CynicalScouter

Then let me rephrase: Given the Kosnoff "kill BSA, kill and liquidate" contingent can control over 33% of votes, that means either 1) a failed bankruptcy (BSA emerges with no reorg plan, dies from the ensuing lawsuit tsunami) or 2) a Chapter 7 liquidation or 3) a judge-ordered cramdown which as TCC said, there is NO chance of happening

Yes and they already have. How much of the recent camp sales were a) because of COVID b) declining membership and c) anticipated payments or d) a mix. Also, there's at least one Council that is selling their office in a mad dash to save having to sell their camp.

I feel the same way. I don't see the sides coming to an agreement on a settlement fund number, which means BSA voluntarily liquidates OR faces sex abuse lawsuits for the next decade, effectively killing the program anyway.

The ONLY time I've heard a judge say that was when it was a contempt proceeding, or the threat of one.

Here's an interesting thought that a bankruptcy lawyer might need to parse out. TCC is paid for by debtor (BSA). Debtor BSA runs out of cash in August 2021. No more payments to TCC and we are MONTHS if not YEARS away from a resolution. TCC then becomes a CREDITOR IN THEIR OWN RIGHT against the "estate" of BSA.

Kick it to District Court where this will grind for another 1-2 years. Meanwhile, BSA loses all cash on hand and does what pay the attorneys with IOUs? As I noted: even the warp-speed Estimation plan is 111 days. This would take multiples of that.

This is why I don't think BSA was lying/bluffing when it said it would run out of money by the summer. This keeps going and BSA is going to run out of money to pay TCC, its own lawyers, etc. Then, I honestly don't know what happens in bankruptcy when the debtor runs out of $$. I would guess the lawyers would then have a lien on any claims coming out of the bankruptcy.

No. The Zoom link appears limited to parties and attorneys. I would expect media reports and even a transcript of portions later. EDIT: Typically the transcript is available to lawyers and parties 2 days later and the public 60-90 days.

But National has no way of knowing that that 99% are. And the old/ancient idea that COs would serve that function to vet and maintain oversight is just laughable. So, because National cannot vet, and COs won't vet, then the only thing left is rules written for the 1%.

Just to put the fear of whomever into people that are not taking this seriously and reading/lurking this forum: 1) Three Fires Council in its last annual report indicated $3.3 million in support and revenue and $3.5 million in expenditures. 2) There were 126 abuse claims within Three Fires Council + 2 more that were in multiple councils including Three Fires. 3) Wisconsin's statute of limitations on abuse claims wasn't lifted or changed since 2007! Victims have until they day they reach 35 to file a claim. What this means is LCs are starting to see the writing on the wall. Camp sell offs are going to be happening at a rapid clip. And not only that, read this As of 2018 that was around $2.8 million dollars (Part X, Line 27 "Unrestricted net assets"). So what they are saying is that $2.8 million PLUS the sale of their camp is what is going to be required for the settlement fund. Assume they get $1 for the camp, that means payment for the 126 claims ($2,800,000/126) = $22,222. If you are with a local council, if you are a local scouter, if you are ANYONE who cares about scouting and reads this: be prepared to lose a LOT of your LC.

