Armymutt

2 hours ago, yknot said:

I don't know how the new law affects this but in the past, affiliated or even unaffiliated tribes had a pathway to request them for funerary ceremonies if remains or if objects for their own musuems.   

I'm not sure how this is a good idea, especially if that tribe engaged in actions that made another tribe go extinct.  

I wonder how you repatriate artifacts to extinct tribes. 

A 5-Scout troop is doable.  I know a troop near St. Louis that hasn't had much more than that for the past 25 years.  It actually made logistics easy.  You'll have to coach the kids a bit more if they are inexperienced, but it can be fun.  As far as resources, what do you mean?  

On 12/3/2023 at 8:22 PM, Ojoman said:

Check out the Federal Boy Scouts of America Equal Access Act https://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/ocr/boyscouts.html  

school districts are required by federal statute to provide the same access to scouts that they allow for any other outside group. If they bring in outside agencies, distribute any sort of flyer for sports, community events or activities that involve any outside group they must do the same for scouts. Don't use this as a club... use it to help them control access to students. Tell them that there are only a couple of groups on the list that might ever ask for any accomodation so the district can limit access to only those that are on the list. I had a very nice chat with our superintendent and ended up having the school not only pass out fliers but also running a PSA that you can download from National and they displayed posters in the school and invited us to have a table at the family fun back to school night. We ended up with over 20 families interested. 

 

I don't know if the schools will let us in or not.  Either way, there's no one to get into the schools.  I live 600 miles away.  Schools near the pack aren't in session on weekends.  My kids go to school 30 minutes away.  Until the kids in the pack start inviting their classmates or their parents volunteer to run a table on open house nights, we aren't getting into the schools.

On 12/4/2023 at 10:53 AM, fred8033 said:

Don't use fundraising as a decision factor.  It's noise; annoying yes, but still noise.  Key factors are fun and involvement and a healthy environment.  

For us, it's a pretty big factor.  It's very demoralizing to expend hours in front of a store with the kids and receive very little from it.  Even worse is when those who don't put in the time and effort receive the same benefits.  We get the excuse of "I don't have time."  I drive 600 miles, get in at midnight, and am up at 6AM to pick up popcorn, take it to the site, and stand there to sell it for 2 hours.  

On 12/2/2023 at 3:27 PM, RememberSchiff said:

@Armymutt   Did your scouts have fun with the other, closer pack this weekend?

Did you have fun?

RS

The CM and I had some discussions this weekend.  He's also fed up with the lack of participation from parents and so-called leaders.  He's considering a pack that meets on Sunday for his younger son.  He has some behavior issues that get worse after being in school all day. Add in that he doesn't behave well when his dad is in charge of things, and a change of scenery might be best for them.  We also talked to other pack leaders.  The boys had fun.  They didn't interact with the kids from the pack we are considering very much, but my son really liked hanging out with a kid who was considering joining us but didn't due to the meeting night of the week.  One of my biggest issues is their fundraising policy.  In our program, the Scouts gets credit for 100% of the commission earned.  The pack keeps any donations.  If we ever needed to buy anything, it would go into the annual budget and become part of dues across the board.  We feel this is the most fair method since it rewards Scout (and parents) for hard work.  These other packs are on a tier basis.  One pack maxes out at 30% of the commission, meaning that in order to simply pay for the renewal, the Scout has to sell $1800 worth of popcorn.  In our pack, that would cover renewal, pack dues (advancement, PWD car, B&G, end of year den advancement party, Christmas party, adult registrations, unit recharter, and a t-shirt), day camp, a new uniform, and the two council campouts each year.  

How do other packs recruit?  We can't get into the schools.  I've tried to nudge the DLs to plan hikes or something in the neighborhoods around where we meet.  I figure that might generate some interest.  So far, they haven't done it.  Hopefully the Army moves me back home this summer and I can get a little more hands-on with things.  Right now, we will probably continue until my oldest has AOL, then look to move with my daughter.  

23 minutes ago, Tron said:

So you're pack is small which limits your access to adults. Think about the pool of volunteers something like this: There are only so many adults that are at the same time capable of volunteering and able to volunteer. So what you have to do is grow your pack to a level of scouts that gives you access to enough capable and able adults. Typically that number is 30-45 scouts. 

Hard to grow when I'm the only one doing anything.  I don't expect every parent to be as dedicated as I am, but I expect them to at least participate when we have a pack meeting.  How hard is it to cheer for a Scout when they receive an award?  The only reason we have den leaders is because I told the parents that there will be no den unless they do it.  Another den got ADLs because the DL failed to put in any advancement for two months.  Their kids were getting no awards and they got fed up.

