NeverAnEagle

Sentinel:

I am a parent. Boys change their behavior if the SM or ASM is standing near by, so we use parents to watch patrols so that we know how they are really preforming. Since my oldest is an Raven and my youngest is an Eagle, I was the obvious parent to watch the Owls. (Another troop rule is one brother per patrol--the parents of this troop have a tendency to beget boys.)

I took your advice and sent out an email asking for another adult volunteer to watch the patrol in order to verify what I saw. So far only Dylan's mom has volunteered and I don't think she'd be a good choice because the boys will know that they are being watched. Then again, maybe then NEED to know they are being watched.

A whole course on EDGE? How can you possibly spend more than 20 minutes explaining EDGE?

 

Over the years I've defended EDGE as part of the Boy Scout program simply because it is ONE way of teaching Scouts how to teach and requires them to pay attention to where their students are in the learning process. I certainly don't think it is a good way to teach in every circumstance, but if you are new at being an instructor it's a good starting point. But for adult trainers?

Around Here Merit Badge Counselor $15; Safety Afloat/Swim Defense renewals $15; CPR is $30; OLS runs $50; SM Specific/Safety Afloat/Swim Defense/Troop Committee $120; Wood Badge is $230. I can't remember what I paid for Trainers Edge, but that was years ago, so it probably cost more now. The only trainings I've been to where I didn't have to pay were online.

A whole course on EDGE? How can you possibly spend more than 20 minutes explaining EDGE?

 

Over the years I've defended EDGE as part of the Boy Scout program simply because it is ONE way of teaching Scouts how to teach and requires them to pay attention to where their students are in the learning process. I certainly don't think it is a good way to teach in every circumstance, but if you are new at being an instructor it's a good starting point. But for adult trainers?

joebob:

It looks more like this:

 

E - Enter the room

X - X-ray your volunteers checkbook.

P - Puff up your tail feathers.

L - List your credentials

A - Affirm the value of repetitive training.

I - Inflate your ego

N - Never actually teach anything . . . . but recommend another, more expensive, err I mean, EXTENSIVE course.

Sentinel:

I am a parent. Boys change their behavior if the SM or ASM is standing near by, so we use parents to watch patrols so that we know how they are really preforming. Since my oldest is an Raven and my youngest is an Eagle, I was the obvious parent to watch the Owls. (Another troop rule is one brother per patrol--the parents of this troop have a tendency to beget boys.)

~~What do you do with the boy causing problems isn’t the obvious suspect?

 

Our last group of Weblo’s included Lars, a high strung lad with ADHD. He managed to earn absolutely nothing at Summer Camp. When they were settled into Patrols in August it was suggested that he be in a Patrol with James, a small, mild mannered boy, because their teachers keeps them together at school because James is a good influence on Lars. Anyway it became immediately obvious that Lars was disrupting his patrol (Owls) and that neither the PL nor SPL could manage him. I was sent to watch and make suggestions that could be given at the next PLC.

 

What I saw was as follows: James would say something like, “Hey Lars, bet you can’t huck a loogie over to where Alex is sitting.†Or something similar, then Lars would oblige. I decided that James wasn’t exactly a calming influence and suggested that Lars try another patrol, but that we keep James where he was. When Lars was accepted into the Ravens patrol, I was told to keep watching and see if he would continue to cause problems; he didn’t.

 

One night Lars was selected to dig some cooking equipment out of the closet, when Alex followed him in and started shoving him around and saying that Lars ruined the Owl patrol because now they only had 7 boys and both of the other Patrols have 9 boys. I separated them and sent both boys back to their Patrols. There was another scuffle over at the Owls area that night when Alex started sniping at the PL for not being able to keep the patrol together and demanding new elections. Since Lars seemed to be doing well in his patrol, I was sent back to watch the Owls.

 

James had buddied up to Alex in the time I was away watching Lars, and kept telling Alex that he would be a far better PL than the current boy. Then James started telling the other boys that Alex would make a better PL. After a couple of weeks the boys mutinied and Alex got into a shoving match with the PL over the removal of Lars from the patrol. The boys were separated and told that LARS was the reason LARS was moved, it was not a result of poor leadership by the PL. Alex refused to be in the Owls patrol if he couldn’t be the PL, so he was sent to the Eagles patrol. I was told to keep watch over the Owls to ensure that the rebellion had died down.

 

Our entire Troop does the tenderfoot fitness test every 30 days all year long. The thinking is that if a boy misses the fitness test meeting, joined at a different time, didn’t make any improvements, etc. he can always catch it on the next go-round and it’s good for the boys to run a mile every 30 days anyway. Dylan (another of our new scouts) broke his leg playing baseball this summer and is still on crutches. Consequently he hasn’t done any of the 30 day fitness tests since. He helps count, measure, or time, and when he’s off the crutches he’ll have to run the mile like all the other boys, but for now, he’s the timer.

