Armymutt

7 minutes ago, Tron said:

So we have a framework right. It's clear that adult leaders have to step in and instruct the senior scouts when there is a knowledge gap or lack of retention. This goes back to BP and his original Aids to Scoutmastership. The program has always allowed for adult leaders to step in; how we step in is critical though. My advice, which I would say is backed up by the solid century+ of the program and going back to the root (BP) is, in the absence of capable elected youth leaders, adults step in to teach those youth leaders and get them to the point where they are capable. 

In short it's a 2 part solution. Part 1) Adults are on hand and always willing to teach the PLC members what they need to do to teach, mentor, and lead the rest of the troop. Part 2) Constantly assessing if you're not being a lazy  fat slob by flopping on the phrase "Have you asked your SPL".

That's exactly where we are right now.  Most of the adults in the troop were not Scouts.  They took the youth lead concept to an extreme and now we have a patient that is sick.  I'm trying to avoid getting to the life support stage, much less CPR.  The oldest Scouts have succumbed to sports and the fumes.  Half the troop is under the age of 13 and a quarter is under the age of 12.  We are going to have to actually teach the PLC, such that it is, how to do the skills and then get them to retain the information long enough to teach it to their patrols.  

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

They aren’t teams, they are patrols. They aren’t junior scouts, they are scouts or new scouts. They aren’t lead by an ASM, but by a PL and a troop guide. It’s been awhile, 31 years, I suggest reading the PL, SPL, and SM (Unit Leader) handbooks again. Words matter. 

Semantics.  I'd argue that anyone under the rank of first class is a junior Scout.  I wouldn't call one a new Scout after being in the troop for over a year.  Splitting the 16 Scouts into two patrols within the new/junior Scout patrol is far easier to manage than one single patrol.  The ASMs aren't leading the patrol.  They are assigned to them to advise the patrol leader.  The handbooks aren't a suicide pact, last I checked.  Right now, we have 11 y/o patrol leaders who can't get themselves straight, let alone teach skills to the rest of the patrol.  The 14 y/o SPL is likewise lacking in leadership competence, having failed to ensure patrol leaders and meeting focus on Scout skills.  In a perfect world, we would have older, more knowledgeable and mature Scouts who would keep the meeting focused.  Instead, we have an SPL throwing jello on the roof of a shelter at camp and wondering why no one is following his instructions.

It's been 31 years since merit badge factory summer camp.  Not Scouting.  Our OA chapter isn't much better.  I was trying to turn that around until the Army sent me 600 miles away for three years.  I've been supporting a troop at that location while simultaneously operating a pack and helping the OA in NC on the weekends.  

35 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

This doesn't much sound like Scouts. Why not put the skills into practice in their current patrols on the normal upcoming campouts?

What doesn't sound like Scouts?  I know a lot of troops who have a junior/new Scout patrol.  We just have 18 junior Scouts, so it would be necessary to divide them into separate teams or patrols.  The learning has to start somewhere.  When you don't have older Scouts going on campouts due to work, sports, or something else, there are no experts available.  A 10 y/o patrol leader isn't exactly experienced enough to dig into the handbook and put together a training class on his own.  The ASM needs to guide him.  Even the 14 y/o SPL lacks the maturity to get things done.  The normal campouts focus more on a merit badge and less on basic skills.  We just came off a week of merit badge factory summer camp.  Other than the morning sessions dedicated to doing some of Tenderfoot through 1st Class, no basic skills were trained.    

8 hours ago, MichiganScouter said:

HOT TIP - Don't go to the Scouts BSA High Adventure Camps.

Other outfitters offer the same programs (or better) for less, AND don't exclude people based on BMI - a scientifically invalid measure of health and fitness.  

Don't discriminate against the people who might need a little time in the out of doors, include them.

 

Got any links to these programs?  We're looking for options for our older Scouts.

