Tired_Eagle_Feathers

37 minutes ago, qwazse said:

In other words, I strongly encourage your scouts to learn plain-English definitions of equity -- from people who have to meet it out when our fellow citizens might be facing cold justice -- and proceed from there.

Oh I know what "equity" is supposed to mean.  That's why I said:

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The co-opting of these terms has been ingenious.

At face value, everyone should love equity - equality.  The devil is in the details, though.  If your idea of equity/equality means that everyone has the right to participate in something and give it the old "college try" with whatever they came to the game with, then sure, that's my idea of equity/equality.  Everyone deserves a shot at the prize.  That's equity to me.

But today, "equity" has been co-opted to mean something else entirely.  Equity now generally means "equity of outcome" (or sometimes "equity of opportunity").  Which means that if someone doesn't do as well as someone else, then the game has to be rigged to make sure that everyone ends up with the same result.  This inevitably disadvantages someone while giving an advantage to someone else.

This is why the term "equity" is so insidious today.

In my experience, the "E" in DEI always ends up being the equity I have described instead of it's traditional meaning.

Our troop basically has an endless cycle of new patrols.  New kids are put into new kid patrols.  As they grow up, they stay with their patrol, and new patrols are created for the next incoming class of kids.

The immediate effect of this is you have kids who don't know anything struggle to achieve anything.  I think there are supposed to be "troop guides" but I don't recall ever seeing them in action.  Mostly the new patrols just seem to flounder about.  Watching them try to start a campfire without being able to interfere makes me want to chew my hands off.

When I was a kid, new kids were just distributed among the existing patrols.  This enabled them to learn from more experienced scouts.

Of course part of the reason for age segregation today is the fear of child-on-child abuse.

Another problem is this "Boy Led" stuff.  This ends up feeling like the blind leading the blind.  I feel like it should be boy-led, adult-taught.  There's not much adult teaching going on, except when there are real safety concerns (shooting, rafting, etc).  The adults are pretty much supposed to stay out of the way and only make sure people don't get hurt.  I quit as an ASM in no small part because I felt like I was wasting my time if I can't teach from my experience as an Eagle Scout.

They often have patrol meetings that center around teaching, where a scout gets up and presents a powerpoint on whatever the topic is.  My son is bored to tears and I usually see him with his head down asleep on the table.

I feel like if wasn't able to teach my son at home what he needed to know to execute in Scouting he would not know much about scouting.  At least when they were starting out.

As far as the First Class First Year thing, my son has been in 2 years and just finished Tenderfoot.  If it wasn't for me pestering him about it the last few months he wouldn't have done that.  He enjoys going on scout activities but has zero motivation to earn awards or ranks.  LaaaayZzzzz.  However, pointing out that all his patrol mates were well beyond Tenderfoot did seem to spark a tiny bit of motivation.

On 5/5/2022 at 3:39 PM, T2Eagle said:

A couple additional thoughts and questions.  It is always important to remember that when you are fundraising you are technically fundraising for your Chartered Organization which owns your unit and its funds.  The money doesn't belong to the troop it belongs to the CO who is allowing the troop to use its funds.  Before you give any significant amount of money to anyone, especially council, you should make sure that's what they want done with their money.  If council wants your CO to give them $2000 then they should ask the CO directly.  This is the first thing I would respond to any council type making this kind of ask.

I have been reading old threads here about the rechartering mechanisms that are now on the table due to the lawsuit.  Seems many traditional COs are not rechartering and are instead reverting to rental agreements, and then in many cases troops become chartered through their Council.

I assume this would mean that all the troop's money in that case is actually the Council's money.

There was talk in the threads of setting up "Parents of X" corporations to charter the troop.  Seems like this would be a smarter move to protect your troop's assets.  Of course, you have to run a tight ship with your corporation or the parents running it could end up personally liable.

33 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

• The last training I saw was drastically watered down, but it is very much about political indoctrination.  The good in the badge was already everywhere in scouting.  The rest crosses the line into politics.  
• Always thought scouting explicitly taught good citizenship and specifically inclusiveness.  All are welcome.  ... The issue was scouting had trouble getting people to show-up when invited.  Specifically, scouting always had trouble recruiting from poorer families or those who's heritage did not include scouting.  

I agree 100%

3 hours ago, Eaglein87 said:

So somebody tell me how Bankruptcy is a sign that we have competent leadership at the top that are making decisions in the best interest of the Boy Scouts

I don't really have an opinion on the national leadership of Scouting, but I will say that this is clearly just a way to dump/force negotiations on sexual abuse settlement claims.

