yeah. I’m still a legend in my own mind and I’m still leading man in my favorite action movies. I just don’t believe my commercials no more.”

I would so love to be able to do this on my abuser. How did he get to our Troop in the first place? He lived all the way across town, was newly married and fresh out of the army. Why our Troop? He was completely unknown. Didn’t belong to our Parish. Grew up and went to the Catholic school and church across town. Did someone know him? From where? Was he introduced to the parents? The old SM? The CO? Was he a Scout as a boy? Beats me. I don’t recall him ever mentioning it. How did he buy beer and porn for kids for years and no one though anything of it. The drinking was no great secret. It baffles me and that doesn’t even get into the physical perpetration that stretched at least a decade. Hm...

55 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

In this case it appears the system worked the way it should have.  Something happened, and as soon as discovered was reported, resulting in an arrest.

There are, as is obvious, two systems. Right? One before and one after. I would argue, there must be three. The YPT part, the criminal investigation and the BSA investigation and reporting part. In this abuse context, #2 seems to have been engaged. We don’t know if it can be said to have “worked” until further down the road. 

In addition to the failure of #1, I’m keen to learn what happens with #3 Or not. How deeply into the backstory of the “means and opportunity” of this abuse will the examination delve, not just by law enforcement? What of all the ancillary human factors that made it possible? Did he know there would be sexual activities, apparently including CSA, going on where he set up his camera? Pretty coincidental. Were there others who were secondarily or primarily involved in means, opportunity and/or perpetration? Did they collaborate? Were kids encouraged or dared to have sex in there? It definitely happens. If so, who said what to whom? If this was a known spot, was it historic? Single incident? This sort of secret knowledge can be passed down from year to year. It’s not uncommon. Having ALL of this information is what can save children this horror going forward. Not, “Whew! We caught him. Thank God that’s over.”

7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding the videotaping at a camp shower, if I can find the link, I will post. Read an article where one college guy recorded over 18 ladies in bathrooms and showers. He  would go in the bathroom before them, set up the cameras, and record. He did this at his and other folks homes. The cameras are extremely difficult to spot.

Is that a new Scouting location? College Dorm High Adventure Base? I don’t recall a YPT or Scout Oath and Law associated with my university experience. As awful as that is, it is not what we’re talking about...

Dorm, homes, whatever.

10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Don't be too sure of that. Climbing harnesses and Swiss seats can be tricky put on. I know I was extremely careful putting those on females back in the day. Also knew one couple, both climbers, who swore they did some nighttime activities on a tower.

10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Two consenting adults staff members were sent home for fooling around in a canoe at one camp I worked at.

And, I once threw a TicTac into the air and it came down and landed in my buddy’s ear and he had to have emergency surgery because it punctured his eardrum and somehow migrated to his Palatine tonsil before it slid down and blocked his esophagus, having turned sideways. TicTacs are now banned at that camp. Come on. You know what we’re talking about...

2 minutes ago, elitts said:

my experience with US society tells me that we probably won't be capable of examining one organization "first" without the public assumption being that the problems only exist there simply because other organizations haven't been studied yet.  Instead what often seems to happen is that whenever some new problem gets studied, the first few organizations to be examined get totally demonized as "the sole blemish staining our society" in public opinion as and only years down the road when we've finally discovered "holy crap, I guess this really DOES happen everywhere" do we get around to figuring out what kinds of societal changes need to be made to help fix a problem. 

I agree with you here, for sure. We have a horribly short attention span and equally poor memory. I think that’s why a movement is needed to make this happen. I think that was MYCVASTORY’s point about the equivalent of a Funny Pink Hat Brigade and mine about getting it down to state and precinct rep level. We often think once we kill the Zombie in front of us, that’s game, set and match. Hello? There are ten more coming around that wrecked bus up yonder. Sorry. I can’t stop with the Zombies. They are just so universally applicable. 

5 minutes ago, elitts said:

Where isn't a child at risk of being sexually abused?

You have made the point beautifully. Let’s find out. Where are the highest risks and where less so? What situations are the most dangerous and put kids at the most risk? Why not choose a scenario that is ripe and ready? Start with a thorough examination of BSA. See who, what, where, when, why and how in the world all of this happened. Based on what we learn, we’ll know more about what to do and what not to do. Then, we do it again with another context and play it forward...

11 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

Now I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes, not for myself, but for the realization that boys have certainly continued to be abused at the same camp for all of these years.

I’m with ya.

12 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

There will always be an abuser and always be a hidden spot for them to prey on the kids. 

2 Deep and YPT don’t require someone to tail a “chaperone” while he sets up cameras. Back to those devious, evil people. Did he plan or orchestrate the sexual activities and physical abuse, too? Where does this go? Ack.

14 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

The PR will cause parents to reconsider membership

I’m incredibly curious how stuff like this lands on the ears, minds and heart of Scouting parents, present and near future. Is it mentioned or considered? Discussed? Or, it’s a matter of, “Wow, but NO WAY that would EVER happen at OUR camp...”?

