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CalicoPenn

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Posts posted by CalicoPenn

  1. 6 hours ago, FireStone said:

    Coming from the BSA, this doesn't mean much. Wasn't it just a year or two before they lifted the ban on gay scouts that they also reaffirmed their commitment to that policy? 

    What does the DRP have to do with the lifting of the ban on gay scouts?  No everyone that is religious and believes in God agreed with the policy on banning gay scouts or that the DRP justified a ban on gay scouts.

    The BSA started getting in to trouble not because they had a DRP and a Scout Law that said a Scout is Reverent but because they bowed to some religions interpretation of the Bible and the DRP while ignoring other religions interpretations.  In essence, they were violating the Scout Law by letting some heavy hitters make the decision of what it meant instead of pointing out that the BSA had never before defined what God's words meant or treated some religions with more respect than others rather than equally across the board.  I remember when a major part of A Scout is Reverent meant that a Scout (and Scouters and Scouting) respected other religions - and not just Christians, Jews and Muslims respecting each other but Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Southern Baptists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Mormons, etc. respecting each other too. 

    The only thing this does is close the door on allowing atheists in (for now).

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  2. It seems we may need a reminder of who the G2SS is designed to protect.

    Ostensibly, the G2SS is designed to protect the Scouts and the Scout Leaders.  Follow the G2SS and things should go just fine for everyone.

    But - the G2SS is not designed to protect Scouts and Scouters.  It is designed to protect the corporation known as the Boy Scouts of America.  It is designed to deflect liability back down to units and unit leaders.  Scout drowns while swimming on a Troop campout - parents sue (of course naming the BSA - deepest pockets).  Did you follow the G2SS and the Safe Swim Defense?  If the answer is no, or even a tepid "well kinda", National's lawyers and insurance company can make a case that they provided you specific guidance and you failed to follow it, therefore their liability is limited.

    Why this language about no one on one both inside AND outside Scouting?  Too many cases of Scout leaders molesting lads they know through Scouting on non-Scout related outings/meetings, etc. where the BSA is sued because the Scout leader met the lad through the Scouts and the BSA response of "The molestation took place on a non-Scout related trip" not being strong enough to absolve the BSA of some liability - but if the G2SS says that a Scout leader can't meet one on one with a Scout outside of Scouting, their case becomes stronger - the leader, who the BSA can prove took the online YPT class, has been warned - and now is violating the BSA policies as well as breaking the law.  Lower liability for the BSA.

    Does that mean your son's BSA friend can't come over to your house if your the only adult there?  Of course not - the BSA doesn't have police to enforce the G2SS and if a complaint is filed - unless there are criminal acts taking place - its doubtful it will really go anywhere. 

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  3. I remember reading the original thread where the issue of the so-called feminist ruination of TLJ was reported on and decided to do a bit of web surfing about it.

    What I found was that there was a small group of people who were bent all out of shape that Poe Dameron got called out on the carpet (rightly I might add) for disobeying direct orders from a female superior by another female superior and they decided that Star Wars was being ruined by feminist politics.

    Other articles talked about this group of people and tried to make a connection between them and the gamer gate jerks (for those unfamiliar with gamer gate, it refers to male online game players who really hated girls and women playing online video games and cyber-stalked and harassed them - even to the point where they were harassing female game designers at gaming conventions.

    Considering that there are also people out there who were upset that Luke had a beard, that JJ Abrams killed off Han Solo, that there were too many Porgs in the movie, that there weren't enough Porgs in the movie, and that JarJar actually existed at some point, I considered the complaint with a liberal amount of sand.

    As for why Solo tanked?  It's really doubtful that a small group of people upset that Poe Dameron got told has had any significant effect on the box office.  The biggest complaint I heard about Solo is that it didn't have Han Solo in it.  I get it - it's supposed to be about a young Han Solo but for forty years, Harrison Ford has been Han Solo.  With the new Star Trek movies and Harry Potter being the possible exceptions, when movies change the actor who plays the main characters, they don't really tend to do well.

    In addition, Memorial Day weekends aren't what they used to be for movies and there was just a major Star Wars movie 6 months ago.  

    But hey, if you want to blame a woman, who are we to argue - it says a lot more about you than it does about Star Wars and Disney.

