SSF

Why would the program have to be watered down for girls to take part? What would you water down? I wouldn't water down anything. 20 nights of camping for camping merit badge, same swim requirements, same hiking requirements. Personal fitness requirements are individually based, do your pre-test, do your interim tests, do a post test, improve from where you started. What do you fear will be watered down?

 

The girls that want in don't want watered down scouts they want scouts as it is now.

 

Almost nothing needs to change for girls to come aboard. Most units in my area have coed adult leadership anyway. Are you afraid a girl or woman will out camp/out knot/out scout a boy or man and make them feel inadequate? I've said several times on different threads here that my girls out do any of the 3 troop of boys that I've been in the outdoors. The girls backpack, camp more as a troop, hike more and generally recreate more outdoors than the boys troops I've been involved in.  Oh, and they are more girl run too. Just like Hawkwin's daughter's troop.    

I may be wrong but I believe that what Eagledad was referring to, when he mentioned watering down the program, was not how advancement standards would have to be lowered to accommodate girls necessarily, but rather how the inclusion of girls into the BSA  program would represent a huge change to this program and organization; which was originally created as a program to meet the needs of boys.

That's why the name of the organization is the Boy Scouts of America, not the Boys and Girls Scouts of America. 

Glad to hear that your girls do so much outdoors and are so adept in their scout skills. Right or wrong though, it's a bit boastful though, IMHO, to say and imply that your girls are better scouts than the boys. 

Again, this is the cultural shift I referenced earlier, i.e. War Against Boys.

Ha! I actually thought the new Ghostbusters was fine for what it was; i.e. a popcorn flick. Didn't see it in the theater of course, just caught it when I came around on cable.

No, my feathers weren't ruffled at all by the all female cast (lol)

No offense to you directly MomWhoCamps, but the fact that the BSA is now actively recruiting girls, all just shameful.

I know it's kind of a radical idea but how about boys participate in Boy Scouts and girls participate in Girl Scouts...? What's so wrong with girls who actually want to play with dolls and Easy Bake Ovens? Our society and culture seems to be pushing girls towards becoming more masculine. They're told that they should not want to be like "Barbie" but rather "Rey" from Star Wars.

As a side note, it's also incredibly sad to me that Star Wars has largely become a franchise for girls. more so than boys.

Right now there's a commercial running in which a dad and his daughter are hard at work making...of all things...a pinewood derby car! And then at the end of the commercial they cut to a whole bunch of girls (not in any type of uniforms) apparently having their own pinewood derby...seriously?? Where did that come from... 

There's another commercial for an airline in which a child (whose face we can't see) is dressed in an astronaut costume going through the airport getting ready for a flight, with parents in tow. At the end of the commercial, just before they board the plane, the child takes off the helmet and..,of course...it's a girl, not a boy as we might have expected...how very PC.

If girls, or their parents, want a more outdoors oriented experience then the Girl Scouts should look seriously into offering programming along those lines, or look into Venturing when they're old enough.

Perhaps the BSA's next evolution (or extinction) will be in transitioning into the Scout of Political Correctness, or perhaps the Social Justice Scouts.

Also, I'd encourage everyone to read "The War Against Boys" by Christina Hoff Somers

Obviously, I don't know what the circumstances were here, but it's clear that you, and I'm sure your son and your family also, are very upset by whatever transpired, and have great concern over the way it was investigated. 

Just to be clear was your son's membership actually revoked by the local council, or was this done by his troop?

You said that the local council knows your son best, so it seems that the council was not involved, but I just want to confirm if that's the case...

Also, while I'm not a Youth Protection authority by any means, my understanding of YP is that it's intended and designed to protect youth from adults, not necessarily to protect youth from other youth. Hypothetically speaking, I don't believe that if two scouts got into a fight, that that would constitute a "Youth Protection" issue. 

I'm not sure that a unit (troop) has the authority to actually revoke a scout's membership from the BSA as a national organization. The unit does, however, have the authority to remove any scout, or scouter, for any reason or no reason at all.

As Stosh noted, there is unfortunately no due process within the BSA. The BSA, and it's units, can kick people out - scouts, scouters, parents or anyone affiliated with them - for any reason they choose, or for no reason at all.  

If your son's membership was actually revoked by the BSA then I would contact the BSA's national headquarters for guidance on appealing that decision. If, however, your son was kicked out of his current troop, then it would just be a matter of either convincing the troop to let him back in, or finding a new troop. 

