Armymutt

I didn't see if anyone posted a link to the survey.  Here it is: https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fscouting.co1.qualtrics.com%2Fjfe%2Fform%2FSV_bwRYOkYtVhKuhD0%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR023Zyg17gdApjE2j3_U5DHb6Nf2L3DqzO-psskHKUmSN1h2OCgAMzJrlU&h=AT2HR5V67UvWPBRa97b7P7qsVHaI3OL9YOBrRFduGIA-dEiJNkJ3xoejPuCV5zgEjfnC4fRyUBDgLg2881iKNEXYpOqLSV7h35nTohFqu2m9S-5iLC26KIm5S--LCd3AmQ&__tn__=-UK-R&c[0]=AT1ksbr1YQp-wVczI4xzZS7m9o0902qtI2rMWKWHUEZ-OTurDvj6z7YyC9YItVBo8jcMHjiNtrez_Ov2IqMDJ1TPEI1QLTmtmROv6oyMl7qrx4KV1lhngmn4qZliOK1lIJKTNBfK_lC9SGyRkJ3Vi0riDBXq0uZCBwrjtj-kT_cqc4HlfhWoHngTJC9xg-Eq9yffDIKBfbq7TokHu8b-V2kcvsQ6

My troop as a kid had a standard breakfast and lunch in camp. Cast iron skillet on the stove with lard.  First in were eggs.  Crack them on the pan and drop straight into the hot oil.  After they were done, they got pulled out and put on papertowel-topped paper plates.  Next up was bacon.  This was friend and put on papertowel/plates.  Last was sliced potatoes.  These were prepped by being washed and slice at about 1/8-1/4".  Fried up, removed to drain, salted.  That was breakfast.  Pans were allowed to cool and then stuck next to a tree for the rest of the day.  Next morning, pick out any debris that fell into them and back on the stove.  

Lunch was a loaf of white bread, a package of bologna, and Open Pit BBQ sauce.  This was normally away from camp - water front, hike, etc.  Occasionally, we'd build a small fire - like 8" diameter - and roast hot dogs.  

Dinner varied.  Foil meals were popular and easy. Dinner is normally a good time to get fancy.  I like to make pizza with my Cubs, but that requires some additional cast iron.  A good dutch oven can be used to make biscuits, pie, cobbler, etc.  Same with soups.  Use a couple to make chili and corn bread.  There are a number of websites with dinner ideas, not to mention older editions of the Boy Scout Handbook.  I haven't bought one since the early 90s, so I don't know about the modern one.  The last one to have drawings instead of photos was a good source of ideas for camp cooking.

One other possibility to look at is being a Commissioner for the troop and a couple other units.  You are not part of the troop, but you can still go camping with them.  You also get to see how various units do things.  You can provide this information across the units to help spread what makes troops strong.  The added bonus is that you'll be in a fee-paying registered position, which means you can go camping with a Scouts BSA troop.  The new YP standards require all adults who go camping be in a fee-paying registered position.  There are only so many adult positions in a troop.  The district is always looking for commissioners.  

I was a Cubmaster for 2 years and now serve as the Pack Committee Chair for the same unit due to the Army moving me.  While I'm away from my family, I'm serving a different council as a Commissioner.  It's great!  I have two troops, two packs, and a crew.  I get to see how each one struggles and triumphs in their given environments and with the types of members. - one 90% active duty military with a military organization as a CO, the other mostly Hispanic with a church as a CO.  If I have time, I can go camping with any of them and see how they do things in the field.  Don't limit yourself to just the troop your kid is in.

On 3/6/2023 at 12:43 PM, IndyDad said:

Did this family per their Scout registration/dues for the 2022 calendar year? If so, then they were paid up till Dec31, 2022 and were delinquent by 2 months at the time of Blue & Gold. We generally treat B&G as an end of year celebration, so if they were part of the Pack until Oct, they still had some activity they participated in that the B&G dinner would cover, date-wise.

In that situation, I would have let them come in and attend. I'd also approach them separately and find out what their intentions were for the rest of the year and also remind them of the annual dues that are required (if nothing else, they need to pay the required national + council dues to be on the roster and covered by council insurance). If they didn't plan to attending any further, then you could drop the case.

Did this family per their Scout registration/dues for the 2022 calendar year? If so, then they were paid up till Dec31, 2022 and were delinquent by 2 months at the time of Blue & Gold. We generally treat B&G as an end of year celebration, so if they were part of the Pack until Oct, they still had some activity they participated in that the B&G dinner would cover, date-wise.

In that situation, I would have let them come in and attend. I'd also approach them separately and find out what their intentions were for the rest of the year and also remind them of the annual dues that are required (if nothing else, they need to pay the required national + council dues to be on the roster and covered by council insurance). If they didn't plan to attending any further, then you could drop the case.

