Armymutt

13 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

During COVID, we did our own summer camp for 5 days. Forgot how much it was, but it was under $100/person.  Only out of pocket expense for the Scouts was the stop at the Hardees for shakes during the bike ride. We came up with different activities for the Scouts to do: cycling, canoeing, wilderness survival, emergency first aid drill, and the schedule was flexible, except for Thursday Night Dinner. We had troop committee visit to do BORs. The Scouts had a blast, and many said it was the best summer camp ever. But they didn't want to do it again because, "we didn't earn any merit badges." My kids were included in that.

And yes, BSA shot itself in the foot on this matter. They are the ones that pushed advancement and getting Eagle.

That sounds a bit like every summer camp I went to as a Scout.  I earned four merit badges during summer camps - Pioneering, Motorboating, Waterskiing, and Backpacking.  The last was Philmont.  We just had fun at our camps.  The troop in IL had a routine that we sometimes modified - we did a float trip on the Current River, swam in really cold springs, went water skiing, swimming, and motorboating on Clearwater Lake most days, and had some side trips to a state park or two.  Those were filled with hiking, fishing, and cliff jumping.  In England, the first troop didn't do a week trip.  The second one did Philmont and Kandersteg.  My sash only has 22 merit badges, but none for all the memories.  

We never had a BOR, other than for Eagle.  Maybe we had a rolling BOR?  In my second troop, I wasn't aware that we had a committee until 3 years ago, and I left that troop in the summer of '90.  The next two troops didn't have them either.  We just did our thing.  Maybe it was a military culture and the constant challenge of learning and leading were just ingrained.  

On 12/1/2025 at 1:19 PM, HashTagScouts said:

I'd encourage your son to send an email tonight to the SM asking if he could take a few minutes of the his time to have the SMC tonight, and even an offer to meet prior to the meeting if the SM is available. Might get him farther with the SM, and removes the opportunity for the SM to use an excuse of he is feeling cornered that it is "last minute" (in his mind). 

As expected, he has to wait until January.  He was able to complete the Second Class BOR and First Class SM conference on Tuesday.  Crappy situation.

17 minutes ago, Tron said:

So with your free time, and your buddies free time, it sounds like the perfect seed to start a takeover of the troop. 

Trying to light a spark, not take over.  The problem is, the CC and the SM are married and the former SPL, now ASPL, is their son.  There's a lot of undue command influence, as we would call it in the Army.  I asked the SPL why we were having this drug talk again and was told "my mom said we had to have one".  This summer, the SM said he was done at the end of the year.  I volunteered for the job and he said he was staying on for another year.  I watched this troop for a couple of years before we joined.  They were very active - camping at least monthly.  Things changed when the original SM left.  Now we aren't even going camping in December as a troop - just a game day.  

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Why cant they do the SMC prior to the BOR? In many units I have been in, that has been the case.

 

I don't know.  I told him to immediately hit up the SM for an SMC on Tuesday and then we'll try to knock out both BORs.

46 minutes ago, Tron said:

This is the sort of stuff that causes scouts to quit as soon as they find something more satisfying and less stressful to spend their time on. With leadership maneuvering to set this scout up for failure this hard it is without a doubt a guarantee that this scout drops before this time next year. 

Well, I know this one won't drop - he's mine.  I retired from the Army this month, so now dad has plenty of time to support him in Scouting.  His best friend (who became his First Class requirement 10) also has a retired guardian, so they are hitting as many Scouting events, with or without the troop, as we can.  

We got notification that there will be Boards of Review this Tuesday.  It's starting to feel like there's an intent to hold him back.  Normally the BOR night is the second Tuesday.  The plan was for him to have his SM conference this Tues so he's ready to go next Tues.  All of a sudden, the BOR gets moved up a week, so he can only do Second Class, even though all he needs for First Class is the SM conference.  

1 hour ago, yknot said:

It really doesn't have bearing on anything if units meet a few more weeks or few less weeks in the course of a year and isn't an indicator of unit health. This is a mindset that has been pushed by National moreso for marketing, membership, and financial reasons than for any real reason. 

