BS-87

packsaddle - Are you just baiting "birthers" to disprove them with the facts you have, or did you post this thread with the intention of legitimate debate?

Beavah - That's not fair, you already know I'm not a birther. I know Hawaii is US Soil and our POTUS is a citizen born in America. What we all know is that he's not a "natural born" citizen in the original sense of the term under English Common Law. The only question here is whether or not the 14th Amendment nullifies the distinction between "native born" and "natural born"

To Merlyn and Beavah A military base constitutes US soil. If that's the biggest argument you can find against my points, I'm afraid to say my concerns are valid. Also, at that point in time when McCain was born, the Panama Canal Zone was a US holding.(This message has been edited by BS-87)

I'm not a "birther" because I believe our POTUS was born in Honolulu. I do question his eligibility though. This is because he is a "native born citizen" and not a "natural born citizen" as the Constitution requires for the Presidency. The difference is that a "native born citizen" only has to be born on American soil. A "natural born citizen" was defined in the Laws of Nations (which our Founding Fathers referenced often in writing our official federal documents like the Constitution) as someone who is born on the nation's soil to parents who are both citizens of that nation with no other allegiances. Obama's father was a British subject, thus making Obama a "native born" but not a "natural born" citizen. I cannot claim to know the intent of our Founding Fathers, but I'd assume they wished for future Presidents to be born of and raised by two citizen parents with no other foreign loyalties. The argument exists that the 14th amendment to the Constitution makes the "native born" and "natural born" citizenships synonymous, and such is the current court ruling. Our Supreme Court could rule against this previous ruling though. I do think pursuing such a ruling to unseat our President is folly and impossible now. However, this should have been addressed and ruled upon when he was a primary candidate.

83Eagle - Which District you with? I grew up in Wolf River District, which is now in Gathering Waters

Oak Tree - Playing fast and loose with YP guidelines may not indicate abuse in scouting scenarios, but it definitely is a characteristic of an abuser. It's like dropping a frog in a pot of boiling water, he'll jump out. But put the frog in cold water and slowly heat it to a boil and he'll remain in until his demise.

Very right BP! I'm waiting for the day I watch Obama's concession speech, and then the feed is switched to the Republican room in celebration as Trump steps up to the podium and yells "Barack Obama, You're Fired!"

Ha! Apparently I'm psychic by 1 minute and 51 seconds...

OGE has it right. You do not take YP issues lightly. If it's minor, your SE will almost have a "and you bothered calling me why now?" tone when you let him know, but at least you've followed the protocol in place to protect boys. The most trustworthy of men in the most innocent of circumstances can commit the most atrocious of evils. It's better to have there be no question rather than a 90% sure there's no problem.

It should be reported to the SE. Your SE will ask if this has happened before. If it's not a common thing, or it's a fluke solved by a reminder, he'll probably say not to make a huge deal of it, as that could startle the scout. If you call again in a few months saying something similar happened again, the SE will probably be sending that SM a letter, and you will be looking for a new SM.

Doc Meyer - That's going a little too far. This isn't a forum for infighting. This whole thread should be in Council Relations anyway...

From Public Policy Polling: Trump's broken the perpetual gridlock we've found at the top of the Republican field, getting 26% to 17% for Mike Huckabee, 15% for Romney, 11% for Newt Gingrich, 8% for Sarah Palin, 5% for Ron Paul, and 4% for Michele Bachmann and Tim Pawlenty. The Official Frontrunners Donald Trump - 26% - personally funded Mike Huckabee - 17% - far behind on fundraising Mitt Romney - 15% - 3rd in fundraising and personally funded Newt Gingrich - 11% - fundraising unknown End Top Tier/ Top 4 Sarah Palin - 8% - fundraising unknown Ron Paul - 5% - 1st in 2011 Q1 fundraising Tim Pawlenty - 4% - fundraising unknown (but his staff pickups are notable and discredit a possible Huckabee run) Michele Bachmann - 4% - 2nd in 2011 Q1 fundraising (and has also made some great staff pickups) End Dark Horses Fringe Candidates: Herman Cain, Rick Santorum, other nameless chanceless folk

Hey there! What council do you hail from? (being a product of Wisconsin though I may now be transplanted)

Basement, I know you're a great volunteer because I've seen many Cubmasters and Scoutmasters (far more Scoutmasters actually) just like you. I truly understand your opinions, as they were the opinions of my Unit's leaders when I was a boy. However, having had the opportunity to serve at the District level, we find there are definitely mal-contents out there. There has to be some reason your District and Council do what they do. I just want you to know they're out there for the good of boys, just like you are, it's just that you have differing opinions on how to do it than them. Talk to them and try to see their side of the story. My guess is that your District isn't a bad district, they're probably just avoiding you because someone in the past made you sour towards the whole idea of the district and council. And now that they're in these positions, they were told you hate them for no good reason, and so are reluctant to extend the olive branch or risk you spoiling other units' opinions of them. There has to be a rational explanation to the way events are playing out. Maybe your Cub Events lack volunteer leadership to run (and even if you offered to help they wouldn't want it, getting back to the sour thing) Maybe it's been impossible for them to budget an event to be self-sustaining, and so the SE put a moratorium on them. For whatever reason, there is a problem in your council and district. I can guarantee the problem is not avarice, or hubris, or sloth; it's probably just a lot of lack of information. Here's to hoping you can work this out with a warm smile and helping hand

KC9DDI and Doc Meyer - Well said

It sounds like you have a highly operational District and Council! Congratulations, your professional staff has achieved the ultimate goal of putting power in the hands of the volunteers! Some districts and councils do start failing though, and so professionals need to step in all over the place, stretching themselves too thin and ultimately this hurts the program all around. There is so much organization that you don't see, and should never have to see if the professionals are doing their job right. Your district and council should be highly commended, because they've achieved success. They are able to swim like a swan. Above water you see that they're floating along without a care and are a rare sight to you. However, I guarantee you that under the water their feet are still gnashing about violently, such is the illusory grace of the swan.

