NeverAnEagle

I draw the line at Webelos. But Siberian Tigers, White Tigers, Gray Wolf, Black Bear, Grizzly Bear are OK for patrol names and flags. Just not patrol patches. IMHO

Why not? If you have an embroider in the area you can have anything you want on you patch. Now that my little one is in Boy Scouts, his Patrol is the Phoenix. You can't find that at the scout store, but they have blank patches you can take to the embroidery shop.

I'd vote, but "The poll is expired."

 

Patrols mean more than just groupings, there is a sense/expectation of independence. Unless your den leaders are willing to step back and your den chiefs willing to step up, you have nothing close to a "real patrol." Patrolling is not really competing (although in a troop, patrol leaders should be reporting about their patrols exploits -- and sometimes foibles -- with a little personal pride) but accomplishing the task of exploring our nation with modest supervision.

 

For the sake of mere competitions, different den numbers should do. Then the balance is simply one of figuring out which things the dens need to do separate (typically, the instructional periods), the wolves can do together (typically service projects or outings), which ones can be Den 1 vs. Den 2 (typically skill improvement or sports), and which ones as part of the rest of the pack (songs, skits, etc ...).

 

Also, keep in mind at that age increasing the "competition factor" can make a boy resent being separated from his buddies even more, so step carefully on that one.

 

I understand what you are saying.

I think rather than 1 & 2 I might go with Red Wolves & Grey Wolves. This way they can make a Den Flag, etc. and have something visible to relate to instead of just a number.

As for competition causing resentment, I disagree with that. I'm of the belief that competition is healthy for growth. (Just my humble opinion)

My oldest child was in the "Road Runners" Den. This was because most of the boys had an older brother in they coyotes den. They even had a den cheer, "There are no coyotes here, we chased them all away! We are the Road Runners, get out of our way! Beep, Beep!"

 

My youngest boy was a member of the Vampire Bats den. Their cheer was, "We fly through the night 'til the morning light, Wahahahahah!"

 

I loved having dens use the patrol patches, gave them a sense of unity. It always took one whole den meeting for them to choose a den name and another meeting to come up with a cheer, but they always had a cheer on hand for any cub activities that happened over the 5 years they were cubs.

Heard one of my state's Representatives on the radio this morning saying that he often goes to the Jefferson Memorial at night to do his reading. He says they have 3 staff people at most on site. They had 7 guards turning people away. Figure that one out. It's Obama's punitive political theatre. It's like a little kid with a scratch flailing on the floor and wailing that his arm is cut off.

Jblake: The news letter for the DNC is call "Kicking A$$." One of the major differences between the two parties is a sense of humor.

It's not just the youth; a lot of the adults have been mislead as well. The Sad part is that most adults don't care to check the facts. I have met people who send their kids to private school because they don't like the way the public schools are run. One of the biggest grips about public schools is that the kids aren't allowed to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in the morning. That statement is completely false. Kids in public schools are required to stand quietly while the pledge is recited every morning; they are free to join in if they wish and most do. Just because a kid is not required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't mean they are prohibited from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I've even invited the jerk to come to any public school in the district with me to watch; yet they won't come.

After years of claiming they want the Government to operate more like a private corporation the Republicans have finally succeeded. During hard times they have shut-down; Employees were laid off. And thanks to the provision that everyone else will have to work without pay government employees who still have jobs now qualify for welfare because their households now live in poverty despite the fact that they are working; just like their counterparts employed at Wal~Mart. Congratulations! I can't imagine many states will be happy about picking up the tab and having to provide the same benefits to government employees that they have been forced to provide to other low-income households that are employed by major corporations. If Major corporations actually paid taxes, the government might have the money to keep their doors open, but why expect a corporation to contribute to society? And now that the Republicans have gotten their wish of government acting like a corporation there is no reason for the government to act responsibly and contribute to society either. ​http://www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/CorporateTaxDodgersReport.pdf

You do not have to worry about the government shutting down. The President and the Congressmen are still going to get their salary!

NJCubScouter: Could be a local deal for the Courts. Maybe limited funding from fee's etc. are why the clerks are working, but the lawyers aren't?

 

In the Pacific Northwest the Bonneville Power Administration managed to have carry over funds from last year and are using those to keep their employees on the job, at least for a little while. Other agencies are not so lucky.

 

I was still in college when the shut-down happened under Clinton, so I can't offer any comparisons.

National Forest offices are closed but the trails are still available. Put away the tent shelters, dutch ovens, and Winnebagos. Pick up a backpack and do some real outdoor adventure. As for the closed parks, nice - the wildlife can use a 'breather'.

