Gossmaaf

Thank you for this. I'm an engineer involved in industrial construction (NCEER site safety, OSHA 30, Basic+, 16 years in industry) and I had some on Facebook questioning that I didn't know what I was talking about that standdowns are routine when causes aren't well understood. Glad to know there's others with similar experience stating how Safety Programs are utilized at times. 12 years in Power Plants, 6 in Oil and Gas now, significant field experience during my time in Power personally. It's also good to see that National published a set of reopening protocols and many camps were able to do so efficiently and timely.

I'm an outsider looking in. I've been a Scouter in HOAC for the past 7 years but being I'm not in Mic-o-say and even if I were it would be "honorary" not "hardway" I feel I have some perspective that is more big picture than some. I grew up in Order of the Arrow, was a lodge officer for 6 years, was given the honor of Vigil, and my last year I also went through the Firecrafter program. I say this to validate that I understand Honor Societies in scouting deeper than some. There aren't many that have seen or experienced Firecafter and Mic-o-say and the "bench" of outsiders from HOAC who came here so saw what OA looked like elsewhere is small. My troop traveled in the summer so we saw how OA was in other places, I went to NOAC so I've met other lodges. My council was sliced and diced so i went from Kickapoo to Jaccos Town to Woapink Lodge in the course of 1 year, and saw how they all operated as an incoming Lodge Officer (Vice Chief over District). I joined Firecrafter as part of the council merger, because I was seeking to understand this group being brought to us and to "build bridges". I was not a fan of it at the time as "its not national, we already have OA". So please realize I do try to have an open mind, and do try to reflect deeply on what i see and experience. I just came back from Bartle after being there for a few days, I saw Mic-o-Say ceremonies, saw interactions, and as a being a scouting member for 22 years I had some weird experiences. I really felt "outside" by most there, they gave that look of "where's your claws" that only a non-member can notice. Only a few people (outside of the friends I know from Wood Badge) treated me like I was actually a "real" scouter and the rest kind of talked to me like I was more a visitor than a someone who belongs at camp. It could be my self-esteem issues but I know others have felt the same and there was definitely some cold-shoulder when they saw my OA flap. I wore the OA coups when I was in uniform, not other times, but that got some questions from the scouts as a majority I was around had never even heard of OA (even some Star scouts). Sorting by "first year, second year, etc..." is a bit odd to me, I've seen that elsewhere but it tries to put a Cub Scout blanket over the troop experience. I feel. Having adults lead ceremonies, escort scouts around, and more, it felt very adult-lead everywhere at camp, not youth lead. I see value in Mic-o-say. I think it has some parts of it that are of extremely great value to the scouting experience. It also has weaknesses that people get mad when mentioned. The sad fact here is that if I even point out where OA, Firecrafter, and MOS have strengths and weaknesses, I'll probably have hostile responses. Personally, I wish these groups would meet together, discuss and find a way to create a better Honor Society within Scouting that is more modern, one that brings all their strengths and cancels their individual weaknesses. Now I have to convince my son that he can still get Eagle without MOS because they got him convinced that without it he'll never get past First Class. MOS rank system has great value, their adult leadership weakens them, if they and OA did ceremonies more like Firecrafter they wouldn't have a cultural target on their back. If Firecrafter and MOS were National like OA then it wouldn't limit the scouts to a single camp in the country. If Firecrafter and OA used a more developed rank system like MOS, and the meditation and self reflection that MOS encourages, they would gain. If MOS got the adults out of the ranks and made them Advisors, like Firecrafter and OA they would have strength not weakness. And if there ever was consolidation across the groups, Firecrafter MUST keep the fire-by-friction they do. I know its a pipe dream, but seeing these groups merge effectively/correctly and for the idea of modernization would make them stronger together. But they would have to identify their strengths and understand that parts of them would all disappear. I am still reflecting on my most recent experience though.