Basementdweller - Your district wants to have a better relationship with your unit. Your council wants to have a better relationship with your unit. You're an experienced scouter, and we're all in this for the same thing! It's not like your DE and SE think this is a get rich quick scheme. We are ONE BSA. You are your district, your council, and national because you are a member. You have the opportunity to be an agent of change if things aren't going as you see fit. Please embrace the organization instead of playing victim.

> Ask for a copy. There are no secrets in scouting. Your council should have nothing to be ashamed of, and would gladly give you a copy. If they refuse... please please please contact their Area Director.

Also, on a mod note. Can this be moved to Council Relations?

To 83Eagle, Oak Tree, etc... In my district, the DE does many presentations, but in most of them the Unit Leader and/or Committee Chair will do the presentation. This is because those leaders understand more than anyone else the support they receive from the district and council, as it's relevant to them. A DE may know what they offer in general, but it takes someone committed to that Unit to really tell them what makes this support important, and which support/programs they couldn't function without. It's unfortunate your council has been a mess for 30 years, there's a unit in our District that holds a 30 year old grudge, and so will not even come to Roundtable. The fact is that professional staff rotates to make making amends all the easier. At the next opportunity, pitch your vision to that professional staff and sell yourself as an agent of change. If you don't volunteer to affect positive change, who is going to?

@Abel Magwitch It's thinking like that which leads to FoS support fading, council employees getting laid off, Districts merging, Councils merging, less support from professionals to district leadership, less support from district leadership to commissioners, committee members, and unit leaders, less support from those groups to units in general, and then finally less support from units to the boys in their community. When more people are involved in the process, more gets done and a better program exists. More people are also more expensive. Council get run into the red for that reason, because sometimes you just cannot do more with less. Stewardship, frugality, and cutbacks can only go so far before it starts really harming the program. Out of every 100 Units, 90 would fail if the District and Council and National were not there as a resource and support.

With no intention to be offensive to those of you who are complaining about FoS, do you not understand that Scouting exists outside your unit? Your unit focus is great, that's exactly where 99% of your time and thoughts need to be. But this is a nationwide movement. Where you succeed, others are failing, and it's because they don't have the resources to make their program successful. They lack membership, money, and manpower, and you do not. If the prices increase for everybody, we lose membership and create a financial barrier to joining. That is the fallacy of taxation. If you increase that rate of taxation high enough, you actually start losing revenue instead of increasing it due to evasion and fraud. FoS represents the alternative to taxation, and that is charity. For those who are able, make what you love accessible to as many boys as possible. For those who are not as able, make a token pledge to show your support. A $1000 check from someone who makes $200k may not mean as much to a presenter as a $10 pledge from someone who makes

Your DD and possibly the professional staff in your council as a whole may be "trained" but they probably just don't know how to convey that they're people too who require a salary that's modest, but not insulting to their talent. The council's outreach programs is something many parents and leaders don't understand. Council's actually hire people part-time to serve hard-to-serve groups and schools. Your community is blessed to have you as a leader and a Pack that can sustain itself, but that's because there's a history of it. In some communities, it's hard to establish that precedent, and so more drastic measures are needed to ensure every boy at least has the opportunity to be a scout. The presenters should be focusing on exactly what you say. The council receives limited to no United Way support. Camping programs are often run at a loss (I know ours is at over $100,000 loss each year) even accounting for camping fees. The only reason Camping program can be offered at the price it is instead of twice as much is because our boys sell a lot of popcorn, and we have fantastic supporters, or Friends of Scouting. Without those friends who are willing to support our program, the program would become very expensive, and not every boy would be able to have the opportunity to be a scout.

If a council has a lot of "Friends", they can afford to provide more and better programming. When the perception arises that the professional staff is going out and doing presentations to beg for their salary, FoS is an abomination instead of the goodwill it should be. Think of it this way. Do you work for free? Does your boss work for free? The fact of the matter is you are a customer of a strong, historical national program for your son, and that program is not free to run. Unlike when you buy gas or get your carpet cleaned, you get to decide how much this program for your boy (which is far more valuable than the other two) is worth to you. Where do your heart and your wallet meet? How much would you feel comfortable paying for a program that's going to make your son a respectable man? Donate that much.

The frontrunners as of 4/8/11: Mitt Romney - because he has been since day one, but is losing ground fast Michelle Bachmann - Tea Party favorite and 2nd in 1Q fundraising Donald Trump - Recently placed second in a poll of potential candidates Mike Huckabee - has been top-tier since day one, and is tied with The Donald for second in polling Ron Paul - Libertarian favorite and 1st in 1Q fundraising Second Tier Candidates as of 4/8/11: Sarah Palin, Tim Pawlenty, Newt Gingrich, Herman Cain, Rick Santorum, Rand Paul