There have always been people willing to go around a gate. I don't mind if you go on foot, but around here there are places where there are "roads" around the gate made by 4 wheelers and sometimes expanded enough to get a truck around. If you are planning a trip behind a gated area please be considerate, go on foot, and don't leave a path big enough for motorized vehicles to pass.

When I got married (to a good Catholic girl ), the priest wanted to know where she was baptized (what church) and when. I asked him if he needed that information from me and he paused for a second and then politely replied - you are Christian, correct? I replied in the affirmative and that is all they needed to know. Major point - I was either Catholic or "other." Hey, I knew what I was getting into.

I've always figured Jesus's birth should be celebrated on April 15th, since that is Tax Day and Joseph & Mary were traveling to pay their taxes!

 

Historically and Agriculturally the date of May 20th makes a lot of sense. The shepherds were in the field watching their flocks by night, which would mean warm weather. If it were the dead of winter the flocks would be held in the fold. Ewe's lamb in March/April so that would place the date in the spring, rather than summer or fall.

 

The Greek holiday of Saturnalia was held from December 17 through December 23. It was a festival of light leading to the winter solstice. Later Roman Empire moved the "Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun," to December 25. Because being closer to the equator were not able to accurately time the solstice until the sun began to return. Northern Religions of the Celts and Germans place Yule (birth of the Sun) on December 21st because their astronomers were better able to predict the sun's final decent.

Must be a bummer to be formally labelled as "non-essential" in your job.

Non-essential means no one will die if I don't show up.

 

Timber sales on National Forest land have stopped; if you asked a mill owner he'd say the guy who authorizes the sale is essential, yet no one dies if the foresters don't go to work, hence they are not working right now.

 

Ironically the USDA labeled food inspectors non-essential, so don't eat any eggs or spinach as there is no one to watch for Salmonella or ecoli. I guess they are letting the private health care sector worry about the "you might die" bit.

My son did not have an eagle coach or eagle advisor. We saw them mentioned in the stack of paperwork he had to fill out, but it was a PIA just to track down the person who is supposed to sing off so he can start, let alone try to find anyone else. The man who signed the OK for my son's project didn't even read the proposal.

 

I've always wondered how a boy could earn his eagle by completing a project that the city didn't want, didn't approve, and ultimately removed; now I understand exactly how that happens; there isn't anyone to actually help the lads!

BD: Exactly what kind of leadership is a boy demonstrating when he willfully disobeys city ordnances?

 

There are only 32,000 people in the entire county, maybe 12,000 in town. Everyone knew about what was happening with the school. When the school wanted to expand from 1st thru 6th to PreK thru 8th all the surrounding neighbors were up in arms because there was no parking and they were tired of being blocked in their driveways every morning and afternoon and things got really crazy when there were school events. A condition of expanding the building was that they put in a parking lot. The parking lot was put in, but they tore out the sidewalk in the process, then fenced it off so cars couldn't actually park there. (They put in 2 sets of basketball nets though.)

 

City ordinances require a sidewalk along the street for all buildings. The legal case was in the paper almost daily because the neighbors were threatening to file suit if the city didn't. The School untimely lost the issue of the sidewalk because you have to follow the ordinance, but won on the parking lot because the condition was that they install a parking lot, which they did. There was no condition that the parking lot had to be accessible to cars.

 

There should be someone to read the proposal and make sure that the kids are following the local laws. When my kid was working on his project all that fell to me. I was the one to tell him he needed to attend city council meetings, library board meetings, and planning and zoning meetings; Kids don't think of those things on their own.

You do not have to worry about the government shutting down. The President and the Congressmen are still going to get their salary!

The court system continues to operate because they receive funding in the form of fines and fees, which have no bearing on whether or not the government is operating. The same is true of the Postal Service (money comes in from stamps, etc.). If the agency has outside funding they are able continuing to operate.

Females can sleep in the same area as males.. Hueymungus is wrong on that, perhaps it's a policy of his pack/troop.. If you had only a mother as a legal guardian she is fine sleeping with her child, IN THE SAME AREA as the rest of the Webelos..

 

But.. unmarried couples can not sleep in the same tent during any scouting event, period.. And - only legal guardians can sleep with a youth, period.. So you have two issues that would get you in trouble.. I know these are BSA rules, but I could not tell you were the rule is in writing. This is the closest I came.. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...GSS/gss01.aspx

go down to the section titled "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings" look at # 8... Also look at # 11..

 

#8 ,, Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. Married couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are available.

 

#11,,When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian.