Just to follow up to this, we ended up transferring the scouts over to our pack. District eventually agreed (kind of) but we had full support of the District Executive and mixed (acceptance) support from others. We lost a large majority of the scouts due to them hitting the limits of not being what they were looking for, but we kept about 7 of the 15 going. We since piked up 2 more from that school, so there's signs of hope, and 2 transferred to Troops as they ended Cubs. I think everyone waited too long debating vs just merging, but I also think it was too late by the time they even approached us with a Merger discussion. They have integrated into the pack well, and our pack is stronger together with them, but I still have their old colors and equipment in hopes of seeing them restart someday maybe. our District Executive was truly amazing as discussions got serious and he was who pushed the rest the district to realize this was the best option for the scouts. His only concern was the future of recruitment in that school, which we have demonstrated we will meet that expectation. We have started holding half our events at the other school as well so to demonstrate an equal-school concept. Their left-over funds have been transferred into the Pack and we will earmark that money for a "as needed for support or growth of that school". Our District Executive has my respect for his commitment to doing what's in the interest of those scouts before even considering district or other. He just took on that role shortly after the discussions started and he listened to all the parties involved before forming his opinion. Thank you everyone for what was very stressful, not much fun, and was hard to keep focused on the important things during those ~6 months of discussions.

Opening up this very old conversation. For Bugling Merit Badge (requirements current to 4/1/25 and not a April fools joke question): Do all the requirements have to be with a Bugle (or other brass) or can it be any instrument. I've added notes in italics and bold to highlight specific wording. Note this is currently the lowest earned merit badge and we need to find ways to make it more accessible to encourage the art of bugling. Full disclosure, I'm a fan of the bugle. I earned Bugling as a youth on an actual bugle, i own a 1962 chrome BSA Bugle, i play trumpet and also own a cornet. I played trombone, baritone, and flugelhorn as well as mellophone. That said, I'm discouraged that so few scouts want to earn it, and there are others that do but want to stick to their current instrument (like flute). 1. Give a brief history of the bugle. no instrument required, this is a history discussion 2. Do the following: (a) Explain and demonstrate how the bugle makes sound, and explain how the bugle is related to other brass wind instruments. (b) Compose a bugle call for your troop or patrol to signal a common group activity, such as assembling for mealtime or striking a campsite. Play the call that you have composed before your unit or patrol. 3. Sound 10 of the following bugle calls: "First Call," "Reveille," "Assembly," "Mess," "Drill," "Fatigue," "Officers," "Recall," "Church," "Swimming," "Fire," "Retreat," "To the Colors," "Call to Quarters," "Taps." doesn't say a bugle is required. Noting the requirements don't call out any other brass instruments. The key to this requirement is learning the calls and their purpose. 4. Explain when each of the calls in requirement 3 is used no instrument required, discussion only 5. Explain how to care for, clean, and maintain a bugle. need access for a bugle, but doesn't require playing one 6. Serve as bugler in your troop for three months. * * NOTE: A bugle, trumpet, or cornet may be used to meet these requirements. the use of MAY instead of SHALL makes this a recommendation in legal terms, thus any instrument could be used.

So this situation is now even more complex. The Unit Commissioner, COR, and Cubmaster are all wanting to dissolve and merge into our Pack. The smaller unit’s biggest problems are scouts barely engaged and adult leadership other than CM is nonexistent. District went crazy on this though and being concerned about losing a unit but the Unit Comm is concerned that if a merger doesn’t happen quickly then the scouts that are left will just quit. I met with my wood badge mentor who has consulted with others (and I agree) that it’s better to keep scouting for these 6-12 scouts rather than worry about a unit being saved. The district comm is wanting to turn some of our events into recruiting events and he wants to meet with the other packs parents at one of the events and explain if they don’t step up the unit will dissolve. The problem is the parents are there already and don’t need to be reminded. I’m ok with expanding our event but only if the current scouts care. I believe my prime responsibility is to the existing scouts and the program more than recruiting, let growth happen because we are having fun not because of forced growth. The question is do I try and do what District Leadership is wanting or we do what the Unit Leadership wants? There’s a conflict of choices for the same goal.