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  4. During the week, I have my briefcase with me - it's more of a tech bag to hold my computer (a Microsoft Surface) but it's got lots of pockets where I carry a leatherman tool, a flashlight, a small personal first aid kit, eyeglass repair kit, eyeglass microfiber cleaning cloth, a bottle of acetaminophen, a digital camera with spare batteries and a charger,  and a spare bandana.  Pens, pencils and paper should go without saying.

    In my car I have two seat back organizers from Duluth Trading.  One has a large first aid kit, a tool kit (wrenches, screwdrivers, etc.), a roll of tp (in a Ziploc), ice scrapers, a large flashlight (LED), spare batteries,  extra ziplocs, a road triangle set (one of the new-fangled cloth kind), jumper cables, duct tape, a trowel, a space blanket (someone gave me one and it was a handy place to put it), a small umbrella (fits in a case about the length and width of a smart phone) and a micro-fiber towel.  The other has pretty much everything I carry in my briefcase (except the computer and camera) and also a box of tissues, a plastic cup, a couple of books (I find short stories are best), spare batteries, a small High Spirit's flute, a small dinner set (small plate, knife, fork, spoon, paring knife, small cutting board, and cloth napkin), some paracord, some carabiners, and the most important thing - my Buddy Bison stuffed animal on a carabiner clipped to the organizer in such a way as to watch the world go buy as I'm driving.   Ok - so maybe this is a little overboard but I do spend a lot of time in my car.

    Otherwise, when I'm hiking I carry a "Possibles Bag" - with the standard flashlight, spare battery, knife, first aid kit, a small bit of duct tape (in the first aid kit), etc. that a prepared Boy Scout would have.

  5. 3 minutes ago, oldbuzzard said:

    Not really. We know they are all "Real Scouts"... I think the goal here is to prove or disprove the credentials of the "liberal" wing. From the responses so far  it should be clear that the inclusive group is just as involved and hence we can move on from the "no true Scotsman" fallacy...

    I don't know that we really do know that.  I know a number of them are all "Real Scouts" but it's also been my experience that some of the most ardent defenders of "Eagle Scout Standards" have never been Eagle Scouts themselves.  

  6. I think it's about time for both girls in Scouts and Venturers/Sea Scouts in OA .  And since you did put it in I&P, but not necessarily meaning to open a can of worms, I'm looking forward to when the BSA finally gets out of the discrimination game altogether and allows agnostics and atheists to join.

    Arrow of Light, Eagle Scout, OA Vigil Honor, OA Chapter Chief, Lodge Vice Chief,  National Camp School Day Camp Program, National High Adventure Base staff (Okpik before it became a Council/Unit program - and summer session), Assistant Scoutmaster, Scoutmaster, District Committee, Unit Committee and Merit Badge Counselor.

     

     

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  7. 27 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

    G,

    Mike Rowe would be an outstanding CSE.   Unfortunately, he'll never be selected.  Not in a million years.  Why?  He'd upstage everyone at HQ in Irving.  Without even trying.

    Mike Rowe is an actor with a degree in communications studies.  His acting roles have given him a platform to make his opinions known but he has zero experience in running a multi-million dollar business.  Yes, he is an Eagle Scout - his Eagle Scout Project was reading to the blind.  Based on comments many have made in the past on this forum, if someone were to ask if reading to the blind would be a good Eagle Scout Project, most people would say no and lament about the quality of projects going downhill making the Eagle Scout rank less prestigious.

    Michael Surbaugh is an experienced administrator with the BSA, working his way up from DE.  He has a degree in youth agency administration.  He is also an Eagle Scout - unfortunately, there is no handy information about what his project was.  

    I suspect that even Mike Rowe would say that Michael Surbaugh is better qualified to be CSE than he is.

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  8. On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 6:03 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

     

    Still in there.  Page 92 has this

    Note: Pioneering projects, such as monkey bridges, have a maximum height of 6 feet. Close supervision should be followed when Scouts are building or using pioneering projects.

    Yep - I missed it - since its now in an appendix that deals mostly with working from heights and what the OSHA requirements are for doing so.  Thanks for pointing it out.

  9. On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 3:56 PM, David CO said:

    OK, I guess you are serious, so I will give you a serious answer. No jokes this time.

    Instead of driving the LDS out of scouting, why don't we ask them to share with us their institutional knowledge and experience (which has made it possible for them to run a large, global, and well funded religious institution without paying enormous salaries)?

