ianwilkins

 

You *did* bring us the Beatles, Dr. Who, Harry Potter, Monty Python, the Young Ones, Yes Minister, Downton Abbey, the Who and (proper) football.

 

But apart from all that...what did the British ever do for us?

Ah, well, I do try and use a pint measurement on a regular basis.

Ian mentioned that the police in all of England shot and killed only 3 criminals.  So that must mean that a few of them have guns.   

 

Here's an interesting statistic, how many would be alive today had they been armed?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

Which doesn't need to be broken down by year.

Here's the list for the USA...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

It's all unanswerables and imponderables though, the what ifs. I mean, I could say...how many of those would still be alive if hardly anyone had a gun? But that might start an argument, so I won't. I do worry, and I do think it's changing a bit in the UK, or maybe it's the media coverage, that things are slowly escalating, that as more crims have guns, more police are armed, so more crims get guns, so more police are armed.

And yes, indeed, the image of the british bobby with his (or her) trusty truncheon is a little out of date. I have a friend that who worked for the police, and was armed, he had good reason. You go some places in London and it's quite right that the police you see are proper tooled up. Airports, Downing Street. They're the main two I can think of.

I blame the English. Had they not oppressed us for all those decades back in the 18th Century, we would not feel the need to carry weapons. Clearly it's their fault.   

Then I shall have to be terribly British and apologise unreservedly for anything and everything that anyone may think we may have done. 

Ian

I'm thinking that in a large shopping mall with an active shooter, if I have to draw my gun, it is comforting to note there may be a handful of other armed conceal carry "gun-nuts" out there to help and I don't have to worry about the unarmed bobbies coming to my rescue getting there on time.  We live in two different worlds. 

Aaah, you see, that example would be a very very unlikely occurrence, so the follow on logic is based on a false premise. I live close enough to London to see their local news, and I can see that maybe not everything is reported, but generally there's some gang violence, sadly teenage males seem to stab each other on a not infrequent basis, but the last jewellery heist I saw reported it was machete's and the sledge hammers and baseball bats used to get into the cabinets. And still some bystander tried to pull one of them off his moped as he rode away (he backed off when the perp started waving a machete about, fair enough). 

Lies, damn lies, and statistics... in the whole of the UK, the police shot and killed three people last year, one in 2014. Firearm related death rate by homicide is 0.06 per 100,000 people. In the USA it's 3.55. If it's any consolation, Honduras is 66.64. So I think it's ok unarmed bobbies coming to the rescue in the shopping centre, as the perp would also be unarmed. 

Yes, definitely different worlds.

To vaguely scout relate it, we had some Portuguese come over the other year, and they loved air rifle shooting (.177 I think) as they can't do it in Portugal...but they've all done shotgun shooting, as that's the more "normal" over there. We could also do shotgun shooting, but it's expensive. I have been to a local rifle club and shot some of the members shotguns, and their range of historic weapons, mostly rifles, but also a revolver, which was only legal as it was black powder, so you had to put a cap in, load a measure of black powder, add a ball bearing, and cap it off with grease... x 6. Hardly automatic. Insanely loud and an impressive cloud of smoke though. Good fun!

Ian

This is why we carry in the back country. (some what grusome)

 

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000riiDdkWCu0w/s/650/520/bear-attack.jpg

Somewhat!?! Ewwwww!

Ian

From across the pond, I've read this thread with bemusement and incredulity*, and you're all making the USA sound very dangerous!  I'm not judging, if you consider carrying a gun necessary, you're the best judge of that not me.

* But that's only because I'm looking at it from this end, in a country where handguns are illegal, the police don't routinely carry, and the only bears are in zoos. Definitely not trying to start an argument!

Ian

Did all his scouts have the advanced chemistry* merit badge?

* Excuse the UK boy not knowing if this is a real merit badge or not.

My boys that are about to cross over got me a scouting campaign hat as a thank you.  I am so grateful for it, what a nice gesture.  Are there rules on the etiquette for wearing it?

Make sure you doff it if you meet a lady in the street.

If you want another ball park, UK price for the Japan Jamboree was £3000, or $4400. That included transport. I would guess then that the fee component was around £1500-2000. So $2200-$3000.

