Armymutt

The requirement says, "On a Scouting or family outing, take note of the trash and garbage you produce. Before your next similar outing, decide how you can reduce, recycle, or repurpose what you take on that outing, and then put those plans into action. Compare your results."

What happens when your troop is very LNT?  I'm trying to coach a few Scouts, but coming up short here.  They could repackage some food items, but that introduces food safety issues.  Everyone eats out of mess kits.  The only trash being produced is usually meat packaging, maybe some bags protecting veggies, or a can or two.  Thoughts on how to proceed here?

45 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Not sure it has anything to do with the Covid interruptions.  Did they have to have any skits approved first?  The newest attitude on such things is, from my recent experience, one of overly zealous concern with something maybe hurting feelings or hinting at stuff once just part of normal life interactions.  Especially NO possible inuendo or suggestion of body functions, animal or human.  In some instances we no longer are supposed to sing the old Region Twelve song, for example, as one of the early versions, and the ones most of us recollect has nakedness suggested.  The old standby trainge elephant skit is not acceptible, nor the dumb two scouts arguing about belts, but not noting that is the topic, noting length.  The JCPenney skit is no longer generlly allowed, nor the one with fish(suckers) hanging on a line.  The really sad thing is that they are exposed to far worse daily on TV and in public where the four letter word is now so common few even notice.  And TV programs often have so many beeps in them that it is simply tiresome.  Just my thoughts, but I am of the lost generation when we still were innocents and still were neighborhood families.  

 

They do the same dumb skit they have done for the last 4 years that I have known these kids.  One introduces himself as POTUS and his body guard is Chuck Norris.  He gets kidnapped and the kidnapper is revealed to be his body guard.  The body guard's boss is revealed to be someone else.  That's literally the whole skit.  It's about as funny as it reads.  I've tried to introduce them to the old ones, which apparently will seem new to the kids today.  For example, the filming scene where they go through many iterations until reaching perfection, only to find they ran out of film.  The new socks where the last one needs i pair a month.  

We attended the Railroading MB weekend at the NC Transportation Museum this past weekend.  On Saturday night, there was an all camp fire.  I noticed that almost all of the skits were terrible.  Not funny at all.  The kids were laughing, but, as one ASM noted, "so was the audience watching 'Ass' in Idiocracy".  Did we lose the idea that skits had a punchline?  I thought it was just our guys, but almost every troop who performed had something that was about as funny as kids saying "six, seven".  At this point, I'd be happy to see a kid run on stage declaring a small leafy branch to be the infant tree.  It's not just skits, but most of the other stuff is in the Handbook, if they ever actually open it.  

On 10/16/2025 at 12:49 PM, HashTagScouts said:

When programming is working as it should, this is one element that is correct to evaluate the health of the unit and make SM aware of blind spots. If younger youth are getting pencil-whipped through requirements. and older youth who should be teaching are not, the unit is not healthy.

The problem we have is a transient environment.  I'd say about 50 % of our troop is military.  We are also a very active troop, so we attract a lot of kids from other troops.  That's great, except they come with varied backgrounds.  For example, we just received what one might consider a really great gift in Scouting - two 17 y/o Eagles who are "Scouting nerds".  They are smart, have a strong interest in the program, and have the experience and capabilities we need.  While they don't want to be patrol leaders, they are the perfect pair to demonstrate what right looks like to our Scouts.  The other side of the coin is the kid who's been in Scouting for over a year, is a Second Class and doesn't know the Scout Law or Oath.  Having the older Scouts teach briefs well, but when they don't have the skills, knowledge, or motivation, it's a recipe for disaster.  We just had our first campout as new patrols.  The storming phase of team development was very evident.  It didn't help that one PL was more likely to be found playing football with the rest of the older Scouts than he was leading his patrol.  The other PL arrived with a fever and spent the weekend in his tent - way to go parents.  The third one "didn't feel like coming" because he wanted to play video games all weekend.  His patrol also contains the SPL and ASPL and they still were all over the place.  Maybe in 6 months, we'll have some well tuned patrols.  It will help when the rest of the older boys age out in January.  

50 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

If the program does not continuously use the skills from T-1st, then the program itself is lacking. Reqs are only one-and-done when the program is lacking. 

We don't get more repetitive training than the oath and law.  This is a kid who has been in the troop three months.  He came to us from another troop.  During his BOR, it came out that he wasn't aware he earned Fingerprinting MB at summer camp and doesn't recall the classes.  I can recall the exact setting, location, and principles in attendance at my Fingerprinting MB in 1991.  How this kid can't recall his from Aug 2025 is beyond me.