    The LDS is driving the LDS out of Scouting - not the BSA.  The biggest growth area for the LDS is not in the USA - its overseas.  The LDS has been using the BSA as its youth program for its convenience.  It is no longer convenient for them because larger and larger chunks of their organization cannot access the BSA program so the LDS is creating their own program which will be consistent globally rather than have a BSA centered program in the states and a "separate but equal (??)" program overseas.

     

  10. On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 5:17 PM, perdidochas said:

    I pretty much agree.  We need a better balance between risk and adventure.  Some of the BSA rules are just patheticly overcautious, and while I understand where they are coming from, they make us look too risk averse almost to the point of cowardice. For example, when I was a Tiger Cub Den Leader, we had a family camp at a local military recreation area.  One of the Tiger Dads brought his canoe.  As the Tiger DL, I was the one who had to tell him the Tigers couldn't go out on it.  The water was flat, and was shallow for quite a ways. The breeze was onshore. There was no logical reason that any Cub with a parent (or adult who had canoed before) couldn't go out on a quick 5 minute trip with their Cub that day.  The boy ended up dropping out before crossover to Wolf.  SImilarly, our rules about paintball are almost irrational.  Not to mention most of the things that Qwayze mentioned (except skinny dipping) 

     

     

    I have to ask - where-ever did the idea that a Cub Scout couldn't go out in a canoe with their parent?   Canoeing is allowed in the Cub Scouts - they just can't canoe in moving water (aka a river or creek) or on float trips.

    • No youth drivers   This has been true for a very very long time - at least since the 1970's - and now, many States actually have limits on the number of people a youth driver can have in a car.
    • No skinny dipping   This was pretty much true in most places back in the 1970's as well.  Even the all-boys private (read Catholic) schools were ending the practice of swimming classes and practice without a suit back then.
    • SM/SPL screen every song/skit   We did this back in the 70's as well - though mostly to prevent embarrassing the Troop at a Summer Camp or Camporee campfire but it also made sure that skits weren't mean spirited or singling out any individual.
    • No boxing   I hate to break it to Mike Rowe but boxing wasn't allowed back when he was a Scout in the 1970's.  
    • No independent patrol overnights    Patrols can certainly go camping on their own - they just need approval from their Scoutmaster and have appropriate adult leadership around.  My patrol camped on its own every June - and always had a couple of adults on the troop who just sat back in camp and read (we did feed them) - we needed someone to drive us after all.
    • No one-on-one contact, down to electronic correspondence   And in what way is this a bad idea?
    • Pioneering project height limits    No longer in the G2SS - have at it.
    • Power tool restrictions   I'm not sure that this is a bad thing at all - at least not these days.  Lets think about it - we moan and groan about all the adult volunteers we are able to attract who have no outdoor experience, don't seem to be interested in taking IOLs, and whose presence tends to "dumb down" the outdoor adventure aspects of the program.    I would argue that the majority of our adult volunteers aren't experienced enough with power tools themselves to be able to safely teach and supervise 11 year olds in the use of power drill, let alone a circular saw.  People get so bent out of shape whenever that dreaded, evil National announces something new - imagine the outcry if National were to put together a "Safe Power Tool" program?
    • No PL sign-off in Scoutbook   Who, at National, ever said a PL can't sign off a requirement in a Scout's handbook?  Uh uh - this is a unit decision - that has infiltrated the far reaches of Scoutdom like a bad cold virus as people in their units make up their own rules then go on to District positions and then start training other people in the way's of their Troop instead of the ways of the BSA program.
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  11. On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 9:13 PM, Chisos said:

    Exactly.  When paintball is perfectly fine for the church youth group but banned by the Boy Scouts, we have a problem.

    Right you are - why, the BSA should be the leader is teaching youth how to shoot other people - not church youth groups.  /s

  12. 10 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    Two words: Title IX.

    Southwest PA is a big sports culture. Some folks know the rule books (i.e., the federal, state, and even school district statues) by heart. The notion of "parallel" teams in soccer, for example, is not strange to anyone. Most are aware that boys and girls may share facilities and even scrimmage together, but the two teams have different standings in the league.

    The caveat: from time to time an official waiver is given to a girl to play on a boy's team (and rarely, vice versa) in a sparse school district.

