NeverAnEagle

Now all councils are different....

 

But you are refering to what is called Fund our Salaries. This is when the Paid council folks snooker our families out of their hard earned money.

 

I too donated a few years, Thinking the money was going to be used to maintain our camps, or buy uniforms, books and programs for those less fortunate. Well not so much.

 

Council books are closed so you will never truly know where all the money goes. You will never know how much they take in or spend.....

 

 

I have a beef because of the closed books and.............. So explain to me a trap shooting event they bragged raised $!5,000 on a district level......So explain to me why the camporee is $15 a head just to participate So where did all that money that was raised in the name of the boys go????? The folks manning the stations donate the supplies, no patches.......Parents and leaders are asking why $15 and then they have the audacity to complain at roundtable to complain that none of the troops participated.

 

I am frustrated by FOS.....I have no problem donating my money, but for a SE who is making $200k a year.......

 

We told the District NO one year and they came to our Blue and Gold uninvited and struck before the Pack leadership could respond......We were serving food and he came in walked right up on stage and started the presentation.

 

 

Look at those free rank advancement patches.....Not belt loops, event patches nothing else......So Free rank is like $2 per boy.......Our council includes going to a council owned camp..... Your better off just buying them.

They seek into ECOH's and do it here too; just plain tacky IMO.

Now all councils are different....

 

But you are refering to what is called Fund our Salaries. This is when the Paid council folks snooker our families out of their hard earned money.

 

I too donated a few years, Thinking the money was going to be used to maintain our camps, or buy uniforms, books and programs for those less fortunate. Well not so much.

 

Council books are closed so you will never truly know where all the money goes. You will never know how much they take in or spend.....

 

 

I have a beef because of the closed books and.............. So explain to me a trap shooting event they bragged raised $!5,000 on a district level......So explain to me why the camporee is $15 a head just to participate So where did all that money that was raised in the name of the boys go????? The folks manning the stations donate the supplies, no patches.......Parents and leaders are asking why $15 and then they have the audacity to complain at roundtable to complain that none of the troops participated.

 

I am frustrated by FOS.....I have no problem donating my money, but for a SE who is making $200k a year.......

 

We told the District NO one year and they came to our Blue and Gold uninvited and struck before the Pack leadership could respond......We were serving food and he came in walked right up on stage and started the presentation.

 

 

Look at those free rank advancement patches.....Not belt loops, event patches nothing else......So Free rank is like $2 per boy.......Our council includes going to a council owned camp..... Your better off just buying them.

They seek into ECOH's and do it here too; just plain tacky IMO.

Percentage that comes back to the units: 0%

All the money that is generated from FOS stays in the council office. In our council if you meet your FOS goal you get 15% of the use of camp during one off-season weekend. WHOOP-DE-DOO! Using camp is still 10 times more expensive than taking kids out into the National Forest for regular camping.

A good part of the success of the BSA is that historically any boy in America was able to join. But for the last several decades, as America has become more ethnically and culturally diverse and open, some very fundamentalist Christian groups have been trying to exclude more and more people from the BSA. Basically these groups want the BSA to be the same as it was in the 1950s.

 

I don't see Trail Life USA becoming much more than another fringe scouting group. The BSA casts too large of a shadow.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informe...ve_hate_groups

In addition to the active KKK groups listed above there are an additional 20 different white supremacy groups which hold active chapters in the USA, listed here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...#United_States

Where do you live?

As I wrote in the now missing thread, my belief is that their reason for leaving and creating their own group was not really about gays, but about non-sectarianism. The vote was the signal that their 20 year quest to turn the BSA into a conservative Christians first club (anyone can join, as long as they recognize that non-conservative Christians are second class members) had failed. I've been reading the forums on OnMyHonor.org and now the new web site, and the gay question is definitely secondary to the religion question. At least for most of the forum posters. Given what some of those posters had wrote (why we need to keep the dirty Muslims out, or why we shouldn't allow Jews), I'm glad those particular posters are leaving. And the lack of "I disagree" posts in response was disturbing (there were a few). But these were just forum posters, not arguments from the founders. I just hope it doesn't reflect the attitudes of the general membership. I personally think it was discussions like this, that became one of the reasons they deleted the old forums when they launched.

 

As for the new organization as a whole, I wish them well. There is plenty of room in this world for good youth groups!

NeverAnEagle - Again, that is a Charter Organization (CO) releasing their charter, on a BSA unit, including the unit number.