This is the way businesses legally shirk their financial obligations.

Not really a fan of it but this is what businesses do.  Doesn't sound incompetent to me in that regard.

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Religion was actually a key component of Baden-Powell's founding ideals, calling it a "fundamental factor underlying Scouting." So if we're talking "roots", religion is right there.

It was never a big part of scouting when I was in scouts.  About the only time we really encountered it was when we went to a regional event with other troops. 

I was not raised with a faith, and neither are my kids.  This is becoming more and more the norm, and I expect that eventually Scouting will catch up with it to stay in existence, like they have with girl Scouts and gay members and such.  Religion is rapidly fading in the United States.  By 2035 there will be more people who claim no religious affiliation than people who claim a Protestant faith.

And by age, it's even starker.  Already 35% of 18-29 year-olds claim no religious affiliation. 

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I kind of struggle with your approach, separating from the Pack and doing your own thing. A lot of aspects of the aims and goals of scouting are group-focused, working together as a unit, sharing knowledge and ideas, and teaching other scouts how to do things. If your son is not participating in some activities, he may be missing out on some good learning experiences. The goofy stuff isn't always just about being goofy, it's connected to developing communication skills and older scouts working with younger scouts to pass on skills and confidence, and also learning to become leaders themselves.

There are other ways to learn skills without resorting to goofiness. 

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Have you looked into the troop your son may be joining? A lot of troops still do some of the same stuff, have similar campfire programs as the pack, etc. I just wonder if you're waiting it out just to get to a troop and find that some of these common elements of scouting are still there. 

We went on their Webelos invite and we had the "pitch" from the scoutmaster.  Seems like a very active troop like mine was when I was young, doing high adventure kind of stuff.  I don't know how it's going to work out in practice, but as a kid there wasn't much opportunity for centralized buffoonery because each patrol was busy with its own tasks during the trip.

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I have always seen the religious aspect of scouting (which I believe is also how BP envisioned it as "practical religion") is that by doing scouting right, service to others, personal growth, doing a good turn daily, living the scout law, etc... one is fulfilling their religious duty (whatever that may be). As BP put it, "to do their duty to God through doing their duty to their neighbor."

This is pretty much my take on religion in general also.  Our faith is in moral action.

I am more of the "pick and choose" kind of Scouter.  I like Scouting as a whole, but for me, I'm in it for the scoutcraft.  That's what turned my crank as a Scout, and what I want my son to learn.  Now frankly, I have considered just "leaving it", and we'll just go camping as a family.  I was talking with my brother-in-law over Thanksgiving and that is what they decided to do.  He tried Cub Scouts with his son but found it to "chaotic" and decided they would just go camping as a family.

I think Scouting as a whole is a great organization when it hearkens to its roots in scoutcraft and leadership.  There are many aspects I'd like it to dump, like religion and goofiness.  These things were not a part of my Scouting experience growing up.  It's probably a pack/troop specific thing.  But there are enough positive aspects of Scouting, like scoutcraft and leadership, that make me want my son to continue to enjoy doing those things under the auspices of Scouting while ignoring the parts we don't want to do. 

Even when I was a Scout, I thought Cub Scouts overall did a disservice to Scouting, and now having been in it I believe it even more.  Even 35 years ago kids grew up fast.  Today they grow up even faster.  I think by the time a lot of kids get to age 11 what they think Scouting is about is "wussy", and thus they don't go on to Scouting.  When I was a kid in school you never let on that you were in Scouts.  It was considered XXX (rhymes with "hay").  But our Scout troop was exceptionally hard-core.  Some of the hardest work and activities I ever did I did in Scouting.  I think these kids have their perceptions skewed from Cub Scouting.

Our last pack campout my son and I basically had our own little campout at the pack campout.  We had our own campfire.  We opted out of the pack meal and cooked steaks as part of doing our Cast Iron Chef work.  Instead of going to the pack campfire we sat around our own fire and roasted marshmallows and ate s'mores.  While the rest of the kids were running around playing we worked on lashings. 

I've always heard, "Be the change you want to see", so we are.   But frankly, we're just marking time for the rest of the year until we can get into real Boy Scouts and hopefully leave the goofiness behind.

6 hours ago, Longhaired_Mac said:

But you shouldn't exclude yourself from the camp.