It's a massive loss of momentum.  In two weeks, I can completely switch my focus to something else because the signal I'm receiving is that Scouting isn't important enough to meet every week.  It's like skipping a workout for two weeks.  Very hard to get going again.  I don't see how national is getting any extra money from regular troop meetings.  

5 hours ago, Tron said:

This is the group that I think would benefit the most from patrol based scouting; 8 scouts that want to camp 4 times a month year round with 2 or adults that can't say no would be ideal. 

I would be supportive of this.  Maybe not 4x a month, but definitely a Scouting event every other weekend.  I got scolded by the COR because of adult burnout.  If a fully retired "Opa" and I want to volunteer to take kids camping, I don't think it should be a problem.  I'm pretty good at saying "No".  When it's honey bee season, there will be a lot less side quests from me.  She also thinks that the Scouts will want participation credit for those campouts as leadership positions rather than the official troop campouts.  So much legalese is killing Scouts.  Personally, I'd say that if a youth in a POR doesn't want to be in a POR, don't put them in one.  Let them stay in whatever rank they are in until they decide that this is their thing.  

I was in four different troops as a kid.  The first was worthless, so I quit Scouts.  The second was in its 56th year, the SM having been a member for 55 years.  It was small at that point - my patrol had 3 and the other 4.  The meetings were advancement focused, but we never noticed.  We worked on skill awards, had competitons, etc.  My next one was a Mormon troop in England.  I think there were 8 or 9 of us.  All of us arrived as First or Second Class, so there was a little advancement, but mostly is was Scout skills (which is advancement) and some advanced woodcraft.  The SM was an F-111 pilot.  My last troop was bigger - about 15.  Two patrols, mixed ages.  We trained as patrols and the adults tested, if I recall correctly.  I was a Life Scout by then, so it was just MBs for me.  

We also don't have patrol meetings.  We've tried doing it, but I feel like we have too many Scouts who are there out of force.  They play around, which frustrates the Scouts who want to be there, and nothing gets done.  

We are chartered to a civilian organization.  This will be interesting for our Cub Scout pack though.  I will say that there is a grain of truth in the lack of standards being upheld.  As far as our troop, we have very few Scouts who are above First Class, so doing advancement at meetings is vital.  However, our PLC is failing them by not actually doing advancement.  

Here's where I see trouble with this model - from the files posted: 

We should ensure no Scouts are excluded from events due to lack of appropriate adult volunteer leadership. If, despite best efforts, an event or outing lacks appropriate adult volunteer leadership, it should be canceled rather than excluding any youth.

This has the potential to be severely damaging.  No females volunteer to go on an outing, it gets cancelled.  The boys blame girls for being in the program and causing them to miss out.

Our troop isn't meeting tonight due to Thanksgiving.  Seems odd, since it's Tuesday and Thanksgiving is two days away.  We also didn't meet on Veterans Day, for some reason.  I also found out that we aren't meeting for two weeks in December.  This seems rather Cub Scoutish.  Is this normal now?  My troops growing up met unless it was Christmas or Independence Day.  If kids went out of town, fine, they missed the meeting.  No big deal.  Everyone else had the opportunity to get together and have fun.  

6 hours ago, Tron said:

I like this PL/APL stance. Too many troops only have the PL involved in the PLC.

Getting the kids, well parents, to attend the PLC is the tough one.  I'm trying to shape things more and more.  It's gotta be a force more like erosion than a hurricane.  Very difficult for a guy who thrives on rapidly changing environments.

We never had a BOR, other than for Eagle, in any of the three troops I was a member.  One was in IL, the others in England.  I don't even recall a SM conference.  We just completed the ranks and received the badge and card.  These seem like artificial barriers that are unnecessary.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One reason why Scouting America doesn't cut off Scouting at 13 or 14, and makes Venturing the next stage, (emphasis) if you look at older, pre 1989 BSA literature. The middle schoolers look up to, and learn from the highschoolers. They will usually be the ones elected into leadership  roles. Traditional, aka Mixed Age Patrols, were the standard. Unless you were LDS which used aged based patrols. Patrols could actually do things on their own without adults, including camping.  Older members mentored and worked with younger members. Nowadays the lack of Scouter manpower, forces troops to focus on the Troop Method, and not the Patrol Method. 