 

James started telling the other boys that it wasn’t fair that Dylan didn’t have to run with everyone else and pretty soon the other boys started picking on James claiming that he shouldn’t get special treatment and that he wasn’t really hurt. Jacob stabbed Dylan with a pencil one night and drew blood. Another night Jacob tripped Dylan and took his crutches away. Last night Jacob punched Dylan and knocked him flat. He was pulled from the room and the SM said that James had paid Jacob $10 to punch Dylan.

 

Now the Committee wants to remove the rank of the current PL because there hasn’t been any order in that patrol since elections in September. I’ve told the committee that the PL has been doing his best but that James keeps manipulating the other boys to get them to act out. James manipulated Lars, but Lars hasn’t had any issues in his new patrol. It wasn’t until after James started telling Alex how wonderful he was that Alex acted out. Alex isn’t having any trouble in his new patrol either. James was the one who started complaining about Dylan, and he’s the one who paid Jacob to punch a kid on crutches. The committee doesn’t see it that way and says James couldn’t possibly be the problem because he is the smallest boy in the troop and always quiet and mild mannered.

 

What do I do now?

 

Ahh . . . The old cross-over delima.

The person who was CM before me would hold all the boys back until everyone was ready to cross over. That would mean sometimes there would be a cross-over in February; other times not until May.

I favored the policy that a boy could cross-over anytime he has his AOL completed. Some boys crossed over on their own, most waited for their buddies. It was done when the boys were ready and wanted to go. Boys who did not earn the AOL did not get to become boy scouts until they completed the 5^th grade.

 

You’ve only got one boy, so if his AOL is complete and he wants to, you could cross him over now and be done with it. Howeverâ€â€if the AOL is not complete he waits until June.

Dedkad:

I've never seen a bridge used for Boy Scout Cross-over, but I've only seen cross-overs for 3 of the area packs.

 

I have seen a lot of strangely constructed bridges used at Blue & Gold banquets so that tigers could become wolves, etc. I used to run the FOS circuit for area Packs when I was the Cub Round Table commissioner. Every pack I visited had something the boys had to walk over to advance, though it was seldom very steady. I guess that was part of the fun.

I seem to have a different perspective then the OP. Seems to me, when ever an article is written about a past Eagle scout doing something criminal, his rank of Eagle is brought up in the article. I can understand if they are fairly young, and the Eagle rank was only a year or so ago, or the idiot who had underage drinking party to celebrate his Eagle rank achievement.. But, when you are talking about a 60 year old shoplifter, does it really matter that he had earned Eagle in his youth. He had lived a lot of life between these two periods in time. I have never seen it written that some older criminal element was in 4H, or the debate club in his youth.

Moosetracker:

I think that is probably because 4H, FFA, debate, etc. don't place as much value on character development.

A 17 year old 4H member will compete in the same class as a 8 year old 4H member when it comes to animal quality, because classes are divided by weight of hog, sheep, etc. When it comes to wining a champion ribbon there is claim that they achieved moral, or ethical heights, just that they had the better marbled, or better muscled animal. It's the same for non-animal projects as well. All first year projects (example 1st year Dutch oven cookery, 1st year handwork from our Heritage) are judged together regardless of whether the kid is 8 or 11, or any other age. They are taking that project for the 1st year, so they are all together. Likewise there is no claim that someone is an exceptionally good kid just because they can season a Dutch oven.

We make too big of an issue of crossing-over. Great hoopla is made out of it. Yet with the hoopla around AOL it often is counter to cross-over. "You're done with scouting you can quit.

 

What about the Boy Scout that shows up and he doesn't have an AOL patch on his shirt or even a shirt, or Religious knot, or anything else for that matter because he was never a Cub Scout? What does he see going on around him? All he's done is sign an application form and showed up. Is there a ceremony for him to get a necker and book? or is he to just go pick one up at the scout office when he buys a shirt and pants? When he sits around his first campfire, what can he contribute to the discussion?

 

When I was doing the part of my WB ticket on Web -> Scouts transition, the boy's got their AOL at the Pack meeting following completion of their work. No big deal. Once they turned 10.5 years old, they could simply quit coming to den meetings and start going to troop meetings. No flair, no ceremony, just a smooth transition into the program. They were never told they were at the end of anything, there was no start, just a change of venue and life continued on.