 

The CO OWNS the unit..

 

If the unit folks want to split from the CO, that is their choice, and can be done. However - if the Co decides that it still wants that BSA unit (just without the dissident members) the CO can hold onto all unit funds, unit equipment, and the unit number, for use by IT'S unit. The CO holds the charter (permission from BSA National to have a BSA unit) - NOT the people, in the unit (including unit leaders or Committee members).

 

At that point, the folks leaving the CO's unit would have to go CO shopping to create a brand new unit from scratch, or go to another, already established, unit.

Yeah, technically your Athiest Webelos cannot be members of the BSA. there is certainly no Emblem of Faith they can earn since they don't have any faith in God, eh?

 

At Webelos level, we take it to mean that the youth is exploring his faith and whether he believes or not, but that his parents are declaring themselves Athiest. so our pack doesn't kick them out for that. We do encourage them to explore other faiths, and an excellent way to do it locally is thru the 10 commandment hike that Grand Canyon Council puts on, where we visit the house of worship for many denominations, hike to each one, covering maybe 5 miles in the process. We will usually have the standard christian groups catholics, protestant, methodists,etc and LDS but also Jewish, Muslim and sometimes we get Hindu (they usually talk in a park setting along the way). Each group talks about one of the Commandments, how it applies in their religion if it does, and then talks a little bit about their church and opens it up to the youth to ask questions, where you get the questions of why the pastor wears those robes or why the church windows are stained glass or why there are all these symbols on the wall. You could do similar by visiting a few religious organizations/churches in your area to expose them to options, with their parents approval of course.

 

However, by the time they are Boy Scouts, they'll need to determine if they have a faith in a higher power or not. They do not have to belong to a religious organization, so they don't have to be a member of a church, and don't have to earn the emblem of faith in their religion, but they have to have a faith in a higher power.

 

 

It is best to have this discussion soon, rather than put it off for the scoutmaster to be caught unaware later on, and it to become an issue of someone getting kicked out.

Did the lad actually say, "Hey Mr. B, I'm atheist." or could you simply let it go and assume he said, "Hey Mr. B, I'm a theist."

Simply letting atheist spell the word with an extra space could solve a lot of problems. Not to mention that the sentences sound exactly the same!

I will have a 13 year old eagle if he schedules his Board of Review anytime soon. It depends on the kid, his brother is 16 and still only Star. If you have a highly motivated kid who does everything he's supposed to age should not be an issue. I've heard similar grumblings here, which is why you have to document everything. My son decided when he was 10 years old that he would make Eagle before his brother and set himself on a course to do so. I'd hate to see any child punished for being motivated and industrious.

A good part of the success of the BSA is that historically any boy in America was able to join. But for the last several decades, as America has become more ethnically and culturally diverse and open, some very fundamentalist Christian groups have been trying to exclude more and more people from the BSA. Basically these groups want the BSA to be the same as it was in the 1950s.

 

I don't see Trail Life USA becoming much more than another fringe scouting group. The BSA casts too large of a shadow.

There still are councils who practice racial discrimination; now they just do it under the guise of "allowing units to choose their membership." Most of the units are sponsored by churches and a lot of churches do not allow non-whites to join their congregations, hence they are prohibited from joining the unit as well.

The short answer is yes.

I was with a Pack that was moved because the Chartered Organization no longer wanted to provide a meeting place after the CM registered a Mormon family. The Pack was given the option of either kicking the boys out or meeting elsewhere; we choose to meet elsewhere.

Instead of "Faith has two meanings" maybe you should approach it from the perspective of "Many meanings have Faith."

I thought about this today after adding a new word to my lexicon. The word was "Catamount" and I had never come across it before. I was reading a book set in Appalachia which included a passage about a fearsome catamount who was terrorizing the families in the glen. The description and choice of words evoked an emotion (fear.) Not being familiar with the word or Appalachia I thought it might be a dangerous mythical creature not unlike the Lock Ness Monster or Big Foot. I looked up the word and discovered that a catamount is also known as: Puma, Cougar, Mountain Lion, and Panther. Armed with information I returned to the book with understanding, no longer confused with a fear of the unknown.

The same is true for religion. A lot of people engage in knee-jerk reactions because they are uneducated. I'm on the "bad list" of a good portion of the community because I'm not Christian. I hear a lot about "those atheist," "those Muslims," or "those who are into the Occult." If people took the time to understand each other they would know that "those atheist" actually posses a moral compass and "those Muslims" worship the same God as you Christians, or that those "weirdos into the occult" really just worship nature.

