vumbi

Too late...I wandered in there against warnings and was surprised by what I saw. Wondered if I was in the right forum. But...it's good to know people's true feelings on certain issues.

My condolences. The real measure of your character will be never to return to it now that you are aware of the vile effluent that it harbors. I hope you can resist.

Ditto Qwazse. You're going to have to work your way through this. Patience, patience.

This thread might also get shuffled into the cesspool called Issues and Politics. Nevertheless I will respond by observing that this and other units I know of would lose a lot of their leadership, many of whom I consider to be good friends and superior to most of the men. It would hurt.

To those who are responding to this thread, please don't give the moderators an excuse to move it. Thanks.

Welcome to the forums. You can learn a lot here. I'm not new to scouting but I haven't posted in the forums until recently. You can get some really good advice here but you need to weigh all of it against your own thoughts. I've benefitted greatly from the forum on Cub Scouting, Advancement, and the top one on general program matters.

But please don't waste your mind or your time on the Issues and Politics forum. It has nothing to offer to you or to scouting.

...  Everyone knows councils are not good at paperwork and an audit of their records would find a whole bunch of problems. So if they are going to require annual YPT they better have a tracking method and a good way to audit and back up everything, otherwise their requirement is not worth the paper they lost it on.

And....maybe they're just 'saying' the YPT is required. As it is, with all that error, it's practically the honor system. It would be interesting to know how many leaders are dropped for failing to meet this requirement.

If the BSA requires us to take it every two years, and a council requires it every year, and there's no administrative tool provided to prove if someone has taken the training, how will anyone know if there's a violation? Also, what would a council do if they found a violation since we are chartered by national and they only require every two years? Anyone know?

See, this makes sense if you take it a couple of steps farther. First, the council doesn't have a good way of tracking it because whether or not you actually complete YPT isn't all that important. Second, and related to the first thing, the council is mostly engaged in a CYA exercise and if on paper they can show that they require YPT every year, it looks good. And they have an 'out' if someone does something and there's a violation without the training. Viewed in light of those two potential factors, plus the mentioned increases of red tape and paperwork, it all begins to make sense.

Not to worry if anything gets sent to I&P to die it's gonna be either you or me.  

Probably. That forum is a cesspool.

I apologize for the hijack. Please don't send this thread to die over in Issues and Politics.

At one time a while back, rabbits, hares, pikas, etc. were considered to be part of Rodentia. But that has changed. Now they are in the order Lagomorpha. The most obvious differences are that rodents have two incisors while lagomorphs have four. Also, rodents only have enamel on the front side of their incisors while lagomorphs have enamel on both sides. It's not a big deal but I thought someone might want to know. Last fall, when serving some rabbit stew, someone objected, saying that they "don't eat rodents" to which I replied, "No problem" and handed them the bowl.

However, 6 months to a year later, he visited the area and the nutria ate up everything. All that remained were the metal nutria guards built to USFS specs that were suppose to protect the saplings.

Slightly off topic but I have to ask: I know we feed a lot of nutria to the alligators but have you tried eating a nutria? I'm curious as to how they taste.

Stosh, I hope someone in the city was ashamed of their inaction.

Edit: Nevermind, here's a link: http://boingboing.net/2013/04/29/meat-from-a-20-kb-swamp-rat-t.html

Time to head over to New Iberia to try some.....

After kayaking on lakes and a little in the marine environment, I gave it a try and decided to stick with kayaking. I like the ability to pack gear and sit low. Far better control and efficiency of transfer of power from body to paddle to water. Paddleboarding is a little like trying to surfboard without waves. I just didn't think it was any fun at all.

I also have acquaintances who pole canoes down rivers. I don't like to do that either, I'd rather sit braced for control.

In case any 'moderators' are thinking about moving this to Issues and Politics, I refer to this quote from Stosh:

"I&P is a little like the Dead Letter department of the US Post Office.  It's basically the kiss of death for the thread for a lot of people."

Amen to that. Putting a topic thread in Issues and Politics is not only the kiss of death as far as I'm concerned, it renders all previous discussion before the move a waste of time. As an alternative, you could, you know, actually 'moderate'.

As for STEM scouting, I am not all that concerned about keeping it separate or mingling it into the current program. I AM, however, skeptical of the ability of BSA to provide a STEM program in any way that doesn't focus on the TE while mostly ignoring S and perhaps M as well. I am not the least bit impressed with what I have seen so far.

To me fundraising falls into two categories: for the unit and the boys in the unit, and then there is fundraising for the council (perhaps with a percentage for the unit). Both categories consume time that could be devoted to, you know, like, scouting. But at least the first category entirely benefits the unit.

Anyway, trying to stick with the title of this topic, the alternative to fundraising, to me, is to pay the full cost of whatever activity we do; outings, high adventure, awards, camporees, summer camp...it doesn't matter...and if we can't afford it, we don't do it. It's that simple.

This approach has some risks. For one, a family might not be able to afford an activity...and because of that I'm somewhat sympathetic to unit fundraising. Not enthusiastic, just somewhat sympathetic.

As for things beyond the unit, after what I observed in that list of salaries that someone posted a while back, I am probably never going to be enthused about fundraising at that level. I wouldn't attempt to stop some person with more money than sense from donating to the national organization but I would probably discourage engaging the boys in the unit to waste time for that level of fundraising...as opposed to going on another outing of some kind.