They paid council registration for 2022, but did not pay dues for 22-23.  The dues for 21-22 covered B&G 22, not B&G 23.  As of 1 JAN 23, they were not a part of the Boy Scouts of America.  Since the former Scout is a 5th grader and was 11, they had no intention of rejoining the pack.  

A few more details.  The Pack has paid for the adult in this situation to be a registered Assistant Den Leader.  The last time he showed up was at a district campout where he came late and didn't help out with the Pack at all.  He didn't bring the stove that the AOLs needed to do their cooking requirement, so the DL had to scramble.  The former Scout in question told one of our committee members that she really didn't have time for Cub Scouts because she was too busy with Girl Scouts.  Even at the Christmas parade, she showed up in a GSUSA uniform instead of a Cub Scout uniform.  I don't think she cared one way or another.  The CO had the event down for not open to the public, so I kept to those wishes.  The COR comments came after the interaction.  There's a serious lack of communication, despite my best efforts to seek input into both events.  This is the frustrating part of all of it.  

The problem is, that one isn't a Scout if one isn't registered, correct?  We don't charge admission to the B&G.  The costs are in the dues that everyone is supposed to pay.  This family didn't pay dues at all this academic year, even when they were registered.  I don't think they are going to pay the $90 in dues and $156 in registration fees at the B&G.  We have been trying to get in contact with them for four months with no response.  They obviously had no intention of joining the Pack when they showed up on the last day for the AOL den to meet.  The event was not open to the general public, and I'd argue that someone not registered in the BSA qualifies as the general public.  At this point, they are the problem of whatever troop they go to.  Let them deal with the dishonesty.  Between the free ride they were getting before I turned the Pack around and got it out of bankruptcy and the claim of earning the AOL despite not attending a den meeting since Oct, I've had it with them.  They have been a massive drain on morale for much of the Pack, to the point that parents have complained to me about it.

Well, that was fun.  Yesterday was out B&G Banquet.  We had a family show up that, until last Tuesday, hadn't made contact with the pack since October.  They did not recharter this year, never paid dues this academic year, nothing.  I reminded them that they were not members of the Pack and that the banquet was only for Pack members and, apparently, the troop leadership invited by our COR for our AOLs.  We hadn't planned on them either, but they were integral to the crossover that was supposed to take place after the B&G, rather than as the addendum that it turned out to be.  The AOL den leader denies inviting them, as does all the other leadership.  She did however ask if they would be attending, which sounds a lot like an invitation to me, but whatever.  At no point did she remind them that they were not members of BSA, despite them wearing uniforms at the meeting.  I ended up having to be the bad guy because I enforced the policy of pay to play by reminding them that they weren't members of the Pack and had paid no dues toward the execution of the B&G.  Bringing a dish really doesn't matter to me because all of the other families there brought a dish and paid $4/Scout to attend.  Now I'm being told that "a Scout is Friendly" and that we shouldn't have turned them away by the COR.  The family in question also happens to be THE range guy for the District.  I'm willing to bet my paycheck that if some other former member of the Pack showed up and was reminded that the event was not open to the public, no one would have batted an eye.

5 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

Lowe's corporate HQ is literally 10 minutes outside our council borders. I wonder if the stores were just giving us a line.

I'm betting it's up to the local GM.  The ones where we sold a couple of years ago is an Eagle Scout.  He's since moved on, and we got rejected, or at least, ignored.

1 minute ago, nolesrule said:

You can sell at Lowes? We reached out to do a fundraiser at 2 of them nearby and they told us they don't allow them anymore as a corporate policy.

Doesn't seem to be a consistent thing.  The Lowe's closest to our Pack pretty much ghosted us when we asked for permission.  Meanwhile, the 4 other Lowe's in the council, including one in our district, were cool with it and were listed on the TE shift manager.  We had to drive 30 minutes to get there, but it was like a tobacco auction until the good popcorn ran out.  

On 2/19/2023 at 7:02 PM, Delphinus said:

And meanwhile, parents are urged to get out there and sell, sell, sell (I hear this in Randolph and Mortimer Duke's voices) more popcorn. The Pack we used to be in heavily urged us to sell popcorn rather than just pay our dues. The "Popcorn Colonel" let slip last year that ~40% of the sale proceeds go to the Pack and ~30% go to the council. So selling $750 to cover all of the $225 dues actually meant that Pack got $300 from all that free labor. Then, we always had the hard sell of "Friends of Scouting" at the Blue & Gold each year to look forward to. Apparently, Packs that schedule that "presentation" get a streamer to put on their flag. 

We tell our Cubs to sell, sell, sell because I'd rather spread the cost of Scouting across the community than pull it from the parents' bank account.  Realistically, even with the 30% commission going to the Scout, it only takes about 4 to 6 hours at Lowes to make the Scout $1000 in commission.  That covers their dues, national and council fees, camping, uniforms, and a bit left over for some high quality camping gear.  My kids both have Big Agnes sleeping bags and air mattresses with $0 coming from our family's accounts.  