Three Fires Council to close Camp Freeland Leslie; cites need to pay into Settlement Fund. Remember: we were all told National would pay for it all. No LCs would be impacted. All donated funds would stay local. Dear Friend of Camp Freeland Leslie, The Boy Scouts of America’s bankruptcy filing and the necessity of a significant local council contribution to a victim’s trust has led the Three Fires Council Board of Directors to make the difficult decision to close Camp Freeland Leslie in Oxford, Wisconsin after the conclusion of the 2021 summer camp season. Three Fires Council has limited resources and with the need to make a significant contribution to a trust settlement, the Council is left with no other options than to part with CFL. A local real estate firm, which specializes in property sales of this nature, will be engaged to identify and secure a suitable buyer. If a buyer cannot be secured by the time our contribution is required, it is our intent to transfer the title of the property to the Trust. Additionally, the Council will need to contribute a significant amount, if not all, of its unrestricted reserve to this fund. This reserve has been built up over generations from investment income and will not include local Friends of Scouting gifts or permanently restricted endowment gifts from local donors. This is an emotionally challenging time. The Three Fires Council Board and the BSA have two priorities in this matter: 1. Justly compensate victims of past abuse. 2. Ensure our ability to continue the mission of the BSA in our local communities. Both of these objectives require this drastic action. Like you, a significant number of our executive board members and staff have a personal connection to Camp Freeland Leslie, as Scouts, staffers and more. None of the executive board members took this decision lightly. We must, however, put emotions aside and do what is best for the future of Scouting in Three Fires Council and for our Scouts. We anticipate multiple special events before the end of this summer’s CFL camp season that will allow all Scouts, alumni and community members to properly celebrate their memories at camp. Camp Freeland Leslie has been an important and impactful piece in the history of the council and its Scouts. We want to ensure that it is properly remembered and honored. We will hold virtual town hall meetings to answer questions and hear your feedback on this issue. These town halls will be held on Monday, March 22 and Wednesday, March 24 both at 6:30pm on Zoom. To RSVP, please use ThreeFiresCouncil.Org/CFL-Transition. We hope that you will join us for these evenings so that we may help everyone best understand the impacts of this decision. Sincerely, Daniel Zedan Anna Tuohy Clint Scharff Council President Council Commissioner Scout Executive

To be clear, we are like, miles into hypothetical territory here. This has NEVER happened before. But there are three ways National can kill your LC. 1) Your Local Council is incorporated in your state to administer the Boy Scouts of America program in that area. See Charter of the Boy Scouts of America, ARTICLE VI. LOCAL COUNCILS - INCORPORATION OF LOCAL COUNCILS. That program would not longer exist if National liquidates. Therefore, the legal basis for your LC existing just went POOF. 2) National could just simply yank your council charter (and all its assets) TODAY. NOW. Not wait for liquidation, just yank your charter. And all assets revert to the National Council. And your Council has already agreed to this in their articles of incorporation. See Charter of the Boy Scouts of America, ARTICLE VI. LOCAL COUNCILS - GENERAL. 3) The judge determines that, either independently or based on item #1 and #2 above, all LC assets = BSA National assets. Therefore, the bankruptcy court orders the assets channeled into the Settlement Fund for abuse victims. 4) Let's say #1-3 don't happen. Your Council keeps all its assets and National goes away. Guess what National (or the dead hulk known as Boy Scouts of America) has? A congressionally granted exclusive right to emblems, badges, marks, and words associated with Boy Scouts. 38 USC 30905 And a bankruptcy judge is not going to hold a federal statute unconstitutional. So sure, Circle Ten can have a youth program, maybe. But it cannot have a Boy Scouts program. In short, any council saying "Even without National we will survive" is full of bunk. P.S. Circle Ten has $15 million, but it has been losing money hand over fist for YEARS.

On the question @ThenNow asked about the Ad Hoc Committee again, it is a loose affiliation and represents absolutely no one. And this line is very, very close to the example given before: TCC does not WANT to liquidate BSA and the LCs, but BSA National and the LCs better start cooperating or else the missiles start to fly and hundreds/thousands of suits are going to get filed.

Maybe? Here's how it would work. National ceases operations/is liquidated. Councils are chartered by National under the grant Congress gave. But with National no longer in existence, those Charters cease. The incorporated entities called Local Councils can no longer meet their main function, to administer the BSA program. And since National charters Units, it means those units cease to exist as well. What that means is National revokes all unit charters. The unit funds get transferred to Councils under the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. National revokes all council charters. The council funds (which now include all unit funds) get transferred to National, again under the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. National transfers all collected funds (unit, council, and National) to the Settlement Fund for Abuse Victims and shuts down.