Well, we survived!  Lots of learning by the adults and the Scouts.  For our part, we learned that we need some new policies and procedures.  Low hanging fruit is a cellphone policy.  Phones were serving more as a distraction than a tool.  Scouts sacrificed water bottles in favor of extra batteries in their pockets.  Scouts ignored youth leaders and adult leaders while playing games or watching videos.  We also realized that there are youth protection issues with cameras and internet access.  So, a policy banning internet-capable, camera-capable devices will be in place shortly.  We also realized that there is a major lack of Scout skills among the senior Scouts who have joined the troop.   We are working out a plan to form a Junior Scout Patrol for every Scout under the rank of First Class.  This will be divided into teams with an ASM assigned to each team.  The focus will be on drilling the basic skills - knots, first aid, camping skills, cooking skills, etc.  We will have an extra camp out each month as needed to put these skills into practice in the field.  

I completed IOLS, so that's out of the way.  It was generally considered worthless for the content, but valuable for some connections made by those in attendance.  We had 12 participants, 2 women, 1 never been a Scout, 1 Life for Life, and the rest Eagles from the 90s/early-2ks.  We lamented the current culture focused on advancement over mastery.  

The Cherokee Scout Reservation in Old North State Council puts on a great summer camp.  Their Aviation MB is top notch with about 8 decent gaming-level simulators in a room.  They have a wonderful first year program called FROGS that covers many of the requirements on the road to First Class.  They don't finger drill it either.  The Scouts start each session with a full on flag ceremony and end with the same.  They work at a skill until they are able to do it repeatedly with confidence.  Consequently, they can't complete everything, but what they do get through is pretty solid.  There is a lot of walking.  I am going to add a hash mark to my 50-miler patch.  I walked 54 miles this week.  It's a mile from our camp site to the main area and another mile from there to the water front.  You'll get your hill workout.  The food was pretty good.  The camp director really cares about the program and Scouts.  He pulls no punches when dealing with transgressions.  There are some hard and fast rules that will get you sent home immediately.   There were troops who drove 3.5 hours to come to this camp.  

I know they are all four digits, at least in beascout.  Most units drop the leading zero(s) if they are there.  Maybe for us it follows the pattern described above, going by CO.

I'm curious how other councils number girl troops, and the reason.  Ours takes the same number as the associated boy troop, which is confusing.  To unofficially (not on beascout) separate the two, a G is added to the girl troop.  To me, they are separate entities and should have different numbers.  It's becoming more of an issue as the troops develop different styles of leadership.  We had a summer camp adult leader huddle tonight to go over the rules of summer camp.  Apparently, our CC (for both units) has had to deal with council investigations one every summer trip for the past couple of years.  While the CC was talking, the boy troop adult leadership stood quietly, dressed in uniforms.  The girl troop leadership had the SM in uniform and the other two adult leaders dressed in random assortment of clothing, cracking jokes.  The girl's troop is the one that seems to be the driver of the investigations. I don't want to be associated with that sort of organization.

I grew up in the Midwest too.  I just can't see needing that much stuff for a week of camp.  They need less stuff than we needed for some of my camps - shower facilities and dining hall are provided.  No one needs to bring a stove, pots, eating stuff, solar shower, etc.  

One of the things I want to do when I move back home this summer is to get the OA chapter back in shape and focused on doing OA things rather than being a teen hang out.  To that end, I'm going to propose a klondike derby for the warmer climate.  This will be a Pioneer Derby.  We had one in England when I was a kid and I really enjoyed it.  I think the OA Scouts will enjoy planning and executing it.  It will give them something to focus on during the year and teach them a lot of different skills.  If it's successful for the district, we might expand it out to the council.  I envision a patrol-level competition where entrants build a covered wagon, outfit it with necessary equipment and tackle events.  I'm still working out the how part.  Camp Durant is my obvious playground.  We could do a round robin style, or we could do it rally style.  I think the rally one would be more challenging with higher points for stations that are more difficult to get to.  This style would require a lot more stations and personnel to run. 