Good Luck. (And you might want to pick up a copy of Being a United Methodist in the Bible Belt and read it before you begin; it has good information on how to counter denominational infighting.)

O Great Spirit whose voice I hear in the winds

And whose breath gives life to all the world, hear me.

 

I come before you as one of your many children . I am small and weak.

I need your strength and wisdom.

 

Let me walk in beauty. Make my eyes ever behold the red and purple sunset.

Make my hands respect the things you have made

And my ears sharp to hear your voice.

 

Make me wise so I may learn the things you have taught my people,

the lessons you have hidden under every leaf and rock.

 

I seek strength, not to be superior to my brothers,

But to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself.

 

Make me ever ready to come to you with clean hands and straight eyes,

so when life fades like the fading sunset,

my spirit will come to you without shame.

 

=attributed to Chief Yellow Lark, Blackfoot =

I get confused reading your post because you are talking about Webelos and you keep using the word Troop. Webelos are not in a troop they are in a Pack. Secondly, all of your scouts may not be able to earn the Religous Emblem because their religion may not have one recognized by the BSA. Be very careful bringing up the word atheist in the BSA, some councils are very understanding and will work with a family to find some common ground, others will not. If questioned on the subject, and the response is not satisfactory membership in the BSA can be denied in some circumstances. Pastafarianism is a fun option for many, although there is no recognized Emblem. I am not an official member of The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster but have friends that are. It seems to satisfy both the BSA and many atheists and non-atheists.

Use Scoutlike invocations. There are some very neutral ones out there. 1. A SCOUT'S PRAYER

 

Lord, we thank you for this day.

Help us to do our best every day,

And forgive us when we slip.

 

Teach us to be kind to other people

and to help them at all times

Bless our parents and teachers and leaders

and all the members of Scouting

 

Bless us, Lord in your love for us

Help us to be a better Scouts

and let us do our best for you

 

Amen

 

5. A SCOUTER'S PRAYER

 

"Build me a Scout, O Lord, who will be strong enough to know when he is weak and brave enough to face himself when he is afraid; one who will be proud and unbending in honest defeat, and humble and gentle in victory...

 

Build me a Scout whose wishes will not take the place of deeds; a Scout who himself is the

foundation stone of knowledge...

 

Lead him, I pray, not in the path of ease and comfort, but under the stress and spur of difficulties and challenge. Here let him learn to stand up in the storm; here let him learn compassion for those who fail...

 

Build me a Scout whose heart will be clear, whose goals will be high. A Scout who will master himself before he seeks to master others, one who will march into the future, yet never forget the past...

 

And after all these things are his, add, I pray, enough of a sense of humor so that he may always be serious, yet never take himself too seriously. Give him humility, so that he may always remember the simplicity of true wisdom, and the meekness of true strength...

 

Then I, a Scouter who knew him, will dare to whisper, `I have not lived in vain.'"

A Muslim, Jewish, or any other payer would be very different.

Muslim: "Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Universe,

the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful!

Master of the Day for Judgment!

You alone do we worship and You alone do we call on for help.

Guide us along the Straight Path,

The path of those whom You have favored,

Not the path of those who earned Your anger, nor of those who went astray. Amen."

Jewish: "Blessed are you, Lord, our God, sovereign of the universe

Who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us

to light the lights of Shabbat. (Amen) "

Wiccan: "Make me strong in spirit, courageous in action, gentle in heart.

Let me act in Wisdom, conquer my fear and doubts, discover my own hidden gifts.

Meet others with compassion, be a source of healing energies, and let each day be a source of hope and joy.

So mote it be."

Buddhist: "May each of us find our true path and learn from our karma and accept each other's evolutionary pathway and not feel, show, or express disapproval with the choices the other makes. May we feel compassion instead of hatred, love instead of anger, and an acceptance not only of others but of ourselves as well. May each of us do all of the above in a mindful way."

Every religion has it's own form for worship. All too often Christian think the are including others, but don't realize that what they are doing can be very offensive to others. I think many don't truly understand the difference between non-denominational and non-sectarian; or simply don't realize that other religions pray and worship very differently. Probably because they've never experienced anything other than the Christian faith.

Confidential files turned over for a lawsuit set to go to trial in Minnesota may shed new light on the problem of sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts of America.

Attorneys for one former Scout won a court order for the nationwide internal files, commonly known as "ineligible volunteer" or "perversion files."