 

New kid with no scouting experience joins up? Well, he comes in and starts a process just like he did to find a troop he liked. He is not assigned a patrol, he has the opportunity to "visit" with each patrol and then upon mutual consent, simply hangs out with his new buddies. There is NO ceremony for him to point out that he didn't do Cub Scouts!

 

I can see a lot of self-esteem building going on in Cub Scout bling acquisition, but if that process doesn't mature into self-respect building in Scouting, one ends up with the hoopla Eagle Scout problems mentioned in many threads.

 

I find that when scouts come in with no Cub background, they tend to develop self-respect quicker because they don't have all that self-esteem seeking baggage to drag along.

 

Stosh

Stosh--

 

Our troop holds a Joining Ceremony for all new scouts. Once they finish the joining requirements we make a big deal of giving them their scout patch and neckerchief.

Ahh . . . The old cross-over delima.

The person who was CM before me would hold all the boys back until everyone was ready to cross over. That would mean sometimes there would be a cross-over in February; other times not until May.

I favored the policy that a boy could cross-over anytime he has his AOL completed. Some boys crossed over on their own, most waited for their buddies. It was done when the boys were ready and wanted to go. Boys who did not earn the AOL did not get to become boy scouts until they completed the 5^th grade.

 

You’ve only got one boy, so if his AOL is complete and he wants to, you could cross him over now and be done with it. Howeverâ€â€if the AOL is not complete he waits until June.

The OA members are supposed to be there to welcome them into the brotherhood of scouting. The ceremonies work like this: Parents present child with arrow, CM gives child patch, a group of nearly naked OA boys make an @ss of themselves, then the boys are officially Boy Scouts. The Troop has no part in this.

 

Neckerchiefs are handed out at the Troops Court of Honor, Joining Ceremony, or whatever the Troop chooses to do. The Pack has no part in this. (Our Troop does a Joining Ceremony in conjunction with a COH where possible.)

 

 

The only time the “bridge†is used is for cubs to advance in rank (Ex. Tigers become wolves, wolves become bears, etc.) Because those kids are grouped by grade and move up together in the same unit. When Weblos become Boy Scouts they are all going in different directions.

 

If you are Protestant and willing to pay to have your kids in the Catholic school, they can be in the Catholic Pack, however, they cannot join the Catholic troop, because the Catholic school is only an elementary. Catholic families who do not attend the Catholic school are not allowed to join the Catholic Pack, but are expected to join the Catholic troop. Mormon families whose boys are in a Pack chartered by a school or PTA group will be pressured to join a Mormon troop, etc. Mormon boys depart at age 11 regardless of where they are in the Weblo/AOL process, so either they leave early and miss the ceremony, or they have to stick around after the ceremony until they turn 11 and end up being a den of 1 or 2, depending on which month the cross-over is held.

 

Since the boys are all going different directions (15 troops to choose from in a county with a population of only 32,000) it was easier just to send them when they were ready. I know a lot of the parents appreciated it because then the younger cubs were no longer exposed to the drunken dancing of teen boys wearing only underwear and body paint.

I'm glad you Gents are enjoying this.

 

I was thinking something like this could become a SM min.

Maybe paint a profile of two guys (One of them above) and some other chap and ask the boys to identify who the Eagle is.

I'd bet the boys wouldn't ever associate a criminal with the rank of Eagle. Might get them thinking along the lines of actions speaking louder than words. They can earn they rank, but the rank doesn't make them a respectable citizen.

 

I’d be interested to see a list of other infamous Eagle Scouts;

All who earn the rank of Eagle are not good

Chief Scout Executive Robert Mazzuca, and his anti-Scouting campaign!

 

"Did you know that there was a time when to be a First Class Scout--you guys didn't know this I bet--did you guys have to learn how to catch a runaway horse to be a First Class Scout? When was the last time you saw a runaway horse?"

Chorus from the Audience: "Tuesday"

 

 

http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

Well, I guess there better off than me, because I haven't seen a run-away horse since September. LOL!

Ahh . . . The old cross-over delima.

The person who was CM before me would hold all the boys back until everyone was ready to cross over. That would mean sometimes there would be a cross-over in February; other times not until May.

I favored the policy that a boy could cross-over anytime he has his AOL completed. Some boys crossed over on their own, most waited for their buddies. It was done when the boys were ready and wanted to go. Boys who did not earn the AOL did not get to become boy scouts until they completed the 5^th grade.

 

You’ve only got one boy, so if his AOL is complete and he wants to, you could cross him over now and be done with it. Howeverâ€â€if the AOL is not complete he waits until June.

BD--Non-Catholic boys were not allowed in the Catholic Troop, so when they were ready to move on, we sent them to whatever troop they wanted.