As for summer camp, etc., I am always in favor of setting the fees for those things in a way that reflects the actual costs of providing them. No supplements, no subsidies, no 'welfare'. I suspect that when families begin to pay the real cost of camp, that is when they will demand excellence from 'camp' or else the unit might find that excellence in 'camping' on their own, which to me is an excellent and usually superior option.

I guess that's most of what I think about an alternative to fundraising.

For many years, I've been more than happy to write a check to avoid peddling stale/overpriced candy/popcorn/cookies, smelly candles and other junk that no one really wants.

 

If they need help setting up the school carnival, hauling gear for the troop, or serving as a timer at the swim meet, sure, no problem.   Selling stuff?   No.  I will not impose on family, coworkers and neighbors to buy rubbish to support my kid.

I agree completely. Plus the boys know that what they're 'selling' is way overpriced and this kind of activity sets an example of unreasonable expectation.

This is one of the creepiest threads I have ever read.

Seems like another good reason not to wait until the final months at age 17.

Most COs around here have dropped those vans long ago and gone with real buses. If we can't get the church bus for an outing we just pool it.

I'm not gonna try and discourage you from looking at controversial forums, but do let your folks know what you're reading. Their opinions should matter to you most.

 

In four years someone should be handing you a voter's registration and asking you to run our country. So, start reading up no to be prepared for that day!

There is only one truly controversial forum: Issues and Politics. It is an embarrassment to the scout spirit and brings out the worst of those who post there. If you think four years of wasting time reading that forum in some way contributes to the preparation of a young person to run our country then I'm sorry for you, the young man, and our country.

Zachary, my advice is for you to make your own decisions honestly and to be true to yourself. You won't regret it.

If you will post a mailing address for the advancement chair, I'll be glad to donate a couple of hammers...as a token of his stupidity. I suspect he might get a few, as well, from others reading this forum.

Yes, the process seems a little confusing the first time you read the workbook instructions. But then, adults go to work on their labyrinthine interpretations and it gets out of hand quickly.

Science does not require expensive technologies. Science is a way to understand observable phenomena. It can be done with a pair of binoculars or a magnifying glass or even just a notebook and the ability make careful observations and to write and do calculations. Science requires thought and critical thinking. STEM, in the style of BSA, might just take the appearance of whatever tech company is interested in hawking their wares. If that STEM-mobile I've heard of is any indication of what BSA might promote as STEM then it probably ought to be called sTEM with emphasis on the technology and engineering. Math would merely be the necessary evil that accompanies the 'E'.

I am skeptical about a STEM program that is put together at the will of the likes of people at the Irving office.

Welcome to the forums, Zachary. There is plenty to learn and among these forums there are plenty of 'old hands' who have plenty of knowledge on how to do things. Because you are still young I ask a few things of you:

1) Please recognize that some of those things that 'old hands' think they know are not necessarily correct. Use your mind and your own judgment, and don't be afraid to ask questions.

2) Try to ignore the occasional occurrence when some of the forum members are rude to each other. The scout law applies to everyone. Even adults can backslide on occasion. That is no excuse for others to do the same.

3) Please, please, never go into the Issues and Politics Forum. It is full of things that have little relevance to scouting and many, many bad examples of adults behaving badly. It is weakly moderated so there are things said and posted that have, in my opinion, no place in scouting much less in the mind of a young person who might view them. Frankly that forum is an embarrassment. Don't waste your time with that forum or with the folks who waste their time posting there. You'll be a better person for it.

And again, welcome to the 'other' forums. They can be both informative and fun.

Very true.

 

As you and Joe Bob pointed out, it's become apparent that the BSA is a pyramid scheme.   Plus, based on Calico's last post, National is slowly divesting the outdoor competency for indoor stuff--because that's where society is going. 

 

Well, those who still like the outdoors will have it all to themselves!    Good news for the troops that are outdoor oriented and self sufficient.  

YES! All to ourselves! OK, maybe with a few others but fewer and fewer.

But here's my question: If BSA is a pyramid scheme, why bother wasting time criticising their stupid decisions when it's clear those decisions are mostly designed in the first place to preserve the pyramid?

To me the better approach would be to treat them like the parasites that they are, with a treatment that might even rid us of those parasites. Starve them. Do not support FOS, other fundraisers for the national organization. Devote all resources to local units. Local control, local choice, local impact, local responsibility. If we create a situation that cannot possibly support those obscene salaries then the parasites will seek other hosts or just go away.

Once rid of those things, there will be available two related opportunities:

1) to restructure the system in a way that really IS for the boys, and

2) attract system leaders whose motivation is NOT money (because of the lower salaries) but instead are motivated by the desire to support and improve the program for the local units and the boys. Parasites from outside of scouting, moreover, will note the salary structure and continue to turn to other hosts.

BSA, with their six figure leaders, *is* a group of money grubbing parasites. If they're not please offer evidence to the contrary.

LOL, yep that just about sums it up.

In many locations it's done at a college or university in multiple lab settings with real research equipment and around here the young people flock to it by the busloads from all over the state. Like was mentioned earlier, if the program is done right.......

Leadership does indeed make a difference. However, when the parents are in STEM careers themselves, they tend to have a certain bias toward STEM...and they sometimes combine that bias with a certain air of superiority that is nearly impossible to penetrate. So I just focus on the ones who really want to be part of a scouting program. No sweat.