They cover the years 1999-2008, much more recent than similar files forced into the open in an Oregon case last year.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/files-detail-sex-abuse-boy-scouts-20193511

I get confused reading your post because you are talking about Webelos and you keep using the word Troop. Webelos are not in a troop they are in a Pack. Secondly, all of your scouts may not be able to earn the Religous Emblem because their religion may not have one recognized by the BSA. Be very careful bringing up the word atheist in the BSA, some councils are very understanding and will work with a family to find some common ground, others will not. If questioned on the subject, and the response is not satisfactory membership in the BSA can be denied in some circumstances. Pastafarianism is a fun option for many, although there is no recognized Emblem. I am not an official member of The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster but have friends that are. It seems to satisfy both the BSA and many atheists and non-atheists.

At least the "rest of us" can still celebrate Festivus!

Use Scoutlike invocations. There are some very neutral ones out there. 1. A SCOUT'S PRAYER

 

Lord, we thank you for this day.

Help us to do our best every day,

And forgive us when we slip.

 

Teach us to be kind to other people

and to help them at all times

Bless our parents and teachers and leaders

and all the members of Scouting

 

Bless us, Lord in your love for us

Help us to be a better Scouts

and let us do our best for you

 

Amen

 

5. A SCOUTER'S PRAYER

 

"Build me a Scout, O Lord, who will be strong enough to know when he is weak and brave enough to face himself when he is afraid; one who will be proud and unbending in honest defeat, and humble and gentle in victory...

 

Build me a Scout whose wishes will not take the place of deeds; a Scout who himself is the

foundation stone of knowledge...

 

Lead him, I pray, not in the path of ease and comfort, but under the stress and spur of difficulties and challenge. Here let him learn to stand up in the storm; here let him learn compassion for those who fail...

 

Build me a Scout whose heart will be clear, whose goals will be high. A Scout who will master himself before he seeks to master others, one who will march into the future, yet never forget the past...

 

And after all these things are his, add, I pray, enough of a sense of humor so that he may always be serious, yet never take himself too seriously. Give him humility, so that he may always remember the simplicity of true wisdom, and the meekness of true strength...

 

Then I, a Scouter who knew him, will dare to whisper, `I have not lived in vain.'"

Isn't there a place where old threads can go to die????

With Trail Life taking the "Fundies" won't this become a non-issue now?

I honestly think at this point the gay issue was an excuse for some people to get out of the BSA and start their own organization. I only know of one Scout who is going to be joining this new organization, and that Scout isn't from my unit.

I hope Trail Life becomes a private christian club that no one has ever heard of. There is one Royal Ranger group here and another that I know of 2 counties north. I have met a Royal Ranger, and like the kids from AWANA, he wanted to be a boy scout, but his parents religious views prevented it. I think that like Royal Rangers, Trail Life may become a holding tank for the wing-nuts; which gives us the opportunity to identify and avoid them.

As I wrote in the now missing thread, my belief is that their reason for leaving and creating their own group was not really about gays, but about non-sectarianism. The vote was the signal that their 20 year quest to turn the BSA into a conservative Christians first club (anyone can join, as long as they recognize that non-conservative Christians are second class members) had failed. I've been reading the forums on OnMyHonor.org and now the new web site, and the gay question is definitely secondary to the religion question. At least for most of the forum posters. Given what some of those posters had wrote (why we need to keep the dirty Muslims out, or why we shouldn't allow Jews), I'm glad those particular posters are leaving. And the lack of "I disagree" posts in response was disturbing (there were a few). But these were just forum posters, not arguments from the founders. I just hope it doesn't reflect the attitudes of the general membership. I personally think it was discussions like this, that became one of the reasons they deleted the old forums when they launched.

 

As for the new organization as a whole, I wish them well. There is plenty of room in this world for good youth groups!

Diversity? In Scouting? Where???? (We need to know so we can put a stop to that!)

If by "ticket" you are referring to Wood Badge, then no, I didn't see real diversity or diversity training. The diversity section of my WB course said to include multiple GENERATIONS, not colors, ethnicity, religions, etc. There was small mention of interacting with "other" socioeconomic groups as well (A.K.A. the poor) but not to much interaction, the poverty could rub off! The LDS hold their own events so as not to mix with the others, because they aren't "real Christians" you know. Of course the protestants don't want to mix with the Catholics because they aren't "real Christians" either and everyone hates the Methodists; they may as well be devil worshipers.