 

I've never seen a SM at a Cross-over ceremony. They way it's done in my council is you let the DE know when you are ready and they send some OA boys out to do the Cross-over. Unfortunately, the boys who show up are usually, 1) Drunk, 2) Stoned, or 3) Both. Then they dance around in their underwear and loin clothes, let out a couple of "war cries" generally make a spectitcal of themselves and a mockery of Native American traditions. That's why I got rid of the whole Cross-over bit.

What is the purpose of this thread other than to bash on Eagle Scouts?

 

Yes, some Eagle Scouts don't live up to the ideals they professed. Some lose track of those ideals. I fail to see the point of this thread.

I saw an article where an Eagle Scout ended up accidentally scattering a ton of pot over an airport and was amused. I tried to verify it, but couldn't but came across these instead. Just found it interesting.

http://crime.about.com/od/serial/a/richardangelo.htm

Profile of Serial Killer Richard Angelo; Angel of Death

Richard Angelo was 26 years old when he went to work at Good Samaritan Hospital on Long Island in New York. He had a background of doing good things for people as a former Eagle Scout and volunteer fireman.

It’s often publicized when at Eagle Scout earns a high rank elsewhere. (Think of Gerald Ford, Ross Perot, and Neil Armstrong.) It’s odd to claim the moral, ethical, or scholarly high ground for the entire organization when someone with the rank of Eagle happens to attain such accolades, epically when ignoring other, equally famous Eagle Scouts.

 

I found this particularly interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Charles Joseph Whitman (June 24, 1941 – August 1, 1966) was an American engineering student and former U.S. Marine, who killed seventeen people and wounded thirty-two others in a mass shooting rampage located in and around the Tower of the University of Texas in Austin on the afternoon of August 1, 1966.

 

I’d be interested to see a list of other infamous Eagle Scouts; it does an organization well to humble themselves and realize that the accomplishments of its members can be equal parts good and bad.

 

All who earn the rank of Eagle are not good, and all who are good are not Eagles.

 

Ahh . . . The old cross-over delima.

The person who was CM before me would hold all the boys back until everyone was ready to cross over. That would mean sometimes there would be a cross-over in February; other times not until May.

I favored the policy that a boy could cross-over anytime he has his AOL completed. Some boys crossed over on their own, most waited for their buddies. It was done when the boys were ready and wanted to go. Boys who did not earn the AOL did not get to become boy scouts until they completed the 5^th grade.

 

You’ve only got one boy, so if his AOL is complete and he wants to, you could cross him over now and be done with it. Howeverâ€â€if the AOL is not complete he waits until June.

It depends on your council. I was accused of being discriminatory when I refused to allow a man who spent 18 months in prison for embezzlement to be the Pack treasurer. Council said he paid his debt to society and he could not be denied.

I still thought it was a bad move to allow someone with a known history of embezzlement to handle Pack funds . . . I don't know BSA Paid staff think . . .

I think our notion of privacy has changed.

 

When I was a kid we all knew there wasn't any expectation of privacy on the phone because the other 4 households on your party line could, would, and often did listen in on your conversations and if there was anything juicy it was repeated all over town. Everyone knew there wasn't any privacy if you were using the telephone. Now we freak out because some knows that 555-1212 called 555-1234 at 7:49 PM and it lasted 00:09:36. We have more privacy now than we ever did before.

 

Once upon a time when I was a kid if you did something in, err, PUBLIC, like attending a city council meeting, eating in a restaurant, walking down 7th Street while a news paper reporter was taking pictures of a Crazy Day Sale, or any other activity in PUBLIC you didn't claim that your privacy was violated because you were in PUBLIC and didn't have a right to privacy because what you were doing was in plain view of everyone else.

 

People use Facebook and Twitter then scream about privacy being violated, but when we were kids no one would ever dream of posting naked pictures of themselves (or anything that was supposed to be private) in the Newspaper. Facebook, webpages, blogs, Twitter, etcetera ad nauseam, are no different than newspapers . . . they are not Private they are PUBLIC and you do not have a right to privacy when you are displaying things in public.

 

I don't see how anyone can claim we've lost privacy when people are deliberately making everything they do all day very public.

months . . . . If you send in a "expedited application" you can here back in as little as 4 months . . . otherwise prepare for a long wait.

It depends on your council. I was accused of being discriminatory when I refused to allow a man who spent 18 months in prison for embezzlement to be the Pack treasurer. Council said he paid his debt to society and he could not be denied.

Is there a minimum number of boys as a Troop?

I think you an be a troop of 1.

 

We have a troop here that was down to 2 before crossing over some Weblos in May.