    Title IX does not apply to the membership practices of the Boy Scouts of America.  That's actually in the regulations.

    It will apply ONLY to those parts of the program that received federal financial aid.  For instance, Title IX would apply to the Soccer and Scouting program in those Councils that received HUD grants for the program.  When it comes to the Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Venturing program, I do not believe that National, Councils or any local units receive any federal funding to support it so Title IX would not apply.

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  13. 17 hours ago, ParkMan said:

    I agree that it's on the local units to retain their older scouts.  You describe nicely some of the considerations.

    I'd like to see national do some thing I've never seen before in Scouting - really focus on fixing this.  For example - I'd like to see training on 14-17 program development and on retention.  I'd like to see true experts emerge who work with the troops on annual calendar and meeting structure. And so on.

     

    National can't fix youth retention issues.  It truly has limited control on how individual CO's operate their units or how unit leaders operate their units.  National provides the tools for local volunteers to run a successful unit program that attracts and retains members from 11 to 17.  (Adjust to your age group program as needed).   Then they pretty much rely on the first part of the Scout Law and trust that people will do it the right way.  

    National can provide all the tools in the world but if people at the unit level don't bother to use them, then its really not National's fault.  Unless people would prefer to have the BSA run on the Girl Scout model where the councils actually control the units, we, at the local level, have got to stop blaming National for membership losses and start looking in the mirror.  Losing older scouts?  In my experience, the units that lose most of their older Scouts are the units where the adults run and control things instead of trusting the boy-led program because, well - they just know better than the BSA.  

    What can National do about membership losses?  Exactly what it is doing - expanding the market.  The Mormon church decided to create an internal youth group due to pressure from their "foreign" branches, where their growth is greatest.  From a business perspective it makes perfect sense that the BSA would open their doors to girls to try to make up for that membership hit.  Blaming National for a redirection of resources and efforts by a religious organization is blind to reality and unfair to National.  

  14. 59 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

    Correct we are the Boy Scouts of America, but as a point of historical fact the BSA grew out of association with the English Scouts.  If you are not cognizant and aware of the basic roots of the organization, then the shift of emphasis can be missed.

    I still wonder the relevancy of a 1912 Royal Charter to an American organization founded in 1910.  

  15. On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 9:28 AM, SB_Eagle said:

    You are completely out of line with this post.  Conservatives supported the right to vote for women and blacks amongst strong democratic opposition.  Democrats still only pretend to care about all women and minorities just so far as to gain votes, and as long as they don't have their own opinions against the party line.

    This is about preserving a program dedicated to helping boys, and we have just told boys in the BSA that they are no longer a priority and that they are undeserving of their own program. 

    You are confusing conservative with political parties - it was southern conservative democrats that opposed those rights. 

  16. 7 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

    Not disputing that the activities can be done by anyone of any gender.

    That being said, the first sections of the older SM guides are clearly about boys, male youths.  The intent is to focus on the boys, and the program is interpreted and (at the time) designed for boys.  The discussion is about boys.

    From the British - About the Boy Scouts Association - Royal Charter 1912

    The aim of the Association is to develop good citizenship among boys by forming their character -- -training them in habits of observation, obedience, and self-reliance --- inculcating loyalty and thoughtfulness for others --- teaching them services useful to the public, and handicrafts useful to themselves --- promoting their physical, mental, and spiritual development.

    From 1913 Scoutmaster Handbook - The ultimate Aim of Scouting

    Aim to secure balanced, symmetrical activities for your patrols. Remember your Scout is four sided, that he is physical, mental, social and religious in his nature. Do not neglect any one side of him, but get the proper agencies to cooperate with you for these ends. Let the boys do what ever they can. Merely insist on adequate adult supervision. Above all be patient, practical and business like and remember that old heads never grow on young shoulders. The Scout Master should take his place in the community by the side of the teacher of secular and religious instruction. He is an educator and is dealing with the most plastic and most valuable asset in the community — boyhood. Let him take his task seriously, look upon his privilege with a desire to accomplish great things, and always remember that the good of the boys is his ultimate aim.

     

    We're the Boy Scouts of America - we don't have a royal charter so what's the point of bringing it up?