Nah, we're going to do our own thing.  This weekend we have a pack campout.  The pack does not plan any activities for the weekend other than meals and the campfire.  So, my son and I are going to do our own thing.  We are going to plan our own meals, and have our own campfire, and cook our own food, and work on lashing projects, like making a table.  It's going to be cold, so we'll want an evening campfire we can actually sit next to.  For my son and me, sitting around the fire is a time for relaxing and chatting, maybe singing songs.  It's not a vaudeville act.  The other thing that really grinds my gears is when they make it "audience participation" so you are pressured to join in with the theatrics.  And it's not just campfires.  There's hardly a thing that goes by without us "giving a hand" or "big round of applause".  See: Dad Joke. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dad_joke

I'm surprised they didn't go with MT and FT.

I think the acrobatics the organization is doing to try and not say the word "girl" is preposterous.  You can be a girl Scout and not a Girl Scout.

One of the things that irks me so far with my son's Cub Scout experience (I was never in cubs, just Boy Scouts) is this pervasive idea that everything has to be comedic, or slapstick cornball to be "fun".  Even during the BALOO training they emphasized that there should never be a dull moment during the campfire and if there is the leader should jump in with some kind of space-filling cornball thing to keep it "fun".

At the last district campout last weekend my son opted to go back to our campsite and have our own campfire rather than go to the big group campfire.  He finds the cornball nature of the group campfires off-putting, plus he would rather sit next to the fire and tend it himself than have to sit 30 feet away from the campfire and listen to kids incoherently mumble their way through skits.  Plus it was chilly and we wanted to actually sit next to the fire.

When I was in scouting campfire time was about sitting around the camp fire and cooking and shooting the bull with your friends.   Why all the emphasis on the cornball?  Why isn't camping and scoutcraft itself considered fun?

My dad was poor as a kid.  They had to borrow a bucket of water from the neighbors to flush their toilet.  As a scout and made his own pack.  Had a wooden frame.

We are supposed to be getting an REI here next fall.

I think the actual solution to my carrying weight problems is to sneak all my gear into my son's backpack. 

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

If any external frame fans really want their heads to explode, check out the ultralight sub on Reddit and read about Ray Jardine. Base pack weights of 10-15 pounds - or less!

I remember when I was in Scouting that when I first started out I wanted to put every little cool thing in my pack that I could. 

In the end I tried to see how little I could put into my pack.  When you think about it, you are really only going to be gone for a weekend.  About the only thing you absolutely have to bring is water.  Once we took Wilderness Survival, it really changed the way we approached food on hiking trips.  We did not want to bring cooking gear beyond our own personal mess kits.  And even those were sometimes forgone for a simple plastic plate and a fork.  We didn't want to clean it nor carry it.  Not to mention when I was older I had to look after the younger kids.  I remember packing out one trip with my pack on my back and another kid's on my front.

I don't know if I have it in me anymore to be able to go on hiking trips with my son when he gets into Scouting, which will be a shame.  But if I do, it's going to be very spartan packing.  Hard enough to drag my 280 pound, 48-year-old self up a trail.

I found this.  I guess internal frame packs are the thing now.

So I dug my old backpack out of the attic and discovered that the nylon straps are disintegrating.  The frame is aluminum and the bag part is fine.  I can probably make new straps from leather.

I looked online at REI and all the backpacks today look like a giant duffle bag with straps.  Not at all what I grew up with.  How do you attach a bed roll, sleeping bag, and tent to these new kinds of backpacks?

13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

 but if correct any idea what is going on in the South vs the other regions? 

The South, particularly the rural South, is still very "outdoorsy".   My question is, why weren't they (or were they) doing Girl Scouts before?

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Hold the phone, let's confirm what Cub Scouts can do in boats.  Is this no longer accurate?

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2016/05/05/cub-scouts-swimming-and-boating/

Looks like I was mis-informed.

Thanks for all the resources!

Just talked to my wife.  Yes, I am a Girl Scout, but our son is not.  But, he can (and does) go if the Troop Leader fills out the paperwork.

Yes, by one child going to a GS troop and another going to a CS troop we are basically doing what BSA considers "Family Scouting" right now, I suppose.

But, I am also a registered Girl Scout, as is, I think, my son.  Evidently it's up to the leader whether or not males can come on outings - they simply have to sign up for the additional insurance.  I taught lashing at the last campout I went to.  It was amazing - they did kayaking, canoeing, archery, fire building, cooking, and more, and they camp out both Friday and Saturday nights.