IMHO, Scouting America has lost its way. Instead of focusing on adventure and fun to promote individual growth, the focus is now on MBs and getting Eagle. Instead of hiring and listening to folks with outdoor experience, Scouting America  is hiring "Educational Leadership" experts with no idea how Scouting is suppose to work, but a ton of theories on how to develop youth. The one I met had no outdoors experience whatsoever, no jobs outside of academia, and was appalled when I said they needed to spend time at a summer camp. Even then summer camp is turning into outdoor school.  And do not get me started on aged based patrols. I was one of the guinea pigs when it was beta tested, and shocked when it became the recommendation.

 

I'm doing my best to exert influence to get us to being patrol based.  Tuesday night was supposed to be planning menus for the campout and a troop-level first aid class.  Neither went as they should.  They got the menus planned, but it took longer than needed.  I was unable to identify any sort of first aid training that was taking place.  The troop had the opportunity to elect a 16 y/o SPL but instead decided to simply swap around the last SPL and ASPL.  So, another 6 months of no progress is almost assured.  It's going to take the PLs standing up at the PLC and demanding that the meetings focus on patrol-level activities.  A troop-level game, sure, but the rest of the meeting should belong to the patrols.  The problem is, our PLCs are held at a local Zaxby's where discussion is impossible.  Half the PLs aren't paying attention.  

The problem is getting these kids to actually have an imagination and want to do things.  After our last meeting, I was ready to throw in the towel.  I've been trying to coordinate extra activities for Scouts who want to Scout.  This includes things like a hike in the local state park, the orienteering day at the local council camp, participating in the council's winter merit badge camp, etc.  I was told that those distract from the planned program activities of one campout/activity a month.  Youth leaders feel that they can use those extra activities to count as their leadership time instead of attending the official activities.  Also mentioned was the pulling of adults from the official activities to man the extras.  Now, the only adults I've had for the extras are myself and another ASM who is retired and taking care of his grandson.  That's why he's in Scouting and I recruited him.  I also was told that I shouldn't be serving as the collection point of money to pay for events that require registration as a troop.  Frankly, I think I'm capable of handling finances better than the treasurer who can't give me a statement of the accounting after being asked a month ago and who is bewildered by popcorn sales.    The final straw was when the SPL announced that there would be no meeting on the 11th due to Veterans Day and a large portion of the troop cheered.  Kind of a sign that my efforts are being wasted here.  Somewhere along the way, Scouting went from an activity that kids wanted to join to something parents forced them into in order to check a block on the way to college.  

Who can initiate a MB for a Scout?  The G2A says "unit leader".  Is the the SM, CC, ASM?  What if the SM doesn't want the Scout to start the MB?  I was planning on holding an orienteering session for First Class rank on Monday because we have several Scouts who are out of school while their parents have work.  Our campout plans for this weekend have been changed due to the original campsite having problems.  Now the focus will be on First Class orienteering, cook, first aid, etc.  I figure then we'll just make Monday a little more in-depth and do Orienteering MB.  I'm an ASM and Orienteering MB counselor.  Another ASM is joining me out at the site.  Does the SM need to say that the Scouts who come can do the MB, or can one of us give the green light?

8 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Can't a BOR be scheduled outside a unit meeting?  

Apparently not.  For a troop that is so active, it really seems geared around convenience for the adults.  That might be a function of the kids who don't really want to be there.  We aren't meeting next week due to Veterans Day.  When the SPL made the announcement, the troop cheered.  I was disappointed that they don't want to do Scouting.  

4 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Yes. A majority of our BoRs are done  on the night of the committee meeting. It is rare for us to do them at a troop meeting. 

Our committee meetings are held the same night as the troop meetings.  

I reapproached it tonight without success.  Poor excuses about not having a meeting due to holidays and how important the drug presentation meeting is.  I guess we're not going back until Dec and he'll have to do two BORs.  He already did the drug class last year.  For some reason the CC insists on doing one every year and the kids can't miss a single second of it.  Since the temporary SM who insisted that he was done at the end of the year has now decided that he's staying on for another year, I don't see a need for me to attend every meeting.  I was told, if they were 17, then they would do one, but since the kids are 11 and 13, they have plenty of times.  For a troop that holds the G2SS as almost a Bible, they play fast and loose with the Guide to Advancement.