Yeah, random. Some came in early Notice of Appearance. Filed by Sequoia Council of Boy Scouts, Inc.. (Walter, Riley) (Entered: 02/18/2020) 02/18/2020

At first look, it is clear that they still cannot even come close to a number for how much we are talking here. This is the ball game right here Who owes what, and how much? This process would answer the "how much" and then that sets the stage for "Who"? and I though (and still think) the court may reverse it figure out the WHO first, namely, are the LCs really independent and autonomous? Or are they mere appendages of National (which means ALL LC assets are on the table). EDIT: This is gutsy. Telling a judge something is "mandatory" that he/she "shall" do is pretty gutsy. EDIT 2: Even at warp speed (which those filing the motion admit this is a FAST schedule) it will be AT LEAST FOUR MONTHS (111 days) before they have an estimate for how much is going to be owed the Abuse Claimants. That means even if the court granted the motion TODAY, that's July 5, 2021. And remember: National keeps crying it is going to run out of money any day now.

Er, sorta. Guide to Safe Scouting is a compendium of "SOME Council or SOME camp or National once upon a time got sued for this, therefore we have to ban it." So, while National may trust 90% of units, even 99%, they have written a manual for the "Edge case", that 1% of instances (or even less) where something went wrong and BSA and/or the LC got sued for it. In risk management it is called a high consequence low probability event. And with a scared, panicked, bankrupt National freaking out, all you have to say is "safe scouting" and they'll jam it into Guide to Safe Scouting even if what it really amounts to is a programmatic change they want to beat into unit leader's heads.

It is an entirely voluntary grouping. Councils are free to cooperate, not cooperate, do their own thing, hire their own counsel, etc. First, keep in mind the Ad Hoc Committee represents ONLY 8 councils Andrew Jackson Council Atlanta Area Council Crossroads of America Council Denver Area Council Grand Canyon Council Greater New York Councils Mid-America Council Minsi Trails Council Second, the committee put a warning on its documents, such as an objection to a motion And Circle Ten has made it abundantly clear the Ad Hoc committee can go do whatever it wants, Circle Ten's doing its own thing. Third, there are at least 15 councils who have filed notices of appearance and/or filed motions on their own behalf. They are operating utterly independent of the Ad Hoc Committee and, in some instances, indirect opposition to the Ad Hoc Committee Aloha Council Baltimore Area Council Bay-Lakes Council Buffalo Trail Council Capitol Area Council Circle Ten Council Del-Mar-Va Council East Carolina Council BSA, Inc. Imperial Council Boy Scouts of America San Diego Indian Waters Council Northern New Jersey Council Orange County Council Sequoia Council of Boy Scouts Simon Kenton Council Three Harbors Council Inc. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING that numerous (how numerous? No idea) councils have implicitly agreed to let the Ad Hoc committee do all the heavy lifting. BUT as I said, some council (Circle Ten, Baltimore Area) are really in go-it-alone mode, or were before November and the 80-90 thousand claims. It isn't clear if they decided to start to play nice or if those claims numbers increased the council infighting. Who knows? They aren't about to advertise openly that the Ad Hoc committee and, say, Circle Ten are screaming at each other or what not. Again, us lowly ("low level volunteers" as Scott Berger just called us) are just not given one bit of data. This forum is, bar none, the ONLY source of information about this most scouters have access to unless they want to claw through the court docket item by item. So no, this is the OPPOSITE of TCC. TCC has authority, a clearly defined role, clearly defined attorneys, and works as a team of lawyers together (or at least does so publicly, they may all squabble in the background for all we know). Ad Hoc Committee is a cat herding exercise in which a the cats range from kittens to lions and the lions are just as likely to eat the cat herder as help. It has no authority over the other 220+ councils outside of "Oh, come on, PLEASE?"

Because I was going for top 5, minus U.S. Pakistan is #6 or 7

Without giving away my council, yes. 😃

Yeah, and read it Southwest Florida Council has at least 108 claims against it. The idea they are going to tell all 108 to go away and not have to pay a dime is nonsense. If they want in on the settlement, they'll pay.

Sorry, you are right. They sent a repeat of the 2018 "all is well" thing out last week.