Absolutely no memories are accurate. Eye witness testimonies are often wrong and disproved by DNA or other evidence.

 

I am an amateur Historian and one of the first thing you learn is that all those oral histories collected from "old timers" are bunk. They will claim to remember anything but, when you get back to good source documentation you often find that the "old-timers" have sent you off on a wild goose chase.

 

I was working on a project for the local historical society when some idiot decided he was going to one up the historical societies publication by doing the research himself and publishing it in bits and pieces in the community newspaper. He interviewed people who claimed their grandparents had told them the story of how a local highway man became notorious for murdering miners and steeling their gold. The newspaper published the information before we had a chance to based on these interviews and oral histories.

 

I got the names, then looked up birth records of those claiming to remember the Henry Plummer gang. The oldest was born in 1903; Henry Plummer, the highway in question, was hung in 1861.

 

Bottom line the people claiming to remember the rain of terror never did the math because the oldest wasn't born until nearly 40 years after the man in question had died. It was pointed out that the persons in question had contributed an oral history to the Historical Society in 1986, before they died. We found the oral histories and attached notes that read, "NOT ACCURATE." The newspaper refused to run a retraction of the story and now the community thinks they know the history of the area, when they really haven't got a clue, all because they relied on some old-coots memory.

It doesn't matter whether the memory is an exaggeration or a lie--

Memories are inaccurate and you need accuracy when trying to record history.

If your looking for a mess kit there is a good one from Army Surplus that is "Scout Proof." It's heavier than other kits, but the boys can beat the devil out of it and it will keep it's shape and still function.

Absolutely no memories are accurate. Eye witness testimonies are often wrong and disproved by DNA or other evidence.

 

I am an amateur Historian and one of the first thing you learn is that all those oral histories collected from "old timers" are bunk. They will claim to remember anything but, when you get back to good source documentation you often find that the "old-timers" have sent you off on a wild goose chase.

 

I was working on a project for the local historical society when some idiot decided he was going to one up the historical societies publication by doing the research himself and publishing it in bits and pieces in the community newspaper. He interviewed people who claimed their grandparents had told them the story of how a local highway man became notorious for murdering miners and steeling their gold. The newspaper published the information before we had a chance to based on these interviews and oral histories.

 

I got the names, then looked up birth records of those claiming to remember the Henry Plummer gang. The oldest was born in 1903; Henry Plummer, the highway in question, was hung in 1861.

 

Bottom line the people claiming to remember the rain of terror never did the math because the oldest wasn't born until nearly 40 years after the man in question had died. It was pointed out that the persons in question had contributed an oral history to the Historical Society in 1986, before they died. We found the oral histories and attached notes that read, "NOT ACCURATE." The newspaper refused to run a retraction of the story and now the community thinks they know the history of the area, when they really haven't got a clue, all because they relied on some old-coots memory.

Useful in that the person can tell you what they typically ate for dinner. Not useful when it comes to actual real life facts. Old men will claim they fought in several battles in WWII when they were really 4F. Old women will claim that they had to start the laundry at 2 AM for "Washing Wednesdays" when the electric company records show that "Washing Wednesday" electricity didn't come on until 4:30 AM.

 

I'm working on a book right now and discussed this very frustration with our state historian. He said if you want good information you really need to stay away from the oral histories. Old folks get alzthimers and dementia. Young ones don't relay memories accurately either.

Absolutely no memories are accurate. Eye witness testimonies are often wrong and disproved by DNA or other evidence.

 

I am an amateur Historian and one of the first thing you learn is that all those oral histories collected from "old timers" are bunk. They will claim to remember anything but, when you get back to good source documentation you often find that the "old-timers" have sent you off on a wild goose chase.

 

I was working on a project for the local historical society when some idiot decided he was going to one up the historical societies publication by doing the research himself and publishing it in bits and pieces in the community newspaper. He interviewed people who claimed their grandparents had told them the story of how a local highway man became notorious for murdering miners and steeling their gold. The newspaper published the information before we had a chance to based on these interviews and oral histories.

 

I got the names, then looked up birth records of those claiming to remember the Henry Plummer gang. The oldest was born in 1903; Henry Plummer, the highway in question, was hung in 1861.

 

Bottom line the people claiming to remember the rain of terror never did the math because the oldest wasn't born until nearly 40 years after the man in question had died. It was pointed out that the persons in question had contributed an oral history to the Historical Society in 1986, before they died. We found the oral histories and attached notes that read, "NOT ACCURATE." The newspaper refused to run a retraction of the story and now the community thinks they know the history of the area, when they really haven't got a clue, all because they relied on some old-coots memory.