8 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

50+ years after my abuse at this Scout Camp, it is still occurring.  While details are lacking, there are both sexual abuse and hidden cameras involved.  It was a troop counselor, not an employee.  One of the smartest things I have ever done was prohibiting my children from being scouts.  I am speechless.

There is only so much head shaking I can do before my brains dribble out my ears. Yeah. Awful and so gruesomely poignant for you. I am truly sorry. I shared the previously posted news clip with friends and family last night. I didn’t see the details and had no idea of the connection to you, of course. Good grief.  I’ll join you in the “no words” ante room.

15 minutes ago, yknot said:

One positive result that could come out of the BSA bankruptcy is if it sparks a broader conversation on CSA in society. There are scattered CSA statistics and studies but they compare apples to rocks to feathers.  It's hard to draw conclusions about what kinds of settings are most risky and what prevention works other than under the broadest of generalities.  I think that might come, but it would be more likely after the BSA process, not as part of it. 

Related to this, I’ve been wondering if a collaborative effort could be forged between CHILDUSA and BSA survivors coming out of this process. We have “representatives” in every state and territory, and then, scattered throughout each. We would create a powerful voice and contingent that would be hard to ignore. That effort would likely draw out others to become faces and voices, as well. I don’t mean as a banner of BSA BAD, rather to bring the issue forward in a way that doesn’t turn on one case, one organization or one celebrity’s story. I’ve often wondered why issues like CSA and child exploitation, generally, don’t have more publicly known champions. On this subject, I only know of Marci Hamilton, as I lightning rod on the NGO side, and Tim Kosnoff on the legal. Jeff Anderson has done a lot too, I guess, as have some of the other attorneys whose names escape me at the moment. I know. The Red Beret Brigade. Oh, wait. Guardian Angles got that. Never mind...

19 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

As a reminder to all: the Coalition did the same thing. Their initial Rule 2019 statement was sparse (at best) and it wasn't until months of litigation and hearing before the judge that the Coalition released more info.

Coalition's Rule 2019 disclosure (July 2020) was a mere 3 pages https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/836358_1053.pdf

It's Amended Disclosure (August 2020) was up to 4 pages https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/840142_1106.pdf

That's when other parties (in particular the insurance companies) began filing demands for the Coalition to release more information. Even the U.S. Trustee and the TCC came in and said the Coalition had to do better than that.

By October and a court hearing the Coalition filed its Second Amended Disclosure this time coming it at over 125 pages https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/853761_1429.pdf

Thanks. But why drag it out like that? What was gained if they would inevitably be forced to make disclosures? Well, even if it wasn’t inevitable. This is the stuff that makes the case look even more terrible than it is. These are attorneys for the victims for gosh sakes. Why in the world should they need to hide anything if they’re on the up and up? It may be totally misplaced, but it baffles and disgusts me. Lots of disgust to go around of late.

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Judge: Yes, this was focused on Kosnoff/AIS, not the Coalition.

Judge: Mr. Kosnoff "has now involved himself in this case through AIS and through the letters filed in this court and is now subject to 2019." "We need to know who represents these parties."

Wilks trying to clean this up. He's failing.

I can barely remember the year and know little to nothing about 2019 disclosures, so back to the judge’s punchline. Why did they fight this so hard? What, prey tell, might be behind curtain number three where Carol Merrill is standing? Inquiring minds want to know. What are they afraid of, if one can speculate? As for me, I’m afraid the info will be sealed and I’ll be left on the cliff just dangling here. 

28 minutes ago, 100thEagleScout said:

I have Kosnoff.  He’s been more representative than Eisenberg, but is more or less making the big decisions.  I have had pretty much zero contact with Eisenberg.  Mostly I’ve spoken to my attorneys in ZS and Kosnoff.

Thanks for telling us. So, you’re able to speak with him directly? That’s great compared to some of the other reports we’ve heard. If it’s okay, and you may have said this, were you connected to him via the ad campaign? 

8 minutes ago, yknot said:

BSA has access to decades of its own internal data that it could be using to produce incident reports that could inform leaders when, why, where, and how incidents of CSA are occurring. There is no transparency however.

You beat me to it. I was in the middle of editing my post to add:

PS - I look at it as a certified audit. “Here. Come on it. We have nothing to hide. Please poke around and let us know what you find. We are an open book.” And, yes, I welcome that in my life. Good, bad and ugly. Will those disclosures and findings be the undoing? I don’t know. Would inviting the risk to find out be the Scout-like, “trustworthy, loyal, helpful...” and honorable thing to do. Without question.

1 minute ago, skeptic said:

Cute; but it really dodges the question.  The issue with BSA is far larger than just the BSA.  It is a massive problem in most youth serving groups, and even more so in the governmental oversight agencies.  That is to what I refer.  