Here's Middle Tennessee Council: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/620477729

Quite a jump between the SE and the deputy.

For comparison, Occoneechee Council in NC:

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/560529984

I think Occoneechee has a far superior camp and overall facilities.

42 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

... NESA upped the cost from $35 to $100.  No thanks...

I like the idea of the board.  I actually got excited about the Change the board! part.  The quoted portion is where I about choked.  At $35, it was worth giving as a give for 5 years.  I can't believe the silver border square knot is now $500!  It can't cost that much to operate NESA.  Maybe they should shrink down the scholarships.  You already have to be a NESA member to apply.  If you can afford to spend $100 on a 50-year membership, you probably aren't hurting for money.

I talked to the dad today.  We discussed both sides of the issue and I think he's in agreement that it's better to start with the troop on March 1st rather than holding his son back.  It would be different if we had a Webelos Den behind him, but we don't.  Better that he start progressing toward Eagle with kids his own age than hang out with 9 year olds.  

49 minutes ago, yknot said:

You are joking but in reality parents will list it as a credential on applications to private schools. There aren't a lot of comparable accomplishments in that age group for parents who are looking to get into competitive middle schools. 

That leads me to believe that the admissions committees don't have a clue about the AOL.  Let's be real, it's nowhere near the level of an accomplishment of a First Class Scout, let alone Eagle.

5 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Agree.  It's nice to have the patch on the scout shirt, but it just doesn't matter.  

That's my thought too.  I have a hard time buying into the level of commitment for getting the patch when no action was taken for over a year and a half.  There are lots of packs around.  The dad is an Eagle Scout.  Grandpa was a CM and SM.  I get the legacy thing, but given that the AOL really isn't much more than spending 6 months in Cub Scouts and getting 5 pins, I can't see it being worth holding a kid back from being in a troop and getting ready for summer camp.

No, he hasn't been registered since he was a Bear.  

17 hours ago, yknot said:

Where does end of school year have a set date? We used to get out as late as June 28. Some private schools got out later or earlier. Our Council used to have a Webelos Woods camp out for cross overs in July after everyone was out. For kids who are taking make up courses, the end of the school year is over the summer. Unless that's some rule I've missed, I think it's probably any date before Labor Day. 

The school calendar seems to be a pretty good source for when the school year ends.  

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

"came to us in December 2022".  So then, the boy effectively finishes six month requirements sometime in May.    Arrived with you Dec 15th means six months on May 15th.  

IMHO, I would not be overly legalistic with this AOL requirement as the scout won't gain anything with those last few weeks after the rest of the AOL den moves on.  Sometimes I do apply the common sense rule "what does it serve?"  In this case, there will not be any gain.  In fact, the scout could then be out-of-sync with the rest of the scouts that cross over. ... Sometimes you have to be flexible to avoid having the parent damage the scout's journey.

By "came to us in December" I mean the dad sent us an email.  They didn't show up until last weekend.  They just turned in the application.  By June, we are in our summer mode, which means no real meetings because everyone is on vacation for the summer.  As long as the parents understand that there will not be a crossover ceremony, it's probably ok.  I just can't see why you wouldn't want to hang out with Scouts your own age, rather than with a group where the oldest is in 3rd grade.  

I have a parent who really wants his son to earn the AOL.  Their pack folded a couple of years ago and they finally came to us in December 2022.  The boy turns 11 in April.  In order to meet the 6 month requirement, he'd have to be registered by now, right?  I recommended that he just wait a couple of months and join the troop, but the dad isn't accepting of that idea.  As of Feb 25, we will no longer have an AOL Den Leader, so it will be 100% on the dad to make sure everything gets done.  I'm not sure how we get the 6 months in between now and the end of the school year on June 9.  

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Ceremonies are important.  I think there are many ways to do meaningful ceremonies.  If nothing else, Lord Baden Powell would be the perfect fulcrum for ceremonies.  Tell his story.  Tell the vision.  Tell the evolution of scouting.  Tell the meaning.  Tell what scouts have done for others for 100+ years.  OA is about continuing the service and honor fundamental to scouting.  

I've participated in many ceremonies in and out of scouting.  Ceremonies mark achievements and transitions. 

I fully 100% believe OA can have extremely meaningful ceremonies without the uncomfortable use of American Indian culture.

You don't think that the same types of people complaining about the OA now won't be slightly offended at an organization that uses a major participant in sustaining and enhancing the colonization and oppression of Africans as a fulcrum?  The UK removed a statue of him from the public space.  BSA doesn't broadcast B-P's involvement in Scouting on its brochures.  He's not at the forefront of anything.  There has to be a reason for that.  I'm betting that the folks in Irving would rather keep his name out of anything that isn't involved with die hard Scouters - like in Wood Badge.  