And, just a small point...

The Who:  Boy Scouts from All over the World

Ask your kids how they'd feel if adults wouldn't let them use squirt guns, water balloons, drive go carts, use certain kinds of knives, only climb using certain techniques and gear, only use certain tools, etc, then talk to me.

 

I don't need to ask. I know the answer. I feel your pain! We're not short of the odd weird and restrictive practice in the UK, though nothing to that scale, and I know I've got more risk adverse over time. I also worry that it's now so hard to get trained and approved for activities like climbing and caving that adventurous activities will just be bought in in the future, but that's all subjects for another thread....

Good work CambridgeSkip!

Ian

Nevertheless, it betrays a decade of ignorance propagated by organizational deceit when you have volunteer and professional scouters who say, "Look to Venturing's vibrant growth as an example of the success we can have with a co-Ed program." (My paraphrase of several statements from different folks over the years.)

Yes, it's not rocket science (it's much more nuanced than that but anyway...) do stuff the kids want to do at a price the parents can afford. All the groups I know that thrive it's because of enthusiastic leadership and a good programme. 

Moving to England...they get to use Super Soakers.

Shakes head in disbelief. Again. 

Let's clear up one assumption. There's a lot of marketing speak about the venturing program. Folks often cite the Venturing program as an example of a growth as a result of being open to girls. However that division is the most rapidly shrinking (down to 158k in 2014 from 192k in the previous year). If retaining members is any guide, it seems that our unisex divisions are the ones to follow.

Wow! That's some drop! I'd be cautious about sticking a flag on it and saying there's a definitive reason for it though. Presumably while it was growing it was mixed too? Otherwise I'm guessing the marketing wonks wouldn't be shouting about it. But I guess "why Venturing is shrinking" is a topic for another thread.

Ian

OH. No! Our councils wouldn't notice us taking part in your event.

If we were to host such an event, we might expect a knock at our door.

It would be, for example, your district or county asking for a piece of your pie!

My local district/county could try! I'm always open to a full and frank conversation 

 

I'll let folks who've experienced this first-hand share links to details. In general ...

• First of all, there's paperwork (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34427.pdf).
• Councils take interest in successful events design for participants from outside the units' community.
• They "offer" to supply a professional for your event. (Sometime this is actually quite good. Other times, meh.)
• They professional will strongly suggest a portion of the proceeds to go back to council.
• Therefore, he/she will expect expect you to raise the fee sufficiently to meet that earnings target.

 

Blimey! Interesting stuff! I'd still argue you, as a participant, is only taking part and paying an entry fee. It's me over in the UK that's doing fundraising. Still, if they want to pay for me to come and meet a "professional", I'm sure I could pop over, business class of course!

In other news, we went bowling last night, 46 of us, had a great time!   Not sure we'll be trouble the top of the leaderboard, but hey, it's not what it's about.

Ian

I had a long post the other day, but lost it in the troubles, so, in short, I volunteer, so all the money less costs go to my explorer group. Costs are web hosting, and for those that buy badges, postage and packing, I charge zero for my time.

It's probably benefitted around 200 people since it started, from the website...

We've used the money raised so far to support International trips to Portugal, and for some Portuguese Explorers to visit us, to help our Farnham Explorers who have been selected for the World Scout Jamboree, and as a hardship fund, as well as general unit activities.

• Thirdly, fundraising from scouting activities on this side of the pond draws the attention of our councils, and where we are told the checks should go can get "interesting."

​

Really? Paying to take part in an event would draw attention? Tell me more...

Hi folks,

I run a(n unofficial) competition to find the best ten pin bowlers in scouting! It's for any section, from any country. The basic premise is, you enter, go bowling with your cubs or scout or whatever, and enter your scores on the website. Then when the competition ends, we add up all the scores, and see who has won! The competition is run by age group/section, so there's a separate competition for cubs, scouts, and adults can join in too!

Previous years we've had entries from all over the world, including Australia, Austria, Canada, Slovenia, Spain, Germany, and the UK. It would be good to add the USA to the mix. 

There's fun/blanket badges available if you want. There's a small fee to enter too - $8 for as many teams as you want for your section/group.