10 minutes ago, Tron said:

Why is this being driven by the committee chair? At the troop level the advancement coordinator is responsible for arranging boards of review. Additionally, though not the best option, a board of review can be staffed by parents, people from the community, basically anyone with some knowledge of the process that is not a member of the scoutmaster corps. 

Well, we are in between Advancement Coordinators.  Weird stuff going on.  The old one announced his retirement.  Another parents was being courted.  She needed some time to make a decision.  When she said she would do it, the CC then decided that it needed to be voted on, but that vote couldn't occur at the committee meeting in progress.  

We have 2 Scouts who need boards of review.  One is going for Star and the other Second Class.  Both finished their SM conference at least by last Tuesday.  Our Troop normally does BOR on the second Tuesday.  This year, that's Veterans Day, and we aren't meeting, for some reason.  The first Tuesday, the CC has a committee meeting for our girl troop because she's also the CC there.  The third Tuesday we have a drug program for the Second Class requirement.  The CC said she doesn't want to pull any Scouts or adults from that, despite the Scouts in question not needing it.  We also aren't meeting the week of Thanksgiving, another questionable decision.  So it looks like these Scouts will have their BOR delayed for an entire month.  The Second Class candidate will likely be ready for his First Class BOR.  Can they be done the same night? 

The requirement says, "On a Scouting or family outing, take note of the trash and garbage you produce. Before your next similar outing, decide how you can reduce, recycle, or repurpose what you take on that outing, and then put those plans into action. Compare your results."

What happens when your troop is very LNT?  I'm trying to coach a few Scouts, but coming up short here.  They could repackage some food items, but that introduces food safety issues.  Everyone eats out of mess kits.  The only trash being produced is usually meat packaging, maybe some bags protecting veggies, or a can or two.  Thoughts on how to proceed here?

45 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Not sure it has anything to do with the Covid interruptions.  Did they have to have any skits approved first?  The newest attitude on such things is, from my recent experience, one of overly zealous concern with something maybe hurting feelings or hinting at stuff once just part of normal life interactions.  Especially NO possible inuendo or suggestion of body functions, animal or human.  In some instances we no longer are supposed to sing the old Region Twelve song, for example, as one of the early versions, and the ones most of us recollect has nakedness suggested.  The old standby trainge elephant skit is not acceptible, nor the dumb two scouts arguing about belts, but not noting that is the topic, noting length.  The JCPenney skit is no longer generlly allowed, nor the one with fish(suckers) hanging on a line.  The really sad thing is that they are exposed to far worse daily on TV and in public where the four letter word is now so common few even notice.  And TV programs often have so many beeps in them that it is simply tiresome.  Just my thoughts, but I am of the lost generation when we still were innocents and still were neighborhood families.  

 

They do the same dumb skit they have done for the last 4 years that I have known these kids.  One introduces himself as POTUS and his body guard is Chuck Norris.  He gets kidnapped and the kidnapper is revealed to be his body guard.  The body guard's boss is revealed to be someone else.  That's literally the whole skit.  It's about as funny as it reads.  I've tried to introduce them to the old ones, which apparently will seem new to the kids today.  For example, the filming scene where they go through many iterations until reaching perfection, only to find they ran out of film.  The new socks where the last one needs i pair a month.  

We attended the Railroading MB weekend at the NC Transportation Museum this past weekend.  On Saturday night, there was an all camp fire.  I noticed that almost all of the skits were terrible.  Not funny at all.  The kids were laughing, but, as one ASM noted, "so was the audience watching 'Ass' in Idiocracy".  Did we lose the idea that skits had a punchline?  I thought it was just our guys, but almost every troop who performed had something that was about as funny as kids saying "six, seven".  At this point, I'd be happy to see a kid run on stage declaring a small leafy branch to be the infant tree.  It's not just skits, but most of the other stuff is in the Handbook, if they ever actually open it.