Although I do not have any experience with a scout being accused of a youth protection violation, I do have experience with and have heard of far too many incidents involving scoutmasters and scout leaders, who put their own egos, agenda and self-interests ahead of doing what's best for the scouts.

I've personally never had any experience with that

If I'm reading between the lines of your post correctly though, it seems that you may have concerns over an incident in which a youth was removed and the manner in which it was handled. 

If you may be able to share a summary and any details of what the situation is and what transpired, that would be very helpful

The council's response to this is so incredibly disappointing, and so wrong.

The troop committee and this district executive all just chose to look the other way and sweep this under the rug, as quietly as possible, so that everything could go back to normal...beyond shameful.

As Edmund Burke wrote: Evil triumphs when good men stand by and do nothing.

I'm sure that at least some of the committee members saw this for exactly what it was, but rather than put themselves (and their sons) on the chopping block for some kind of retaliation or retribution, they chose to look the other way, go with flow and say nothing...it's not right.

tharrell, I'm so sorry again that your sons and your family are going through this. I would encourage you to report this to the highest possible levels and if you can encourage other families to also vote with their feet and leave the troop, then that will definitely have an impact.

This is yet another case where two scouts and their family are ostracized and driven out of their troop, while a bully SM, who lacks self-control is permitted to carry on with no impunity.

I'm so sorry to hear about this situation. The SM's conduct in this case was truly shameful and, based on what you shared, it appears that he clearly lost his temper and acted out of rage and it also sounds as though this kind of behavior on his part has been an ongoing problem.  

In any group of kids, for any kind of activity or group, there will always be rebellious, defiant kids, but the adult who work with them (teachers, coaches, scout leaders, etc,) have to maintain their cool and have to remain the adult in the situation. There's no place in scouting for scout leaders who can't control themselves.

Two things stand out to me from your post, First, that the SM did physically pick-up your son, in an aggressive and intimidating manner, which also must have been quite humiliating for your son. Even just grabbing him would have been inexcusable but the SM went as far as to actually pick up your son and carry him over his shoulder as though he were taking him captive. Second, that the scoutmaster was enraged to the point that camp staff had to pull him away from your son; no doubt concerned that he may lose control even further and might potentially strike your son.

To me, this seems to be a clear Youth Protection issue and based on that, council should investigate this heavily. You should definitely also report this incident to the Charter Organization.

Based on what you shared, this SM should, IMHO, be removed from scouting by the local council. The alternative approach is to engage the other parents who also have issues with his behavior and seek to have him removed through the troop committee or charter organization. That may hinge heavily on whether or not a number of parents would be willing to actively speak up against him.

The fact that your older son is working towards his Eagle, makes this situation all the more sad and unfortunate. I'm truly sorry that your family is going through this.

Finally, it's incredibly unjust to me, that it so many cases like this, in which adult scouters act inappropriately, that it is the scout and his family who ultimately end up being punished by having to find a new unit, rather than the other way around.

Sadly, I'm not at all surprised to hear about Boy Scouts acting selfishly and with little regard or consideration for fellow scouts. I've long believed that the scout oath and law have simply become for many scouts - and scouters - just a bunch of words to be rambled off at the beginning and end of troop meetings. Too few scouts and scouters alike actually live by the oath and law.

As others have noted, the camping trip you've identified does, by all reasonable measures, constitute a scout camping trip that should count towards camping merit badge nights completed.

Regardless of that fact though, your son's SM is clearly marching to the beat of his own drum and, from what you've shared, it appears that he demands that all of his scouts march to that same drum beat as well; i,e, he's inserting his own personal expectations or subjective requirements into the advancement process. 

What this SM is doing is wrong, but bear in mind that, council has no real power to affect the way that this Scoutmaster operates. Only the troop committee and charter org do.

Competition is part of scouting - Klondike Derby, Camporees and every summer camp I've attended has always concluded with some kind of camp wide competition.

Lots of great advice has been shared here.

I too think that it's important not to rush to judgment against the new SM and to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, the fact that he has delayed this for as long as he has, does raise a serious red flag, in my humble opinion.

I hope that your son can resolve this on his own, however, if the SM delays further, then I think that a conversation between you and he, or perhaps the Committee Chair, is in order. 