My son is attending his first troop summer camp.  I'm going along as an adult leader.  I was unable to attend the meeting tonight where summer camp was discussed.  My wife, with zero camping experience, sent me a text telling me that the CC wants all the campers to purchase and pack a footlocker for camp.  This is new to me.  In my day, we didn't pack a whole lot of gear for camp.  These Scouts aren't even sleeping in tents - the camp has shelters with bunk beds.  I plan to sleep in my own tent, but it will fit on my backpack.  Is this the new normal for Scouting?  Do Scouts now need more than just a sleeping bag, a few changes of clothes, and a flashlight for a week at a council camp?  

I have a similar situation, but am in an even worse position to help.  It's very frustrating.  The Scout turns 18 in mid-June.  I talked to him for about 20 minutes at a meeting in early March.  He still has to do Personal Management and Personal Fitness.  He had time, but seemed disheartened.  I told him that it will be a difficult journey, but well worth the sense of accomplishment in the end.  He kept saying that there are other things to put on a college application.  I tried to discourage that point of view, but for some reason, these kids are fixated on that.  The other adults have been trying to help as best they can.  I didn't get much of an update this past weekend on our camp out.  It's rough caring for these kids.  I try not to fall back on my veterinarian survival mantra of "you can't care more than the client" because they are kids.

19 hours ago, Tron said:

At the unit level this is hard to address. At the district or council level (so say, chapter or lodge) it is easier to push these people out. I am not 100% familiar with OA rules; however, most volunteer roles outside of unit roles are 1 year terms that are renewed by district or council, anything really important such as chairs etc ... typically have a 2-3 year max type restriction somewhere in the books. For example a district or council chair is not supposed to hold the position for more than 2 years consecutively to keep people from becoming the king of the castle so to speak. I bet the OA has rules like this somewhere. I know that my local lodge has some sort of rule about not being able to be an adviser unless the person is the parent of a dues paying youth member; I don't know if that is a local rule or an OA rule, might be worth checking out. Good luck. 

That last bit might be a way, if it is true.  His/her last child left for college 3 years ago.

6 hours ago, Wëlënakwsu said:

Rather than nudging out the person who arranges the meeting place... from your description the more important  task is to have a better Chapter Advisor.  There seems to be void that he/she is filling, but not well.

That's the whole point.  No one else can take over as the Chapter Advisor while he/she won't relinquish the reigns.  That's why he/she needs to be nudged out.  

1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

I would be asking questions of the youth leaders, such as, "how does this activity further the ideals of the Order?"  How are we providing "cheerful service" to the Lodge, District, Council and our Units?  What are we doing to promote camping?  WWW

I tried that as the ceremonies advisor, but was always stifled with the "youth lead" mantra.  That's my goal if I can get the power shifting away from the stagnant program and on a focused project that provides service to Scouting.  There are so many service opportunities at our local camp.  

I thought about posting this in the OA section, but the principles apply in all areas of the program.  Our Chapter has an adult volunteer who has been there a long time.  He/she is no longer an advisor at the chapter level, and I believe is at the Lodge level.  However, he/she has the keys to the meeting location, being a member of that location.  I have been forced to be on the peripheral of the chapter due to work.  I'm still in the chats, so I see what they are, and more importantly, aren't doing.  They are still doing EC meetings remotely, which were mostly long periods of silence and black screens when I was actively involved.  The chapter meetings seem to be little different than an average teenager outing with friends - bowling, climbing, and skating seem to be the major things.  The adult in question claims to wan to be in a different position, but won't relinquish influence.  Other adults have tried to step in, but were sidelined by this individual.  I have dealt with this same person in my pack.  He/she was the COR, but was committee chair and CM at some point in the past.  He/she was routinely interfering.  Probably well-meaning, but very wrong and causing confusion among parents.   He/she didn't attend committee meetings for months and then sent out emails directing the opposite action of what was agreed on.  Anyway, I was able to talk to a couple of Scouts this weekend from a troop that used to make up the largest percentage of the chapter.  They said it just wasn't fun or exciting.  I mentioned my idea for having the OA develop and run a district Pioneer Derby.  They seemed receptive, but raised the issue of what I'm calling inertia.  We have adults with pretty strong personalities, but they reign them in when dealing with other adults.  However, I'm seeing the inertia of one adult causing the destruction of the chapter.  While I hate to call it a coup, I think that's what it's going to take.  Anyone have a different idea than getting the youth to ask an adult advisor to find another place to be on meeting nights?