One of the questions that comes to mind is, does a Scout have to know the Law and Oath after achieving the rank of Scout?  It's no longer a requirement for advancement.  We all take it for granted that a Scout would know the two things we say at the beginning of every meeting, but is it a requirement?  I suspect they are not doing BORS correctly.  My wife is a committee member, soon to be the Advancement Chair.  She said they don't have a discussion with the Scout not present.  Another problem is, they try to cram all the BORs into one hour.  Last night we had 4 for Tenderfoot and 1 for Second Class.  

They are handled at the district level.  I don't think anyone from the troop sits on them.  

47 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

If the SM is signing things off, thrn there really isn't anything that you can do. It is to bad the adults are denying the scout a real growth opportunity. Only thing you can do is become SM yourself.

 

Edit: perhaps talk with the SM about having the PLs teach their patrols some of the second class skills. The SM and ASMs will only observe.  Have him watch this scout. 

 

Encourage patrol v patrol games using the skills.

I volunteered to be the SM.  I'm getting weird vibes.  The SM stated that he is not going to be the SM after the first of the year.  Of all the ASMs, I'm kind of the front runner - proactive, understand the program, grew up in it, advocating for the patrol method circa nineth edition of the handbook.  When I mentioned it to the SM, he said, "well, maybe I'll stay on a little longer."  Having the CC and the SM from the same family is generally considered bad, unless you have no other options.  I'm trying to get us to have 3/4 of the month be patrol meetings so that the patrols can develop the skills and the leadership.  I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle.

I mentioned previously the 15 y/o Scout whose mom wants him to make Eagle by summer.  Nice enough kid, but incompetent as hell.  Tonight was his Second Class BOR.  He still doesn't know the Scout Law and Scout Oath.  The SM acts like this kid is the second coming of Green Bar Bill.  The CC, his wife, doesn't seem to have an issue with it.  The SM has previously complained, at length, about incompetent Scouts.  I can't figure this one out.  They are essentially paving a path for him.  The SM and his SPL son set up the new patrols so that it was all but assured that the Scout would be the PL.  Where in the rank progression path is a speed bump for slowing things down until competence is gained?  Is this Scout going to be awarded Eagle without knowing the basics of Scouting?  We have an 11 y/o who could stomp this kid into the ground when it comes to Scouting knowledge.  

2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

I just realized a pet peeve....people who disagree with and are obviously unhappy with the organization, yet continue to voluntarily sigh up for it.

It's definitely something that confuses me.  Why would you sign up with an organization that has ideas you disagree with and then change them?  Why not create your own organization?

Our SM asked me for my opinion on appointing an Outdoor Ethics Guide.  Looking into the job description, it seems kind of a low threshold of responsibility position.  It's not clear what the job does.  I don't foresee any changes to our program based on LNT inputs.  We already do that pretty well.  Has anyone utilized this position?

1 minute ago, HashTagScouts said:

Hype him up that there are some cool options for patrol patches with that name!

I showed him the Black Pearl Patrol Patch.  The guys all liked it.

26 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Perhaps the "side quests" could start as just fun stuff to do. Find the advancement opportunities hidden within. For example: Get the patrol to just go the local park to play. While there notice the different trees, plants and signs of animal life. 

That's kind of what we did.  We covered 12 Second Class requirements on that hike.  First aid discussions while walking.  Demonstrations during rest stops.  I'm offering orienteering next month.  A large portion of the troop is off on Monday the 10th while their parents have to work.  Trying to get a contingent together to hit our council camp to give the young ones something to do.  Signing off a First Class requirement helps.  

Well, we reorganized the troop this month.  The SPL created three patrols from four, spreading the various ages across each patrol.  The old patrol identities were disposed of.  Our situation did make some things a foregone conclusion.  Each patrol only had one really viable candidate for PL.  We just have too many young Scouts and too many older ones who either hit 18 by January or who are leaving the program at the end of the year (ES who proudly states that he doesn't know any knots).  They have created new identities - patrol names, flags, yells, and cheers.  Our first campout is next weekend. 

My son, an 11 y/o G.I. Joe fan, was really upset that his patrol chose Buccaneers over Vipers.  He's autistic, so he takes every disappointment rather roughly.  I pointed out to him that they can do a whole lot more with the pirate theme and that most of his patrol mates have dads in their 20s to early 40s and have no exposure to an 80's toy line, despite it having a rather large role in our house.  I think he's on board (no pun intended) with the idea.  Told them they can name their dining fly after a pirate ship, adopt pirate code names, make a sign for their campsite with a pirate theme, etc.  

I've been hyping up the idea of patrol activities - hikes, campouts, etc.  I keep trying to get our new 18 y/os to register as adults for that purpose.  The 16 y/os keep forgetting that they can also go on a campout as a provisional patrol, as long as they have someone over 21 and another adult.  At the same time, the new PLs can set up a patrol outing to work on advancement.  To get that idea moving, I set up a 5-mile hike for those needing Second Class.  We had three Scouts attend, and a new recruit.  Still trying to figure out how to get more attendance at these "side quests".  