Obviously scouts interacting with adults is an integral part of the BSA program, but I also believe that if proper advancement procedures aren't being adhered to or if scouts are being intentionally delayed or misled, then that's another matter altogether where I believe that a parent does needs to get involved. And at that point it's not a matter of being a helicopter parent.

I'm so very sorry

Belladona, congratulations again to your son. His desire to stay the course and not throw in the towel on scouting even in the face of unjust treatment is commendable. His achievement should be celebrated, not distorted as something that was stolen or cheated.

There are too many scoutmasters and scouters who are more concerned with "being right" than in doing what's right. Your son's scoutmaster never had your son's best interests at heart.

My advice to you is to have a very candid discussion with your troop's scoutmaster as to exactly what level of participation is required and see if that will mesh with the level of participation that your son puts into swimming, football and band.

The other question I would strongly recommend you ask is does the troop do things by the book. i.e. do they adhere to the BSA program as written or do they choose to march to the beat of their own drum and "apply" the BSA program "as they see fit." The SM might be a bit taken aback by that, and others on this board may disagree with me on this, but it's a completely fair and reasonable question to ask; particularly given that your son a) wants to advance and b) is highly involved  in other pursuits.

For example, I know of a troop that only counts camping trips as "activities," so for that troop, a scout needs to complete five camping trips, as opposed to three camping trips and two activities, as outlined in the actual requirement, to earn Second Class.

The other factor is how far your son wants to go with football, swimming and band. 

As an example, all travel soccer players and their families in my town know that if you play travel soccer in our town league, then you have to commit to putting travel soccer first...period. The league is extremely blunt, direct and unforgiving about this. They don't care what other sports or activities you're involved with. They're thinking is that if you've been fortunate enough to be granted a spot on the travel team, then you'd better be ready to give nothing less than 100% commitment to the team for the whole year; that's the Fall and Spring seasons, as well as playing indoor in the Winter.

I know for a fact that kids have been benched for entire games, for putting another sport or activity ahead of travel soccer. It's not fair or reasonable IMHO, but it is what it is...again, this particular league is unforgiving. 

Matt,

I think this is a great question you've asked and the story you shared is a great example of what scouting should be.

I think you touch on (as I see it) the very important issue of how far askew the BSA program has come from, what it was intended to be. . 

I'm envious of the fact that your troop has been devoid of any of the type of vindictiveness, pettiness, elitism, power tripping, egotism and rogue operations (I don't use any of these descriptions lightly) that I've experienced, as a scouter, or as a parent. 

It's always disheartening to me that when people come to this board seeking advice or recommendation about problems within their troop, the most common answer given is very often "find a new troop, this one will never change," but that's just like sweeping dirt under a rug; i.e. the real problem is never actually addressed and these troops continue to operate however they please...and the BSA (and their Charter Orgs) just let them do it.

CaliGirl, I'm so sorry to hear about what your son and your family had to go through. I too have dealt with a highly corrupt Scoutmaster and Troop Committee so I definitely empathize with what you and your son have gone through.

I think the real question is why does the BSA allow corrupt leaders to retain their positions as registered leaders? 

This seemed to be far more than just a simple misunderstanding of some kind and, based on what you shared, it appears evident that this SM did overtly lie in an attempt to cover-up his own unethical actions. Beyond shameful.

I wonder how often the sons' of Scoutmasters, or other prominent troop leaders, have to undergo EBORs under disputed circumstances? Parent politics play a very ugly role in scouting and there are too many Scoutmasters who see themselves as the Scouts Master.

Belladona,

I'm sorry your son had to go through the ordeal he went through to achieve his rank. He can take pride in knowing that he stood up for himself.

My son also earned Eagle through an EBOR under disputed circumstances, so I empathize with everything your son and your family have had to go through. 

I don't know what the circumstances were surrounding your son's Eagle application, but in the case of my son, the SM and troop committee tried to add a requirement, after my son had already completed that requirement successfully. When my son and I called the troop on this, the SM and CC got very nasty.

The SM even went as far as to try to undermine my son's achievement of one of his final Eagle required merit badges. 

As a side note, for anyone who would say that they have disdain for scouts who have rightfully met the requirements for the rank of Eagle only to be denied based on unwarranted scrutiny from a scoutmaster, or any other scout leader, then I can only say I have equal disdain for those individuals.

Scouting is supposed to be "all about the scouts", but as I and others have said before, all too often it's really all about the scouters.