I wish we could do this.  However, of the 5 adults in attendance, 4 are already "Leaders" - the CM, Treasurer, and 2 Bear ADLs.  I really think the best course of action is to combine the units.  We currently have 2 Lions, 2 Tigers, 2 Wolves, 4 Bears, and 4 Webelos, of which one will drop at the end of the year.  

25 minutes ago, skeptic said:

And of course, there is much of the issue in our society, liability based on a warped legal system that allows these suits, most settled due to the exorbitant cost of fighting the case.  Add to that, illogical jurors who too often allow common sense to fly away when confronted with a sympathetic situation.  

There are other factors.  For example, it gives a sheltered person something to do besides sit on their cot all day.  Adds a little bit of their normal routine back to their life and gives them the opportunity to practice the human-animal bond.  The animals get to see and interact with their owners, reducing stress.  Most of the people running these facilities are far too busy to be engaging in routine pet care.  The intake, examinations, sanitation, and other operations take up enough time.  

23 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Perhaps instead of problematic trailers, how about Scouts helping (exercising animals!) at a designated emergency network of existing brick and mortar animal boarders, shelters, and vet clinics? 

 

As yknot said, it's a liability thing, both on the side of the volunteer and the owner.  As a person operating a facility, I wouldn't want to take responsibility if Fluffy slips her collar and runs off while I'm walking her.  As a pet owner, I wouldn't want to be responsible if Fluffy bites some volunteer.  It's safer for everyone if Disaster Response volunteers stick to disaster response operations and let the owners take care of their pets.  These aren't rescue shelters for unowned or lost animals.  They are places for people to house their animals while they are living in a shelter.  

I was at a veterinary conference early in November.  One of my areas of interest is disaster response.  The state has a group of volunteer vets that respond to emergencies.  One of the roles I thought of that would be great for Scouts is operating a temporary pet housing facility.  The owners are responsible for the care and feeding of their pets.  The facility operators simply establish it from a trailer provided by the state (sounds like a troop going camping) and process pets into the facility.  At the end, everything get cleaned up and the trailer is returned to the owning entity.  

7 hours ago, Tron said:

You can't carry the pack on your own. Have you voiced these same concerns to the other parents and leaders? 

I can't even get a response when asking about planning the PWD.  Parents just sit.  It's getting more and more frustrating every week.  The WDL won't publish a schedule or even give the parents an idea of how he plans to complete the program given the concerns I have raised with him.  I would love to plan some really cool activities, but I'm afraid no one will show up and those that do will just stand around expecting to be entertained.  

Tonight was our November pack meeting.  None of the DLs showed up.  I think we have 14 active Scouts and 6 were in attendance.  One DL didn't bother to communicate that he wasn't coming.  I'm getting tired of being one of the only ones who cares.  We have a Webelos parent who didn't bother coming inside to even pay for her son's renewal, let alone be present for him to receive his advancement.    Our next meeting will be the pack meeting in December because our CO won't let us meet there for the next two weeks.  I'm tired of the apathy from parents and leaders alike.  I'm even more tired of having to fight people to improve the program.  We drive an extra 5 miles because this pack is at our church, despite the church treating us as just some outside organization using their buildings.  We have a Webelos/Scouts BSA campout this weekend.  It's being championed by a pack closer to us.  I like the CM and it seems like the parents are actually interested in being involved.  I think this will serve as a sort of interview for that pack.  The problem is, if my family leaves, our current pack will collapse in short order.  I'm the CC.  My wife is the treasurer.  The CM lacks initiative and communication skills.  The secretary is just holding a title.  The ACM rarely shows up and is also the Lion DL.  It's very frustrating trying to run things from 600 miles away and not getting at least a little effort on the part of everyone else in keeping this train on the tracks.  I'm the one traveling an hour away to the Scout Shop to buy advancement on the Saturdays that I'm home.  I've put a lot of effort into this pack and I've been reluctant to watch it fail.  However, I'm growing tired of having to adult for Millennials.    

21 minutes ago, Tron said:

The main point of these changes which most people seem to have missed is that each rank is vertically aligned now. This helps a pack in 2 ways. First of all a pack suffering from lack of leadership can more easily combine grade levels into a "mixed" den and keep the whole program running. Secondly the pack leadership can align when they do the related adventures month-to-month so that the monthly pack meeting/outing aligns with what the cubs were learning all month. This brings the cub program into alignment with how a troop should function (practice in meetings, execute in outings). 

These changes are going to be fabulous; they are going to lead to better recruitment and retention for both cubs and scouts bsa.