Like I said, I'm not sure what advantage the BSA idea of "Family Scouting" provides over just going to your local GS troop, unless, of course, your local GS troop is a dud.

I suspect, as others have said, that this is just a stepping stone to full-blown co-ed Scouting.  I'm OK with that.  As an Eagle Scout, I liked the way it was when I came up through Scouting.  I think there is merit in having a boys-only environment.  When you through girls into the mix, now you've inevitably got this "I've got to be "cool"" vibe going on. 

But, this is the world we live in.  We have now finally entered into an era where girls and women are expected and expecting, rightfully so, to be fully equal with boys and men on whatever terms they can muster.  I want my son and my daughter to have a full outdoors and woodcraft Scouting experience just like I had.  While I think there is merit and value to the boys-only environment, there is also merit and value to the co-ed environment.  Boys and girls can learn how to interact with each other in the upstanding social environment that Scouting provides.

It does seem rather silly, and inconvenient to me for BSA to run separate but equal boy and girl troops.  Even if they are "linked" they are still equally inconvenient to participate in if you have both a boy and girl child.  To me at this point we may as well simply adopt "Family Scouting" to simply mean the actual, entire family.  I think that is inevitable.  Of course, I also think it's inevitable that we will see "Girl sexually assaulted by fellow Scouts on camping trip", or "Boy and girl caught in same tent on Scout campout", at some point thereafter, also.  Brave new world.

23 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

It sounds like your daughter has a great (girl) scout troop.    Sounds like something to stick with.   

Oh there's no fear on that account.  My wife basically pilfered all my old scouting handbooks to use for her Girl Scout troop.  She is very hard core.  The funny thing is (well, not so funny) that we do more activities when we go on Girl Scout trips (my son and myself also) than when we go on most Cub Scout activities.

I'm kind of just marking time until we move up to Boy Scouts next year.

Steve

I've been reading about the "Patrol Method" here.  I always thought that we did the "Patrol Method" back when I was in Scouts, as we had patrols.  But, there were always adults around, too.  It seems the actual "Patrol Method" is extremely hands off.  I'm not sure I completely agree with that.  For example, a few weekends ago I went on a Weblos invite Boy Scout campout with my son.  They were attempting to teach the Weblos how to start a fire, and failing miserably.  Mindful of the "Scout Lead" philosophy, I bit my tongue for as long as I could, but finally went and brought them some tissue paper and said, if you would like some advice, I'd recommend a big wad of tinder and a lot more kindling then you currently have.  Soon a fire was going.

I get the "hands off", self-sufficient mindset, but I also think that the Guidance part of Edge is useful.  I understand the idea of letting kids fail, but I also think that after you watch floundering for a while stepping in with guidance is a good thing, too.  I think, perhaps, ideally the guidance should happen before the need arises to put skills into practice, but guidance should be available at any time. 

So I don't see it as the end of the world or the end of the Patrol Method to have 2 trained adults at Scouting functions.  Having 2 trained adults "supervising" doesn't have to mean micromanaging.  It should just mean observing and keeping things safe.  The biggest problem to me is simply getting more YPT trained adults. 

3 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

I see that there is a certain amount of consolidation, especially for kids who are close enough in age to be in cubs at the same time.  

 The kids will occasionally do things together:  both dens at the same pack meetings and whole-pack activities,  rather than the boy cub den doing pack-wide activities with the pack and the girl Brownie Troop doing service-unit-wide activites with the girl scout service unit.

The adults only need to learn one set of program materials,  one set of safety standards, do  only need one registration,  and one background check,  and somewhat overlapping trainings,  to help with more than one kid.   

(By the way, the camp director of our local Girl Scout camp,  who was a trainer of archery instructors (USA Archery),  used to complain that she could not help her sons' boy scout troop with archery unless she did more training, because she had not completed the BSA archery training.)

Yeah, I considered some of the consolidation, but it seems to me that there isn't enough to make it worthwhile.  Basically the pack meeting and the annual pack campout. 

My wife's big complaint (and mine too) is that as a Girl Scout Troop they were very gung-ho about getting certified trained people since my daughter started around kindergarten and they do way more stuff than Cub Scouts even dream about.  My wife was so annoyed when she thumbed through the Weblos book and got so excited when she saw the pictures of kids in canoes only to discover that Cub Scouts can't actually use canoes like the Girl Scouts do.  We've gotten to the point where we refer to Cub Scouts as Can't Scouts.