Regarding your son's ECOH, my recommendation would be to do something privately and only include those who were supportive of your son's advancement.

Regarding the congratulatory letters, council can provide you with the forms to request these directly.

I think you should definitely report the incident to council. That said though, I don't believe council would do anything about it.

Thanks everyone! Definitely a very rocky and rough road, and now that it's done, a tremendous sense of accomplishment and relief.

I'm very pleased to announce that my 17 year old son is now an Eagle Scout

Matt, I agree that this thread has gone on too long and I also agree that there are “bad apples†who everyone, youth and adults alike, will encounter in life.

Counter to your point though about turning the other cheek, a bad cop who acts inappropriately needs to be held accountable. A bad clergy member who acts inappropriately needs to be held accountable and a bad SM, CC or scout leader who acts inappropriately, also needs to be held accountable; either by the CO or by some authority within the BSA.

There are things in life for which we can turn the other cheek, but this is not one of them. My son has worked long and hard towards earning Eagle, He has done everything right but his SM has decided to insert his own subjective criticisms to bar him from achieving this based on his own subjective whims of who is worthy of being an Eagle Scout. 

JoeBob, in short, there is a small handful of other 17 year old Life Scouts in the troop who have been on more camping trips than my son has, but who will most likely not make Eagle due to having not completed a project (or starting too late) or being too far behind on too many merit badge.

I believe that the SM resents the fact that my son has completed everything for Eagle without having gone on as many camping trips as those other scouts whom, I suspect, that the SM feels are "more worthy" of earning Eagle than my son solely because they've been on more camping trips; hence the reason we have the ten night camping requirement. That's what I meant by that.

Beavah, you've made some very harsh and unfair accusations. Please don't try to make me out to be the bad guy here. 

I can assure you that the issues the other parents have are issues of their own concern and these existed well before I ever had any discussions with them. Yes, I did specifically encourage the one family whose son has been misled and jerked around for more than a year over his Eagle proposal to report their concerns to the District Commissioner. They had only previously done so to the District Advancement Chair, which is how and why they also had a meeting with the SM, CC and UC. Believe me when I say that they are legitimately upset in their own right over the treatment that their son has received. 

It's clear to me that you put the well being of scouters ahead of the well being of the scouts. That's my opinion based on all of your comments and posts. I appreciate your feedback and input but don't think there's too much more for us to say beyond that at this point.

I realize this may be fodder for good debate and perhaps even a form of entertainment for some but it is ultimately my life and my sons' lives.

As an Eagle, I wanted my sons to have the same positive experience in scouting that I had and (while they've had many great experiences) at present their participation in scouting is anything but positive. As a family, we're just trying to get through this.

Many thanks for so many comments of support. I have gained value, very good ideas and perspective from the majority of posts, even some of those where I may not necessarily have fully agreed with the sentiments or feedback expressed.

The ban was put in place as a form of retaliation one week after the very contentious meeting that my son and I had with the SM, CC and UC. I was informed of the ban by a telephone call only (yes, seriously) nothing in writing at all. 

I have most definitely not threatened anyone, acted in any inappropriate manner or done anything to warrant being banned. 

Prior to my raising the issues about my older sons advancement, I had a great relationship with everyone in the troop, the scouts, the other leaders and the parents. There were no issues.

When the additional ten nights of camping issue arose, and things began to devolve, the SM strongly suggested that I look for a different troop if my older son and I didn't like the way that things were being done in that troop (ironically he didn’t suggest that my younger son also leave).

My response, in short, was that the troop has to abide by the BSA advancement guidelines and policies. The SM and CC's position was that they could do whatever they wanted to since “the troop committee voted on it.†In their view, as long as the committee approves something then they can do it.

I blew the whistle and opposed what was being done to my older son and they chose to eliminate me as the source of the criticism. 

I have not yet addressed the ban directly with the head of the CO, however, I have discussed the ban with the troop’s CO rep.

We had a good conversation and he does not have any issues with me and I get the sense that he feels that the ban is not at all warranted or fair, however, he seems unwilling to go against the SM and CC.

There are at least four other families/parents that i know of who have issues with the way things are being done in the troop; either related to advancement, bullying (and in some cases racism) between the scouts and a general sense of distrust for the troop’s leaders. Most of the other parents and families beyond that, in my opinion, just go with the flow and do as they're told. I don't think they're especially familiar with BSA rules and regs. 