If I take my son and my father fishing on the same day sure we have multiple generations, but seeing as we're all middle-class white guys with the same religious views; I wouldn't necessarily call it diversity.

I'm happy their gone, I just wish they'd take a few more with them.

I honestly think at this point the gay issue was an excuse for some people to get out of the BSA and start their own organization. I only know of one Scout who is going to be joining this new organization, and that Scout isn't from my unit.

This particular troop only allowed boys in if they were Catholic and attended the local Catholic school. If your parents couldn't afford to send you to the Catholic school, you family wasn't "Catholic Enough" to join the troop. Their former SM was a good friend of mine and was recently kicked out of the troop & KofC because he wasn't "Catholic Enough" either. (This was a man who double-fisted his rosary's' and attended Mass multiple times a week.) The issue was that he was dating a woman who was open about not being christian and had no intention of converting; they say it as "poor judgement" on his part.

I can only hope Trail Life will go the way of the Royal Rangers.

Nice rant but what's your point....

 

Pervs will be pervs all we can do is follow YP guidelines and train our boys recognize it and report it.

 

I can control and report what I see......I will make sure my little slice of pie runs as it should.

 

Exactly! The YP guidelines keep those of us who aren't pervs out of being falsely accused. Nothing will stop the pervs but vigilance, by the leaders and the boys. We have a local lawyer (also a scout leader) who specializes in sexual abuse to talk to our scouts about once a year. He discusses one major aspect of protection a year. Like you, I keep my eyes and ears open, and thankfully, I haven't noticed anything predatory. If I do, I will have no problems reporting it.

The Archery guy would ask 11 yr old Scouts to stay behind to help find arrows after classes. They would be alone, just him and the little Scout. There were multiple instances where I would get back to camp from a shower and ask where some boy was off to, only to learn that a staff member had stopped by camp and gone off alone with the lad, leaving me to track them down, often in the woods well after dark. The Camp Director was unconcerned, which left me very concerned. I reported this to council and was labeled a trouble maker for my efforts.

Now there are 4 more coming forward; granted for them the abuse was awhile ago, but when you think how hard it is to get the YP guidelines enforced; I'm betting it's still happening. Think of the statistics for women; I read somewhere that 1 in 4 women are raped, but very few actually report it and that's after years of the feminist movement telling them to come forward. How much harder would it be for a young lad to come forward??? Far more difficult I would bet.

Before you go to the trouble of starting a new unit have a couple of outings....been there done that....our problem has been that the young ladies like the idea not the actual experience. Our crew has folded twice in four years because of it.....the last was because we wouldn't let the couples welllllllll couple....tent together and have a romantic evening by the camp fire.

My niece runs her own trap line every year and can out "boy scout" both my son's. I think comments like BD's are just the rantings of an insecure man. Sure there are girls who like the mall, but they don't join scouts. They are boys who like the mall too and they don't join scouts either. To proclaim that someone wouldn't like camping based solely on their gender is just plain silly.

All this makes me wonder if people who hold paid BSA positions shouldn't be required to undergo psychological evaluations and testing before being offered a job.

 

Two things you have to ask yourself:

1. Who pays for the testing?

2. Will it be reliable? It's one thing to screen folks for routine 1-on-1 contact. But there should be no 1-on-1 contact in the BSA! Is there a test that will find the guy/gal who will violate the 1-on-1 principle? Can you identify the person who will assault their colleague before the do it?

Granted perverts will be drawn to where-ever there are kids, the problem seems to be that the higher-up mucky-mucks don't investigate allegations of abuse, they'd rather hide it. Those are the guys who need to be tested to see if they can make ethical decisions. When a kid comes forward and says he was abused you should have the balls to confront it and protect the kid, not try to hid the incident and keep it out of the media for the sake of "protecting BSA's Brand name!"

Nice rant but what's your point....

 

Pervs will be pervs all we can do is follow YP guidelines and train our boys recognize it and report it.

 

I can control and report what I see......I will make sure my little slice of pie runs as it should.

 

Exactly! The YP guidelines keep those of us who aren't pervs out of being falsely accused. Nothing will stop the pervs but vigilance, by the leaders and the boys. We have a local lawyer (also a scout leader) who specializes in sexual abuse to talk to our scouts about once a year. He discusses one major aspect of protection a year. Like you, I keep my eyes and ears open, and thankfully, I haven't noticed anything predatory. If I do, I will have no problems reporting it.