On my right pocket I wear more excess than I would prefer but the council I'm in tends to drown out those that don't wear Coup Beads (Mic O Say and Order of the Arrow). I used to wear my dongle with Vigil pin but I had way too many people see my uniform and ask why I wasn't in OA (i had a lodge flap as well as the dongle) So I started wearing the mini-sash and that got at least a few realizing I'm a fellow member. I still get some that dont see Coup Beads and think I'm not in but at least some see the "mini-sash" and now recognize I'm a member. I would prefer to wear just my original "dongle" and pin though. I started wearing my Firecrafter Patch as around here any adult leaders not in Mic-O-Say are treated (not always purposely) as somewhat Junior and not as "in". I was the first in about 50 years out of the defunct Wabash Valley Council to earn and join Firecrafter and in reflection have grown to appreciate its place in the Crossroads of America Council so I wear it with some pride now, but also to feel like I'm not as much a "Junior" around here with my 20 years in Scouting but minus any Coups. I've had a few now recognize that I have a Vigil mini-sash "but where are your Coups" and will be resigning to the fact that I will need to build my Coup Cords when I go to Webelos Camp this summer, but I will switch back to my OA Dongle at that point to bring some conformance back to the Uniform Guide.

We as adult leaders should maintain the "neat and tidy" approach to our uniforms but should wear them in full. We have awards as youth, awards as adults, and awards from external parties (like the Community Service Award). Personal memory, and reflecting from my current scouts: Cub Scouts don't really care about what adults have on the adult uniform until closer to AOL. When they understand that what they are about to earn will be on their uniform even as adults they get kind of excited. Older Scouts care a lot about what adults have on their uniform. I remember seeing those "Old Scouters" and how many knots they had, and also how much knowledge they had. We owe it to them and ourselves to wear what we have earned. If a scouter is qualified to wear the interpreter strip, they should wear it, it may mean a lot to a potential scout that doesn't speak the native language of the prospective unit (a scout is helpful and friendly). We should wear the knots we earn, and should wear medals at appropriate times. I haven't worn any of my medals since I became an adult leader but that's also because Cub Scouts don't get as excited until they start to get more "bling" on their own uniform. For Older Scouts, we set a bar and a goal for them to go further and do more than we ever did. People see my Medal of Merit knot and don't recognize it, but they do know the medal when they see it. I brought it to the last District Awards Dinner (didn't' wear it though, probably should have). If we hold the Silver Beaver, Lifesaving Medals, and Eagle in such high regard, we should show equal awe to a new Parent who willingly stepped into their Pack to become an Awarded Den Leader. That one knot means a lot to the growth of our organization, a Scouter has done something that many other parents don't even try to do.

@HashTagScoutsYou aren't by chance from the old Wabash Valley Council are you? You mention the council and lodge mergers and I just remember that being a mess for WVC when the council got split across the Lincoln Trails Council and Crossroads of America Council and Kickapoo merged with Woapink lodge and Jaccos Town Lodge. I was on the Kickapoo officer team at the time and was also in Blackhawk district that split from the other two districts in WVC during the mergers.

Good point on the more than we bargained for and although I want to bring scouting to as many potential or current scouts as I can, my primary responsibility is to the members of my current Pack. @OaklandAndyOn the numbers, that's impressive that you got from from 6 up to 51. I hope we can all learn about how you did that. Our pack has some new leaders starting to step up that will really help us get there so I hope we continue to grow our energy for our scouts to have what we all want to see. They have (other than webelos) 1 den of 1 scout, 2 dens of 3 scouts and a decent Wolf den size. I can see where overlap helps us strengthen our smaller dens, but I agree we don't want to disrupt the energy that our Pack has been getting the past couple years . For the short-term, (discussing with him tomorrow at Roundtable) I'm going to suggest to the other Cubmaster that we just Co-Operate the two packs as a single unit. That is more reversible a decision than actually merging, although a lot of the same difficulties will exist to be fair and balanced. If we do it right it allows for more adult leader coverage and more events/opportunities for the scouts in both Packs to work together. Also, if that school ever sees a resurge of membership they can just roll back to the way they were before co-operating. This also allow us to better isolate issues that may have been causing the other unit problems to spill over to our Pack which, while not 51 scouts, is consistent in den sizes for the most part and is set for some growth in the coming years I hope.