Thanks. I thought it most clever, indeed.

It doesn’t dodge it at all. Not in the least. This is not a philosophical or theological conversation. Foundationally, yes, but practically and logistically that wrangle is completely meaningless without strategic and tactical implementation. I think, and it’s only my perspective but you have reinforced my view many times, you just hate the idea of the BSA being the first to get the proverbial bite. Do you start solving for and curing a disease by treating every carrier simultaneously? Something goes under the microscope. As for me and my house, I vote for the Boy Scouts of America. And so say we all. 

3 minutes ago, skeptic said:

" I do also like the idea of widespread AG investigations. They are overdue and appropriate."  Would that apply beyond the BSA?  If not, then it is simply ignoring the elephant in the room, IMHO.   

Um. How do you eat an elephant, class? Let’s all answer in unison, please. On the count of three. 1, 2, 3:

One. Bite. At. A. Time.

38 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

The final result of National' bankruptcy.  Just wondering what survivors would consider a "good result." (Considering the inherent infirmity of the legal system to undo the damage that has been done.) I'm not looking for a dollar amount-that will be whatever it ends up being.

Yeah. Thanks for the direction. I’m not going to be at all technical, which I guess I never am.

Honestly, I don’t see a “good” personal result for many/most of us. Emotionally, this has been a “terrible, horrible, no good and very bad”...year and counting. “Chainsaws and backhoes and nail guns, oh my!” Consolation would be money, BSA exposure and full disclosure, investigations and the non-monetary YPT demands seriously implemented. Oh. And some money. Did I mention money? Little or no money would totally blow. For me, I can’t overstate that for reasons I explained back when. 

Now that someone mentioned coinage, 50,000+ from closed states will be bitterly fought, IF we have no clear path around the SoL defense. Add to that the questionable ability to force on the insurers all that’s proposed in the RSA/Plan etc. and you end up with that protracted surgery I’ve spoken of so eloquently. My wife has been in the insurance and high level risk management industry for 36 years and she is very dubious about what she’s read and heard via her husband’s attorney and the WSJ. The entire thing is on very shaky legs, in my opinion. Those who came in with a clear shot at the recovery target in state court will fair the best financially, assuming the money is there and the insurers can be made to pay. It’s a bloody mess and you can’t get blood stains out of the carpet. 

A very important value will be whatever can be done to improve youth protection and the elimination/significant reduction of future abuse. I do not pretend a goose egg is achievable on that ledger. I just don’t. Aim for it, but don’t count on it. Bad people are often very smart people. Good people are often trusting and gullible people. The combination will always yield some measure of unfortunate results. I think what the TCC, Coalition and FCR are trying to do on that score is noble. If it “works” and is implemented longterm, it will be heartening. I also think it could be a model for other organizations. Time will tell. I hope it will be good, have legs and be a template, but my confidence in implementation and/or longevity is not overflowing. I do also like the idea of widespread AG investigations. They are overdue and appropriate. 

5 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I had to step away, but I saw the first part where the judge was saying that while AIS may have been a dysfunctional organization, it was nevertheless an organization that could be bubject to Rule 2019.

The punchline was, “Why are you fighting this so hard?” Which she repeated as he cut her off to do a child’s “But, but, but…MOM!!” She actually ruled for disclosure, but it kind of went wide and now circling with Eisenberg and Coalition.  

Just said Kosnoff is fully subject to 2019 because “he involved himself in this case.” Confirmed he’s not subject to depo, however.

David Wilks has some serious Gregory Hines level tap chops. Or not! I am enjoying this drowning effort to fight the Kosnoff Law/AIS 2019 disclosures. Finally, legit comic relief during these hearings. Love, love, love it! 

Just now, ThenNow said:

Yeah. Right?!?! WHAT in the H-E double hockey sticks was THAT about. I almost spit out my coffee all over my MacBook. It’s old and I need a new, but knock that off Mr. Buchbinder. I love ya, but ack.

In fact, I might email Philip Anker and ask him to raise his hand and enter my digits into the record. 

8 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said:

Apparently someone's office got a call to suggest the BSA could use a shout-out.  Every victim can now reflect on what anniversary it is of their abuse.  It's time for the court to be reminded of that before this hearing ends.

Yeah. Right?!?! WHAT in the H-E double hockey sticks was THAT about. I almost spit out my coffee all over my MacBook. It’s old and I need a new, but knock that off Mr. Buchbinder. I love ya, but ack.

1 minute ago, johnsch322 said:

 

Hypothetically what if Kosnoff legally represents no one?  Could he just have been used as a figurehead for AIS and the actual representation is Eisenberg? It appears that he was trying to avoid paying his ex-wife alimony.  Could he just have had a verbal agreement for monies?  

 

Worth noting he no longer has a law license, per reports and the insurers digging. He is now putting himself forward as a “consultant.”