22 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No need to remove ceremonial inductions, signs, symbols, or watchwords...

All those may be observed and preserved

The problem I see is that if you remove all the stuff that creates the proper setting and mood, you basically have something that isn't much different than the Calvin and Hobbes club.  Realistically, the OA is basically network Scouting with a focus on service.  It is the ceremonies that make it special.  Think about Disney World.  If you took out all of the scenery in the Peter Pan ride, would people spent 120 minutes in line to ride it?  It's the suspension of disbelief that brings impact to the ideals of the OA as described in the ceremonies.  They are basically parables.  

Jay Dunbar, who wrote the current Brotherhood ceremony, seems to be supportive of the ceremonies.  Since he's from NC, I'm betting he's Cherokee.  He's definitely American Indian.  His proximity to the OA holds more weight on POV than others who have zero OA experience.  

No one has been able to answer why the opinions of Indians who are against the OA are more valuable than those who are in favor of it.  I'm pretty sure the guy who wrote the latest incarnations of the ceremonial texts is an Indian.  Given his level of involvement in the OA as a youth and adult, I don't think he is against it.

4 minutes ago, yknot said:

Swiss culture. William Tell. 

So, Switzerland is in Europe, which is a little to the east of North America.

16 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

The Native American iconography (seems to be the new way National is referring to it, which probably does mean it isn't just regalia but also the language/names such as those used in ceremony scripts, and probably position titles- if "clan" wasn't acceptable anymore, I'd imagine "chief" isn't too far off from getting ditched) is "still under discussion on how best to implement". My guess is that they wanted to announce now, but cost assessment needs to be done- as I understand it, the shift away from the "iconography" is going to impact the whole BSA, not just the OA, so camp names/campsite names are being discussed as part of the deal. Not that I love that idea, but if you're going to tell the OA they can't do something, it is hypocritical if you don't change your whole operation.

This is the big issue.  If we are going to get rid of regalia, then we also need to ditch all AIA references - the names of lodges and chapters, the term "lodge", all the ceremonial texts, the names of many camps, and even the word "arrow".  I can't think of another culture in North America that is associated with the use of arrows.    

@InquisitiveScouter I wrote the budget based on discussions we had had previously in the Pack.  There was no published budget prior to my arrival - at least nothing in the archives.  Our budget is really more of a factoring of what we need to spend to buy advancement items, cover adult registrations, cover the unit recharter fee, PWD cars, and a bit for decorations.  That gets divided between the current Scouts and everyone pays.  No one else was writing it, so I did all the calculations necessary and wrote it.  Everyone had ample opportunity to review it and provide feedback.  

As far as amending it, that seems out of the question.  It would then require going back to all the parents and saying, "I know we said you'd only have to pay this much for your Scout to participate, but now you have to pay this much more."  Not a pack builder.  We could add it in next year, but it will still increase dues for no value added to the bulk of the Scouts.  The AOL crossover isn't a surprise.  The parents have had plenty of time to plan and resource this event.  My son hits Webelos in May and I'm already planning the plaques and ceremony, as well as a gift for the DL.  I'll then shop this to the parents and we'll work it into the fundraising target for each Scout.  

The funny thing is that they wanted to execute this event in Dec, yet they aren't even prepared in January.  Frustrating.   

7 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Plaques aren't essential. They are a "want" versus a "need."

If they aren't in the existing budget, then this is a Committee issue, if there is a push to fund this from the AOL parents. 

IF the Committee votes to fund this, then they have to solve the problem of how to fund it or come up with plaques.  There's a million ways to skin that cat.

But, if you are the CM (??) then this really isn't your issue.  If you are CM, then you don't have a vote 😜

Past history is just that... past history.  That they were funded in the past is irrelevant to the issue.

We did plaques similar to @Eagle94-A1.  One parent made the plaques.  (Is there a wood hobby shop on the base??)  

BTW, my 17 y.o. Eagle Scout does not hold his AOL plaque as one of his "treasured possessions."  He has many many more treasured items from his years as a Scout.

 

 

 

I'm the CC now, so it's squarely in my realm.  I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks that it is up to the AOL parents to come up with any gifts they want to give their Scout.  I've been asking for the cross over plan since September and this was the first time anyone mentioned something resembling a plan regarding this event.  We're supposed to execute it in a month and a half!  I think we're establishing a new precedent - the AOL DL and parents are responsible for planning the event.  If it is garbage, it's on them.  I spent the past 4 hours of my drive back to TN getting a rough outline in my mind of my son's AOL crossover in 2 years.  Probably going to have to tamp it down a bit.  Electrically fired smudge pots lighting up as someone reads off the points of the Scout Law might be a bit overboard.