More details on our website http://www.jambowlree.org

Or that facebook https://www.facebook.com/Jambowlree/

Or follow us on twitter @jambowlree

Yours in Scouting,

Ian

While we're on an international tip, the south africans have a thing called a potjie (pron. pot-chee), basically looks like a more witches cauldron type of dutch oven, with longer legs. Of course, much of south africa was invaded by the dutch as well as the english*, so it ties up they'd have something very similar, same source. I assume the english at the time thought lids were for weirdos.

* gross simplification, no offence meant.

Just putting the DO on the fire is nothing more than frying with a cover.  Not a problem if that's all one is doing.  However, the DO is intended to be an oven with heat sources both on top and bottom.  Too much neat on the bottom burns on the food, no heat on the top does't brown the top, 

Seems fair. When I'm doing dinner, the DO is suspended over the fire, and tends to be cooking something pretty wet, so it's basically just a saucepan that's thick and heavy. That said, there were some pretty good pineapple upsidedown cakes made at summer camp last year, someone else was in charge, I think there was a spacer put on the bottom of the DO to lift a dish containing the upsidedown cake mix off the bottom. Then briquettes placed on top as you say. I think I was doing something else at the time. I had some of the results though. Very nice!

Anyway, over this side of the pond we consider roast dinner to be typically british, at least I do, so if you had a campfire oven, maybe that's an option. Of course, another typically british meal would be a curry.

Well for a Dutch oven you often need as much heat on the top as you do on the bottom so thats why you put some coals on top.

Yeah, just seems very specific. I could understand it with the cobbler, as you had to brown the top.

Another view from the UK here...

As it happens, we camped at the weekend, and a meat and veg in foil was done.

Breakfasts we try and do a full english most mornings, fried bacon, sausage, egg, tomato, and cooked baked beans, maybe some black pudding. It's always a bit tricky with lots of people as it's almost all fried, and that takes up lots of space, some sometimes it's scrambled eggs instead.

Over the last few years we've got into dutch oven cooking more and more. We do one called South African Chicken Stew, no idea how authentically south african it is, as it's spiced with "cajun" spice, but anyway, always goes down well, as well as a chicken/chorizo in tomato thing we made that didn't have a recipe.

"raw biscuit dough from a can?"

I'm not sure we even have such a thing.

We did have a phase of making flatbreads over fires, making the dough, and cooking it on a flat bit of steel (or frying pan) over the fire.

Oh, pitta pocket pizzas, look like a car crash, usually taste great.

"Have your Scouts ever caught fish, then ate them that night for dinner?"

Yes, like CambridgeSkip says, sea fishing, over here, most lakes are small, and you go to all the trouble of catching a fish, then have to put it back, and if you did eat it, they'd probably taste like the bottom of a pond, not sure about rivers, fishing not my bag. Anyway, we did go sea fishing at summer camp a few years back, and caught enough fish for not just us, but all our neighbours too. We have a problem with American Signal Crayfish, escaped from captivity, and are spreading across the country rapidly, killing all the native species of crayfish...oversized, oversexed, and over here! Anyway, last year we camped at a local site with a river, put a trap out, and caught some, which you aren't legally allowed to put back, so we had to eat them

Just looked at last summer camps menu...

Gammon, veg, jacket potatoes

Minced beef cobbler

Spicy chicken

Fish & Chips (bought)

Beef Stroganoff and rice

Chicken Fajitas

It's all done from ingredients rather than pre-prepared stuff.

And yes, at some point, marshmallows have to be cooked on the fire.

Last week we had a curry night, but that was on gas in the hut, then again, no reason you couldn't do that on the fire in a dutch oven.

The main problem we have in the UK is you look on the internet for dutch oven recipes, and so it's all a cup of this, and a cup of that, whereas we tend to use weights and volumes. On the other hand, you can buy your american cup measures over here, and I guess on camp it might be easier, we certainly don't take scales, though we might have a measuring jug, so things can be a bit vague at times. And it's probably a personal thing, but all this "8 briquettes on the bottom, 12 on top" business? Stick it on the fire! stop mucking about!

Ian

@@ianwilkins, thanks for pointing out how much the BSA micromanages the simplest decisions a leader can make!

We would do well to understand that some of our Youth Protection stipulations are based purely on image and not substance.