When we dissolved the Pack, the funds were dispersed to the units the Scouts moved to.  If that unit did not establish a fund for the Scout, the funds were retained by the committee and the Pack paid dues to the new unit for the Scout until those funds ran out.  Imperfect system, but the most fair thing we could come up with.  The CO retained the equipment.  Ok, realistically, we abandoned the equipment in the CO's big shed.  There's a troop there.  They can have the sleeping bags, sleep mats, and tent.  Can't give away a PWD track around here, so it's there if someone restarts the pack.  Our CO wasn't really involved with us and treated us little different than an outside organization using their facilities.  There was no way they were getting any funds, most of which were dues paid by parents.

1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

Scouts (or anyone else for that matter) who asks, "please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance", and then begins with "I pledge of allegiance" instead of "I pledge allegiance".  Those are usually the same Scouts (or others) who insert a comma into the line "one nation under God".

I've never heard anyone say "I pledge of allegiance", however there is traditionally a natural rhythm to the pledge that provides a pause between "nation" and "under".  Just as there is between "allegiance" and "to", "flag" and "of", "America" and "and", and "Republic" and "for".  

I've known our CC for a few years now, well before we even entered the troop.  She is looking more and more exhausted these days.  We got a couple of new families in and there have been complaints from them constantly.  Apparently, there are complaints from other parents too.  When did this become a thing?  When I was a kid, parents had minimal contact with the troop, unless they were registered.  She does a great job and I don't want her to quit.  Personally, I'm of the mindset that the CC doesn't have the responsibility to investigate any complaints.  It's not in the job description.  When I was the pack CC, and when my wife was before me, our policy was that complaints are only accepted from registered adults who actively participate.  Anything else was peripheral noise from people who don't really care about the program.  She had a parent who had been in the troop for all of 4 days screaming at her because of the cellphone thing.  She's too nice to tell the lady to pound sand and find a different unit.  I'd like to help her out.  Husband is the acting SM and we had a few discussions this weekend.  The kids are ok - we caught two of them in a pretty significant lie.  Another parent came with a complaint that her 12 y/o son saw an 11 y/o boy naked.  When I asked the 11 y/o, he reported that the 12 y/o peeked in the window of his tent while he was changing.  I was inclined to chalk it all up to little boys being little boys, but the mom of the 11 y/o, who was also willing to ignore it, is now cocked and ready to launch an attack on the 12 y/o's family.  I'm realizing that Scouting, like veterinary medicine, is fun until the parents get involved.

That looks really cool!

14 hours ago, skeptic said:

If my memory serves, when we did our first trek at Philmont, a fly was part of our gear, and we were specifically encouraged to put it up FIRST and put other gear beneath.  It is an important piece of any site, especially in areas subject to rain or mists.  In cases of drive-ins, a heavier-duty type can be useful, but packing works best with the lightweight ones.  And you do not need poles if you have trees and so on, though they make it easier.  

That's what I'm encouraging.  We're rather limited on trees with appropriate spacing here in NC.  They are either 5 feet apart or 100.  I know at Philmont, we ditched half the poles and just used some that were about 6' tall.  The fly went to the ground.  Helped out in some massive rain storms.

14 hours ago, SSScout said:

Hammers?   Totin' Chip traditionally asks the Scout to MAKE a really good tent peg.  Hatchet(s)  part of a Scout's kit, yes? 

Our Troop used to (I should check on this) make poles out of saplings and the tent pegs were kept for use and as examples for the next Scouts.... 

As for the tarp/ shelter, the Troop of my yoooth  made them out of 4 mill plastic and heavy duty duck tape and grommet sets.  Ten by ten,  made shelter tents and dining flies and such. Older Scouts took 'em to Philmont and Jamborees, said others ooo'ed and awww'ed at them...

I've tried to get them to make stakes and get blank stares.  The handbook doesn't show how and Scout's Life is a paltry version of its prior form.  Most of our Scouts don't carry their own hatchet and the troop's hatchet isn't the best for hammering.  Also, it's less desirable for use as a lever to extract the nails when stuck and I'd rather Scout not use it as a digging implement.

We decided to add dining flies to our camping gear, partially as a team building exercise, partially as a Scout skill exercise, but mostly to help build patrol identities and provide shelter.  I used the instructions found here: https://troop279.us/patrol-dining-fly/

My wife and son helped hold the poles while I tied the knots for the adult fly so I could do a test set up.  Poles need straightened and we need to get hammers for the troop, but otherwise, it looks like it will work.

5 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Interesting turn of discussion, this...

""parent wants son to go from Scout to Eagle by Christmas.""

Has the Scout been asked what HE wants from Scouting?   Mom wants an Eagle badge....