Looking for ideas on rain gear for my new Scout.  He's currently sub-5 feet, but I anticipate him hitting 6 feet before he's out of Scouts.  In the early 90s, we bought East German ponchos at the British surplus stores and used those almost exclusively.  They worked well for the English and Welsh climates we Scouted in and our parents didn't have to spend money every year or so.  I was thinking of getting him a USGI poncho.  Frogg Toggs are about worthless, so I'd like to stay away from them.  

I have all of my certificate cards.  My sash is hanging on my wall.  It's fun to look at them and think back.  The cards are almost more valuable to me because they have the names of my Scoutmasters and adds to the memories.

We held our AOL crossover this weekend.  No reason to wait unto Feb with an 11 y/o and two 10 y/o who finished 4th grade in June.  Two of them went to a troop that is going to a merit badge weekend in January.  I need a little refresher/update on the merit badge process.  We never used blue cards in my day.  I think the Scout Handbook was our tracker for the Eagle required badges and we didn't really do others that couldn't be completed in a day.  With a district the size of England (and perhaps Iceland?) and no internet, merit badge counselors were hard to come by, even if we could figure out the requirements or notice that they existed.  If a Scout is working on a merit badge that can't be completed during an event, how does the progress get tracked, and by whom?  
 

I was a little concerned initially by his lack of interest in reading the Scout Handbook a couple months ago.  After the crossover and on Sunday morning, he was in it, reading through the requirements for the Scout rank and making sure he knew the answers to everything.  Now the trick is to kindle that spark and build the fire.

1 hour ago, Tron said:

I mean just go full coed. How hard is this. The GTSS and YPT can handle the tenting and buddy system issues quite easily. 

I think it should be up to the unit.  All Scouting is local.  Forcing coed situations on children who are not ready for such a thing can drive them out of the program.  Let boys be boy and girls be girls.  They already have to change their behavior at school to avoid some social faux pas that will follow them for years.  Scouting should be an escape from that society, not an extension of it.  Of course, with the increase of classroom requirements, maybe Scouting is destined to simply be school part 2. 

40 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

They can? Each rank now has a knife safety adventure. 

Yes, and they are all electives.  There is no requirement to do it, unlike the previous version of the Bear rank.  

I've been digging in even further and the changes make little sense, at least at the Bear level.  One can complete Cub Scouts without ever touching a knife.  However, one must figure out a way to raise a flag on a flag pole.  Seems to me that it's far easier and simpler to pick up a knife at Walmart than it is to purchase and install a flag pole.  Now I have to run around and beg some organization to let me use their flag pole or figure out something else.  For me, the simplest solution will be to last some sticks together, but most parents don't have the pioneering knowledge to do that.  

I could have sworn I heard of a video or transcript of Green Bar Bill saying the Scout Law with further details for each point.  I'm coming up short on Google.  I've seen some explanation pages, but I thought there was one he did.  Any help?

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

What specifically about the program today would you not consider scouting?

Excluding registered Scouts from events bigger than the unit level because they aren't like you?  

The emphasis on camping and Arrowmen being "campers" has been curtailed.  What's funny is that our council has been asking for units to submit ideas on where to go camping.  Like we don't have an organization that used to have that as a mission.

I have the 1992 OA Handbook and a modern one with no date.  In 1992, the Purpose of the Order was "To recognize those campers - Scouts and Scouters - who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and by such recognition cause other campers to conduct themselves in such manner as to warrant recognition.  To develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit.  To promote Scout camping, which reaches its greatest effectiveness as a part of the unit's camping program...  To crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others."

Today: "Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and by such recognition cause others to conduct themselves in such manner as to warrant recognition.  Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout's experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp.  Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit, and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation.  Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others."

Seems like camping has been severely downgraded in importance and focus for the Order.  I've yet to learn how decreasing the number of camping nights by 20% makes one a better candidate for the Order.