Well, I've been told I'm wrong, that boys and girls sharing is against the rules, it is not true (in the UK). Or even if it's not against the rules, that I shouldn't do it anyway. I've had parents reckon there'll be mass orgies as soon as our back is turned, If memory serves I think I managed to bite my tongue and didn't say this said more about them and their opinion of their child than anything else.

On a practical level, on a weekend camp, we've had them in big tents, mixed up, and they either change in the toilets, or in sleeping bags, or tell all the boys to get out while they change, and vice versa. It gets sorted practically anyway.

I like to treat my explorers as if they are a bunch of friends, it seems to work mostly. After all, a scout is morally straight right? And "trustworthy, ...courteous...clean"  so how would sharing a tent be a problem?

You are right though, image is still important, the wrong parent gets the wrong end of the stick, and the wrong image can be portrayed, the jungle drums take over, and you've got a situation on your hands.

As a final point, it's not so different to a single sex provision, after all, you could have a single sex couple in your unit.

Of course, I'm inured to the whole thing, I've been in mixed scouting since aged 15, and that was some time ago.

@@ianwilkinsBut ... To clarify the adventure ... "Temps approaching zero" that would be centigrade, right?

Zero Fahrenheit, I tend not to worry about youth sleeping because things are as dry as they are cold.

Sorry, yes, forgetting the units differ, 0 centigrade, 32 Fahrenheit. [looks up what 0F is...-18C] It would be a rare event to get down to zero F if you weren't in the wilds of Scotland or up on the Yorkshire Moors.

Talking to explorer leaders (14-18) they obviously see more of it. But again they deal with it on a trust basis and it works.

I'm one of them, yes, I won't shy away from it, we've had issues, but nothing insurmountable, and in perspective, we have as many of the standard problems getting chores like washing up done to a standard. It really depends on the explorers you have at the time. We not infrequently have boys and girls sharing tents. Usually I'm talking about, say, 8 all mucking in together in a big tent, before you think I'm some sort of degenerate, I would draw the line at a boy and a girl couple sharing a two man tent. That said, we had a hike competition, and we had a team of 5, 1 girl, as it was March, and temperatures approaching zero, I didn't want her in a tent on her own, so she went in with two of the lads, who she was friends with anyway. I did tell her mum, and her mum said "if the boys try anything, she'll set them straight soon enough". But I think the point is, she was friends with them, through explorer scouting, and S E X doesn't raise its ugly head, they're just mates, they would be offended and confused take we this assumption that as soon as our backs were turned they'd all be getting naked and doing "stuff".

Sorry for your loss.

I'd echo previous comments that scout significant songs could be sung at the celebration of life ceremony. Sadly, I've been to two scout leader funerals this year, and at both a guard of honour of uniformed scout leaders for the incoming coffin lined the path to the church. One also went out to "riding along on the crest of a wave", but I don't know if that's a known song in the US.

Maybe at your campout you could have a tree planting, over here the engraved bench seems popular.

Ian

I came to like the prawn flavored crisps.

As a complete aside, we hosted some portuguese explorer scouts last year (aged 14-18) in the UK, they were also confused by prawn cocktail flavour, but very very confused by Worcestershire Sauce flavoured crisps. (a) it's pronounced "Wo-stir-shire" not "Wor-cess-stir-shire" and (b) had not a clue what that sauce was actually supposed to taste like, when Worcestershire is a place, a county, rather than a thing. Some of them did try them, they're a sort of strong beef flavour, I don't remember any coming back for more.

Some of the feedback from Japan is that there were very long queues for food. I think that was for breakfast, I think they cooked their own dinners within their units, so I guess they had to go "shopping" at the grocery store to get the food. Rather than go to a massive catering tent and be served dinner.

Ian

Oh I know what you mean, many of the over use small camp sites in the Northern Tier area are best described as plop camps. 

 

Barry

And yes, I've had a few plop camps in my time.

Not sure I'd ever describe a scout camp as glamping! Though I'm sure that BP fellow had something to say on the subject, was it "any fool can be uncomfortable on camp"? Or "and fool can camp in good weather"?

Oh, apparently the first has origins in the military, ends "in the field", the second...pass.