I had a discussion with the Scout last night when he wanted to test for Second Class and couldn't tell me when it is appropriate to use a fire for cooking or other purposes.  I pointed out that there are people with the Eagle badge and people with the Eagle badge who actually know the stuff, and asked what type he wanted to be.  He said he wanted to be the latter.  I pointed out that he couldn't list the Leave No Trace Principles, let alone tell me how to apply them, for example, when it came to fires.  I signed off some other stuff, but he will need to return to studying the material.

The SM and I talked yesterday about our philosophy with the program.  We agree that it's not Cub Scouts and mastery is the standard.  Let's face it, we aren't talking about things that are all that difficult, and the expectation is that if you are going to be in the club, then you need to actually fulfill your obligations to the club.  I won't sign off on my own son's stuff without him having a level of mastery that I feel is acceptable.  Some things are pretty simple - put the flag up once and I'm satisfied that you know how to do it.  When it comes to first aid or safety items, I want to make sure the Scout is confident and competent at the tasks required for his/her rank level.

New kid showed up last week.  Went camping with us this past weekend.  Can't seem to figure out the patrol method - kept coming to the adults for everything.  Mom thinks he can earn Eagle by Christmas.  Has him submitting videos for all sorts of requirements.  In one, he is obviously reading off a cue card.  In another, he ties a square knot instead of a sheet bend.  I told the acting SM that I'm not comfortable accepting these as an appropriate level of skill to sign off the requirement.  He agrees that it is strange.  Has anyone encountered this sort of thing?  It's an amazing hyper focus on rank advancement over actually being a Scout.  I push my son to learn the material so he can advance, but this is something else.  

4 hours ago, Tron said:

I think there are two or three things here. 

The scouts do not need to have their phones out and as adults we have an opportunity to teach the scouts to exercise self control by keeping their phones put away unless truly needed. Taking away and securing the phones as a default behavior makes adult leaders the wardens and conditions the scouts to being told when it is ok and when it is not ok to have a device out. 

Phones are a useful tool for the scouts. Scouts can use them to reference scout materials, use them for orienteering, checking maps, etc ... and the great big bonus is that if there is an accident and a scout has a phone they can quickly call for help. It's a tool, we want them to have them, but we need them to have the self control to keep them put away unless truly necessary. 

Parents need to backoff and leave their kids alone. Children need space to grow; boys especially need freedom to be about unsupervised to gain the confidence to function. Helicoptering and electronic leashing children is known to cause anxiety and depression. 

For us, it's mitigation of an unnecessary liability.  An ideal Scout is trustworthy, but reality is often different.  I've had a Scout close the curtain to his cabin in my face when it's time to clean the shower house and latrine, knowing full well that I can't go into that space and get him out.  We had a parent insist that her son passed the Swimmer test at camp but they didn't record it.  I watched the same kid start drowning after swimming 15 yards on Saturday.  We have an 11 y/o refuse to head back to camp at 10 PM because he couldn't find his $1000 phone.   I don't need parents suing me because Timmy's phone got damaged or lost.  Even if they lose, I'd still have to pay a lawyer for the defense.  I'm unwilling to put myself in the position of being accused of allowing cyber bullying or worse.  One method the Scoutmaster is considering is setting a rule of phones only being allowed for Scouting purposes.  Using it for something else is demonstrating that the Scout is not Trustworthy.  That prevents the Scout from advancing in rank because they aren't living by the Scout law.  I think maybe setting a position requirement is better.  PLs, SPL, and Troop Guides can have phones for access to instructional material and time keeping.  I still think it's a liability.

As far as adults, I also expect them to use their phones only for Scouting needs.  For example, entering requirements in SB because the Scouts keep forgetting to bring their handbooks.  I have no problem with putting my phone away for the weekend and wouldn't mind just leaving it at home.  

The other thing I forgot to mention is that phones present another opportunity for conspicuous displays of wealth that run counter to the values of Scouting.  Scouting is supposed to be open to all kids.  It's hard to feel welcome in an environment where some kids have wealthy enough parents to be a 10 y/o with a smartphone and another with parents who can barely afford to buy a Scout uniform and camping gear.  

23 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Good grief.

The cellphone is just another tool like a pocketknife. Maybe add to chit card. If a scout abuses the privilege, take it away, teach, trust, and return it.

My $0.02.

P.S. SOS Flashlight is a pretty cool and simple Android app.

How do you ensure it isn't being used to stay up all night?  How do you ensure it isn't being used to bully?  We actually had conversations going on vs the total silence we had during summer camp where everyone was glued to their screens.  We have a bunch of "barracks lawyers" who complain that we didn't specify this or that wasn't permitted.  It's far easier to simply put them away safely.  I don't need an 11 y/o freaking out again and yelling at us that he's not going back to camp because he set his $1000 phone down somewhere.