    As for the 1913 Scoutmaster handbook - my response is it doesn't matter what it says - the Scoutmaster Handbook has changed a number of times since 1913 - and it will change a number of times in the future.  A Scoutmaster Handbook from 1913 is irrelevant to 2018.  Like a physics or chemistry textbook from the 1960's, its now mostly just a window to the past - with many outdated concepts.  You can probably even find a more contemporary Scoutmaster(s) Handbook that uses the word Boy a lot - and it will be superseded and outdated when the BSA simply replaces Boy with Youth.  Society evolves - always has - there are things that were done 200 years ago that we would just not put up with anymore.  There are things that were done 105 years ago that we would just not put up with anymore.  Why should anyone be shocked if the BSA handbooks change to emphasis youth over boys?  If that instrument that many consider to be the infallible word of G-D can change (spelled that way out of respect for others) to change Thou Shalt Not Kill to You Will Not Murder, then by goodness, the Scoutmaster Handbook isn't exempt from being changed.

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  17. 11 hours ago, jamskinner said:

       Supposably, the Boy Scouts are not going to change the program.   If that is the case then why are they waiting until next year before adding girls.  They have to make changes of course.

    They are waiting until next year so that some of the first female scouts to come into the Scouts BSA program will be crossing over from the Cub Scout program - that's how they've always said they envisioned the timeline.

    I've asked this numerous times - and no one has ever been able to answer - exactly how do you see the program itself (not the YPT stuff, not the logistics - the actual program - rank requirements, merit badges, camping/hiking/summer camp program) changing?  What rank requirements will change?  Will lashing be changed to macramé?  Merit badges on cosmetology?  All the girls I've talked to (current Venturers) have said they wanted to join the Boy Scouts because of the program that the BSA already has - they wouldn't want anything to change program wise.

  18. 16 hours ago, ham_solo said:

     Most likely the best thing we can do for the girls is find whatever girls troop gets formed in our district or whatever and send the girls that way, just as we have in the past sent them to those couple of venture crews we had in the area before.

    I see girl scouts as experimental, and not every troop needs to do it, heck there are not even enough girls for that.  The most natural thing will be for a couple of troops in each district/council to be the 'girl' troops for now and to send them all there.

    Sounds great on paper but consider what might happen 3 or 4 years down the road when the Pack's Webelos, who are now used to being around girl cub scouts all decide to move to the Scout Troop that is linked with the Scout Troop the girls join - what will that do to your membership numbers?

  19. 11 hours ago, jamskinner said:

      As a scout are you going to pee in front of other boys?  Most likely.  Are you going to pee in front of girls.  Heck no.

    I believe it might be a violation of YPT for boys to pee in front of other boys, let alone in front of girls.  So the proper answer to "As a Scout" would be "heck no".

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  20. 9 hours ago, cocomax said:

    Well, I can tell you one thing after reading the news today and polls and comment sections and twitter, facebook, minds, youtube and gab . . .

    The Boy Scouts was a really well loved group by most of America,  I read so many wonderful things about the Boy Scouts, many men that were glad they were Boy Scouts as boys. Many moms that had nice things to say about the Boy Scouts as well as the Girl Scouts.

    The general public is taking the end of Boy Scouts pretty hard, as they say you do not realize how much something meant to you until it is gone.

    The Boy Scouts will be missed, they had a good run, 108 years.

     

    The majority of Americans just don't give a rats patootie about this - and that's always been the way of Americans - on just about every issue.  I doubt if most of the people commenting in newspapers, on twitter, on facebook, etc. actually knows anything about the organization other than its name.  Our population is over 300 million yet our membership numbers are about 2.5 million - that's what, about 0.8% of the population?  Yeah - no one really cares.

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  21. 10 hours ago, JoeBob said:

    Here's a nice summary of how we got here:

    https://www.toddstarnes.com/show/boy-scouts-announce-plans-to-drop-the-word-boy/

    "The Boy Scouts used to be in the business of teaching boys how to become young men — to keep themselves physically strong and morally straight.

    But somewhere along the way – Boy Scout leaders lost their moral compass and tumbled into the deep abyss of political correctness.

    I don’t think there’s a merit badge for that."

     

     

     

     

    This is just a summary of how conservatives think the world is blowing up because the Boy Scouts are allowing girls to join.

    They were wrong about the world ending when women and blacks were given the right to vote.  They were wrong about the world ending when gays could officially be married.

    They are wrong about this too.

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