@Eagledadthey are looking to merge as they are smaller and once their current Webelos end after next year the pack will be down to 12 scouts across the other ranks combined. We have had families in the past join our pack due to them looking for a "more active pack". Their Tiger den is their second largest group though, which overlaps well with us as that is our smallest den. Wolves and Bears would potentially be a size issue but that's up to the Den Leaders and Den Chiefs to determine if they have too much to handle. We also have very active Den Chiefs in our Pack from 4 separate Troops so each Den has at least 1 Chief and we were already looking at going to 2 per Den due to the amount of Den chief volunteers we have.

I officially had my first pack meeting as cubmaster yesterday and picked up 1 new scout at the same time, pretty good for my 40th birthday. Today our pack was approached from a neighboring school for possibly merging units with us. Does anyone have any advice, lessons learned, or anything that could help me make sure we do whatever is best for the scouts in both units? I suggested we start by just co-operating the two units as separate entities but together until the parents decide what works best for them. I see the obvious situations, such as making sure we meet at both schools equally so we don't create a "takeover" situation and provide the best access to scouts or potential scouts at both schools. The current adult leadership we would need to evaluate and overlap as well (any advice on that) so we don't have one pack feeling slighted as it comes together. I was (in the fringes) involved in a Council merger when I was an OA officer and saw some ways animosity can be created as that situation was just a lot to collect (they split our council up as part of it across several other councils). I'm going to be doing some reflection on that I'm new as Cubmaster, and I would love to hear others on lessons learned so I can avoid issues that will compromise the experience of Scouting in either Pack as well as if anyone knows where to find a How-To step by step as online searches came up pretty empty. Like pack financials, taxes, Chartering Org discussions, etc...

There is almost continual debate over how many knots someone should wear, not wear, or even at all. As a Scouter who was in as a youth, I will say that to younger scouts it matters less, but to older scouts they see those knots as something they can obtain themselves someday. It helps pull aging out scouts to become scouters to continue service to our organization. That said, I wonder if the uniform would be slightly less cluttered (for some with excessive knots) as well as ability to tailor for the needs if scouting moved back to the Ribbon Bar concept like Exploring currently does, or as Scouters did from the 20's to about the 50's. I get that having them can make the uniform more militaristic and less "scout-ish" but it is hard for those with knots as a youth that were hard earned, and knots as an adult (shows you are a resource for others with experience in specific roles) if the bars would clean up the uniform. There is the added problem as well for those that get multiple times of the same award, like Den Leader. Now that National no longer sells the knot devices for several years. I myself have 6 knots and I already see how getting anymore would add clutter, but do I take off the Den leader Award (great memories with each of my kids), do I take off the Medal of Merit/Eagle/etc... or do I have to move my World Crest up to get it to fit correctly. If i get the opportunity for a Cubmaster Key or Unit Award of Merit my 3rd row will be almost filled out already, and I'm just started in my time as an Adult Leader (only been doing that for 8 consecutive years, 4 with my own kids). Playing with the concept somewhat is some ideas i was seeing, looking to the base medals for the appearance capture. Instead of a separate Ranger Bar devices with (R, T, and Q) could be added to the Venturing Summit Bar to indicate Ranger, Quest, Truth Medals with Summit, again decluttering the uniform but still recognizing skills and honors.