Except that the program is already essentially that way.  We had a campout and knocked out requirements for every den, whether it involved knot tying, out door code, leave no trace, hiking, etc.  The program already had that feature.  I'm not sure what's fabulous about making AOLs now spend a lot more time finishing up.  There's no way a den can complete 8 adventures in 6 months with a quality program.  

I like the footprint for BA tents with the fast fly capability.  Lets me set up the fly in a rain storm and build the tent underneath it.  That way I get less water intrusion through the mesh walls.  They also are lighter than plastic and fold better.  

I'm liking the idea of the Eureka tents.  I've found the tents for $138 and vestibules for $50.  I typically lean toward Big Agnes, but I also remember that young Scouts aren't the most careful of kids.  My only concern is that Eureka doesn't seem to make a footprint for those tents.  Their 2 person foot print is shorter and narrower than the floor dimensions of the Timberline 2.  Guess the kids will have to do what their dad did and use a plastic sheet and tarp.  

As we prepare our Webelos to move on down the line, I'm looking at tents.  I still have my trusty L.L. Bean Geodesic tent from the late 80s.  I believe it is technically a 3-person tent, but being in England, we kept our packs/bags inside with us, so it was a 2-person.  What are Scouts using these days?  I saw what looked more like single tents at the campsite we visited a couple week ago.  I was thinking of getting him a 3-person.  

1 hour ago, CubHerder said:

For Cub Scout standards, yes. Unless the organization, i.e., the BSA, provides provides resources to execute the plan, such as people or money, they are quite literally just providing words on a page.   

BSA provides you a ton of literature on how to execute the plan.  Volunteers are the people and fundraisers provide the money, not that you need much.  I guess you ignore that whole A Scout is Trustworthy thing, right?  Why bother even doing anything?  Just click on the little boxes and go buy awards to hand out.

6 hours ago, DannyG said:

I am interested to see how the new AOL requirements shakes out. Is it more of a full-year commitment? One gripe with the current AOL program is it is not a full-year program. It is a 6-month requirement, then get them ASAP into a troop. That's good for the Cubs who spent years learning about scouting. But is it enough for the kids who joined new in 5th-grade? They paid for a full-year program only to get rushed out the door to join a new unit.

 

The full-year program fee transfers to Scouts BSA.  They don't have to pay anything else to move up.  If you are referring to the Pack dues, then that's a failure of Pack leadership to determine where the AOLs won't participate and reduce dues accordingly.  Our last AOLs moved up after B&G and PWD, so they paid the same as everyone else.  The next group may transition before those events, so their dues will be reduced accordingly.  

12 hours ago, CubHerder said:

Yes, that is what the handbook says. But those are just words on a page, the rubber meets the road when Den Leaders and parents to donate the time to deliver the program. We are grateful to our leaders who step up even if they can't execute the program to ideal standards, and to our parents even if they can't supervise a month's worth of Cub Scout homework. 

 

Wait, seriously?  You regard standards as "just words on a page"?  What are you teaching the kids with that attitude?  Why bother?  Would you accept any professional regarding the laws or codes as "just words on a page"?  Attitudes start as children.  They see adults just handing out awards without regard for meeting standards and they will expect that to be the case all the time.  

17 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

No, you didn’t. In ‘86 it was the Scout badge. In ‘95 it became the Scout Rank. One was a joining badge and the other involves a lot more and is a rank. So, yes the badge was eliminated and replaced with a rank. In this case a joining badge of bobcat becomes an adventure. Times change. 

I think you're quibbling.  Changes have been made to every badge/rank requirement over the past 40 years.  I wouldn't say that my Second Class that required skill awards is different than the Second Class of today without them.  Adding essentially a totin chip, a little more in-depth knowledge of Scouts BSA, and tie two more knots.  Interestingly, Scouts no longer have to agree to live by the Oath, Law, motto, slogan, and outdoor code.  I can't say that that is a positive change.

49 minutes ago, NDW5332 said:

I'm a terrible person at gussing the age of a kid.  I flipped through my old highschool yearbook and saw my old SPL. My God, he looked 45 years old in 1991, and he had just turned 17.  A couple o years ago, Our troop now had an SPL  at 13 and our outgoing SPL just turned 18, so 5 years is a lot of time to mature and grow into Did you speak with the CO Troop's SM?to address your concerns?  Regarding the lack of motivation on tasks, what kind of tasks.   Was is a true lack of motivation, or was it a skill set gap and lack of training.   Were the Scouts "Voluntold" they'd have to help, or was it cheerful service? I find that volunteers are generally more motivated than kids that are told they have to give up their weekend.  Did you ask the Scouts what was going on?  How they felt about how the day camp was going, what did they think the adults could have been doing better?