One of those families in particular feels as strongly as I do about the way the troop has handled their son's Eagle project proposal, which was suspiciously delayed for a year. They also had a meeting with the SM, CC and UC on the same night my older son and I did. Their meeting was also very contentious and heated and, from what I understand, it was the mother who advocated most vocally for her son, while the husband remained relatively quiet.

I’ve encouraged that family to be more vocal with Council, however, they are extremely fearful of retaliation, especially before their son’s Eagle proposal is approved.

Tahawk, Hedgehog, Krampus, jr56  - many thanks again for the words of support.

Again, my son has rightfully completed all requirements by BSA standards and by the troop's own active participation policies.

Bear in mind that the SM changed and added an additional requirement (the ten nights of camping) that was adopted literally overnight at the SM's whim, with no advance notification and then applied retroactively, even after my son had already met the troop's original active participation standard. The SM also completely misled him over the course of the year regarding his SM Conference and signing of his Eagle workbook and application.

He also lied about his knowledge of my son's completion of his one remaining merit badge partial - which the SM is still trying to cling to as a way to somehow prevent my son from becoming an Eagle.

Then there was that travesty of a meeting in which the SM and CC acted like a couple of thugs while the UC did nothing to uphold any of the advancement standards in the GTA.

Scouters are volunteers, however, they still have a moral and ethical obligation to conduct themselves in accordance with the Scout Oath and Scout Law and to be open, honest and supportive of the scouts regarding their advancement and participation.

The SM and CC of my son’s troop have violated those tenets to an egregious degree.

Yes, there will always be variances between the ways that troops operate, however, all units – regardless of their charter org – must operate within the parameters of the BSA program and the GTA. Units do not have an unrestricted right to just do whatever they want to.

If I read some of the other comments correctly it seems that some believe that scouts are there for the purpose of serving the scouters or the Charter Org. It’s the other way around. Souters, the charter org and the BSA should all be putting scout’s first.

Scouts must always come first.

Otherwise what is the point of any of this…

As I've said, it's shameful and vile that good scouts like my son are  made to suffer while vindictive scouters are protected and shielded and allowed to continue to do a great disservice to boys and to their families.

I thought I'd share a brief update. If nothing else it's somewhat, therapeutic, to share my thoughts here.

In short, my older son completed his one final partial for his one outstanding merit badge. The merit badge counselor signed the blue card, but when my son gave the card to the SM, the SM refused to sign it.

Made no sense, but I am no longer surprised by anything from this SM at this point. He's shirked all accountability up to this point. Why start doing the right thing now?

So, the merit badge partial is also something that is now technically, under dispute, although since my son has a blue card signed by a registered counselor and a copy of the work he did, I'm hopeful that this will not be an issue.

Also, a week after my son and I had that horrendous meeting with the SM, CC and UC, I was informed that I had been banned from any and all troop functions, activities or events. It was also emphasized that both of my sons would be immediately removed from the troop if I did not abide by this. 

I guess that when a father speak the truth and is unwilling to sit idly by while two grown men (SM and CC) throw all kinds of false accusations and barbs at your son and tell him that he’s not worthy of being an Eagle Scout, that you’re supposed to just sit there and let them do that.

And when you call them out on statements that are unfair or false, you’re labeled as a trouble maker, and then banned.

Beavah, as you predicted, it seems that my bridges have been burned.

The main issue that I’m now wrestling with is my younger son. He’s indicated that he wants to remain in the troop solely because this is where his friends are – but that is going to be virtually impossible if I’m banned from attending any and all functions. My younger son is not aware of the ban, but my older son is.

On the flip side, in a much as I want my younger son to be able to remain with his friends, I have to think of my son’s health and well being and put that first. The SM and CC have shown a level of contemptuousness that I didn't believe possible for scout leaders to possess.

They've hurt my older son and I have to believe that they would try to hurt (through advancement or other means) my younger son also.

Quick side note - my younger son had recently begun an Eagle required badge with the CC, but low and behold, sure enough I stopped getting any info on when they'd be meeting next...

I am at somewhat of a loss as to how the SM and CC have been allowed to remain in their current positions. 

Council is investigating but, at present, it seems that the self-serving interests of the scouters are being put ahead of what's fair and right for the scouts.

The joys of scouting, so much fun...

My deepest condolences. I'm so very sorry.