For the following reasons: 1) This bankruptcy is TECHNICALLY Boy Scouts of America ("National") and Delaware BSA, LLC (National's main affiliate, don't worry about it for these purposes. 2) Local Councils are TECHNICALLY "interested parties". They aren't bankrupt but they MAY be able to take advantage of the National bankruptcy given that they are co-defendants in many of the civil cases involved (e.g. John Doe Sexual Abuse Victim vs. Local Scout Council and Boy Scouts of America) Now we have two big messes to figure out and/or the judge to rule on. Are LCs really "separate": The argument being made, and that the judge hasn't ruled on yet, is that the LCs are NOT separate and are really appendages of National for a host of legal reasons arguments. The LCs are arguing they are separate for a host of legal reasons. Back and forth. Etc. If LCs ARE NOT separate, then their assets are considered National's and subject to the bankruptcy. If LCs ARE separate then.... Can LCs voluntarily participate in the settlement: National's plan is to settle ALL 80,000 sexual abuse claims against it. If LCs are truly separate, they are being given the OPTION AND CHOICE to climb on board that settlement and participate. But it is not free: if the LC wants to get any/all sexual abuse claims prior to February 2020 settled, they have to pay into the settlement fund. Again, VOLUNTARY. So, how much will it cost an LC to climb on board the settlement? That depends on a very, very ridiculously complex formula that boils down in a really, really oversimplified way to a) how many claims having been filed against the council b) how much would those claims cost (on average) c) how likely are those claims going to showing up in a courtroom and d) what assets does the Council have to offer? So, let's do another round of CynicalScouter's Magical Math. a) XYZ Council has 100 claims against it and ALL are valid. b) Each claim, on average, is going to cost $100,000 if this goes to court. This gets into some complexity, but to be blunt, it means assigning a cash value to sexual acts based on a points system. I don't want to go into details, but I think you get the idea that certain sexual abuse is more traumatizing than others. c) There's a 5% chance of it showing up in court because XYZ Council is in a state that has a statute of limitations on civil claims for sexual abuse AND is unlikely to enact a look-back window or repeal that civil statute of limitations in the future (as has happened in NY, PA, etc.) d) XYZ Council has $4 million in total assets, including the summer camp and council offices. So, the math is 100 claims * $100,000 each * 5% chance of any of those 100 claims becoming a successful lawsuit = $500,000 Since $500,000 represents only 12.5% of XYZ Council's total assets, the price of admission/the price for XYZ Council to participate in the Settlement and have ALL 100 claims against it (and any other sexual abuse claims prior to February 2020) is $500,000. Take it or leave it. But let's try that math again. Only now, the average claim is $1,000,000. 100 claims * $1,000,000 each * 5% chance of any of those 100 claims becoming a successful lawsuit = $5,000,000 Since $5,000,000 is way, way beyond XYZ Council's total assets, what is going to happen? Either the offer will be reduced down to something that results in XYZ surviving (say, $2 million from the sale of the summer camp and/or the Council offices) or XYZ goes into its own bankruptcy or XYZ walks away and takes the risk that its state never opens up the statute of limitations on civil claims for sexual abuse. What about the insurance companies?: Last problem. ALL of this assumes that National and the LCs are going to have to pay something. But the insurance companies may be on the hook for more/even more. That's, in effect, a separate track. Several insurance companies are refusing to honor their policies saying that BSA lied when it signed them about how much sexual abuse they knew was going on and/or that insurance does not cover criminal acts. That's a whole other fight. If the LCs and National can convince the judge to force the insurance companies to pay the claims, then that Magical Math up there changes. It doesn't mean LCs pay $0 to get all claims waived, but maybe it means a lot less. That's as clear as I can make it. Void where prohibited by law. Your mileage may vary.

Which is exactly the OPPOSITE of what most people were told locally and what LCs were (and still are) telling people. I gave the example of Black Swamp Area Council which as recently as last week was emailing and getting articles in the local paper about how LC funds were safe and secure and would never, ever go to pay for any of this. So...yeah.

Really? I was under the impression just the opposite. Indonesia India Philippines Bangladesh All coed