I don't know the SMs for all the troops I had.  Each Scout volunteered and had to go through an interview process for Day Camp, so there was a barrier to entry.  Not a significant one, but enough to dissuade some.  Tasks were things like help the older Scouts keep water jugs full and help out the volunteers at stations.  Not exactly hard things.  Instead, I'd find them wandering off to hang out in a back room.  

Does anyone have an idea of how this will work for kids already in the pipeline?  It would be pretty crappy for a kid to be looking forward to earning AOL in August 2024 because he only has 2 adventures to do over the summer while waiting for the 6 months since turning 10 to arrive.    

8 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

We didn’t / we don’t. It became the Scout rank in 2015. Things change.

It's been around a lot longer than since 2015.  I earned it in '86 and it was essentially the Boy Scout version of the Bobcat.  

7 hours ago, CubHerder said:

I really like this new organization. It looks like someone has actually thought about and designed a six-year program, as opposed to the current structure that appears to be made up of one band-aid solution on top of another. I'm also glad to see Arrow of Light as simply one of six rank badges. The idea that Arrow of Light was some great culmination of Cub Scouting never made any sense to me. Any kid who joins a Pack in 5th grade and participates for six months can get Arrow of Light. Whoop-De-Do. 

I also agree about eliminating the random awards. In the past six years I think our Pack awarded two or three of them. They add nothing to the vast majority of Cubs' experiences.

Requiring eight adventures for each rank I think is a good move. Frankly, many of our Den Leaders hold one meeting per adventure regardless of difficulty or whatever. Eight Adventures means at least eight Den Meetings, which at least gets them together once per month for the duration of the school year more or less.

The Protect Yourself Rules seems to have disappeared as an adventure. This also makes sense. It is not the same thing as the other adventures, it's more like administrative work for the family. I assume it is still required but it belongs in some other bucket. Maybe families will have to take it online and get credit like YPT.

I am very hopeful that the content of the new adventures will reflect modern times and will have self consistency, i.e., that the adventures in a given area progress in a clear way (e.g., increasing difficultly) from Lion to Arrow of Light. We will have to wait to see however.

Being able to show parents a very consistent plan like this on a single sheet of paper could really help families understand that there is a well-thought-out progression of growth for their child, and thus may help with retention. 

A Scout can still join in 5th grade and earn the AOL in 6 months.  That doesn't change.  Instead, your DL will now have 6 months to complete 8 adventures.  In some cases, even less time.  We have a Scout who turned 10 at the beginning of 4th grade.  He could earn the AOL and cross over in February 2024.  The other two would need to wait until December 2024 since they don't turn 10 until July.  That gives the DL realistically 3 months to accomplish all 8 adventures.  You think that there won't be pressure to get those done fast, quality be damned?  Troops want Scouts.  Parents want to get to a program where they don't have to be involved.  

As far as progression, I think the program as shown above looks very consistent, but nowhere near as broad as the present program.  Four out of the 6 required look like they are school-type things.  The kids get bored being preached to all the time.  That was the biggest complaint we got - they sat in school all day and then were expected to sit in school at Scouts.  Not fun.  

47 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

With due respect, are that many people going to be upset with the removal of the Bobcat Badge as a rank? I've always thought of it as a bit of an "odd duck" among Cub Scout awards. The diamond of "Lion, Tiger, Wolf, and Bear" is going to look sharp and show an intuitive progression through the program.

Yes.  The Bobcat has been the first rank earn for most of the life of the program.  It became a cloth badge in 1972.  It's like saying, "We don't need the Scout badge anymore."  What does the kid earn for knowing the basics of Cub Scouts?  It's a big deal for a Cubbie to earn a badge after the first couple of meetings so that they have something on their shirt.  It showed that they belonged to the Pack and actually achieved something significant.  In the old days, it was pinned on upside down until the Scout did a good turn.  Now they will be a blank shirt for a year.  For the boys whose parents can only afford a shirt, the belt loops are useless.  Same for the girls who wear their shirts untucked or with the leggings.  Frankly, most 5 y/o's don't memorize the Scout Oath, Scout Law, CS motto, etc very well.  Having them try to pronounce, much less memorize these things is going to be very difficult.  

1 minute ago, mrjohns2 said:

It isn't eliminated. It is making it age appropriate. 

Do you see a Bobcat rank on that chart?  The Bobcat rank is eliminated.  It becomes nothing more than an Adventure.