 

I have never heard the G2SS stating "parent or guardian MUST sleep in the tent with the scout.. just the one in #11.. So there is no problem with 2 or 3 scouts sleeping in one tent, but then unless they are all brothers, NO parents can sleep in the same tent, because although they are guardian to one of the boys, they are not guardian to all of the boys.. But even if the scout was in another tent with other scouts.. Still boyfriend/girlfriend could not tent together.. Yes it says leaders.. But even if neither are registered scouters, any adult on the campout is an adult leader.. This rule apply to anyone on the campout.. So father/son in one tent and girlfriend in a seprate tent.. Or scout in with other youth, but father/girlfriend still in individual tents themselves.. updated this, because I forgot to mention that if someone other then a parent/guardian comes on the trip to be a scouts adult representation.. That is fine, but they would not be able to sleep in the same tent.. So if an uncle came camping in place of the parents, he maybe is the temporary guardian for the weekend, but he is not legally the permanent guardian, so they tent separately.

 

But the women can be in the same campsite, seriously their cooties will wash off.

 

Thems the rules...

Our Council does not allow parents to share sleeping quarters with Scouts. I worked as camp Staff one year and was told that my boys couldn't share the cabin I was assigned, they had to set up a tent next to the cabin so I could keep an eye on them.

A few things I don't understand;

 

A) Mom is on her 3rd marriage; has 2 kids from hubby #1, 1 kid from hubby #2, and is 8 months pregnant by Hubby #3 (They have been married a whopping 3 months.) The new Dad is on his second marriage; he also has 2 kids from wife #1, but has 1 kid from the mistress that resulted in the divorce from wife #1, and the current woman is expecting, per above. This couple gets to share a tent because BSA has decided that married=morally good???

 

B) Mom and Dad have been together for 20 years and have produced four beautiful offspring. They have never had any other relationships, affairs, etc. They have chosen not to get married and often joke that they have been living in sin so long that Satan has given them their own zip code. This couple can not share a tent because BSA has decided not married = not moral???

 

C) Jake and Dan are not married because it's not legal in their state, but they have been together for 15 years; 11 years ago the adopted their son Jimmy. This couple, while not married can share a tent because they are the same gender????

When I got married (to a good Catholic girl ), the priest wanted to know where she was baptized (what church) and when. I asked him if he needed that information from me and he paused for a second and then politely replied - you are Christian, correct? I replied in the affirmative and that is all they needed to know. Major point - I was either Catholic or "other." Hey, I knew what I was getting into.

Ironically, the word Pagan as used by the Romans meant people who worshiped outside, rather than in the temples. I laugh every Easter when Christian get up very early to attend a Sun Rise Service somewhere out of doors; nothing like a Pagan Ceremony to start the day!

You do not have to worry about the government shutting down. The President and the Congressmen are still going to get their salary!

NJCub: If you are deemed "unessential" you do not work AND you do not get paid. I work for the Department of Commerce, we aren't essential, so no work=no pay. My Mom works for the Corp of Engineers, their non-essential employees were sent home this morning (resource rangers, environment quality people, tour guides, etc); the guys how actually run the dam are working and so are security personnel, but they are not getting paid. Right now there are no provisions for them to receive back pay. Congress would have to pass legislation that would authorize them to receive pay for work performed during the government shut-down, and congress it's likely to be passing anything. The only people I know of who will continue to receive pay are Congress themselves.

You do not have to worry about the government shutting down. The President and the Congressmen are still going to get their salary!

Well, as a Federal Employee, I'm not getting my salary!

 

It's hitting us hard. It's rural here and with the Forest Service, USDA, and Corp of Engineers shut down there are a lot of people out of work in town today.

My son did not have an eagle coach or eagle advisor. We saw them mentioned in the stack of paperwork he had to fill out, but it was a PIA just to track down the person who is supposed to sing off so he can start, let alone try to find anyone else. The man who signed the OK for my son's project didn't even read the proposal.

 

I've always wondered how a boy could earn his eagle by completing a project that the city didn't want, didn't approve, and ultimately removed; now I understand exactly how that happens; there isn't anyone to actually help the lads!

The Eagle Project in question was in the right of way along a city street. The local Catholic School tore out the sidewalk when putting in a new parking lot and fence around the playground. The City told them that the sidewalk had to be replaced. The Catholic School refused to replace the sidewalk because they didn't want public school kids (public school two blocks away) walking on the same side of the street as the Catholic School kids. While the city and the school were engaged in a legal battle a kid from the Catholic troop planted rose bushes where the sidewalk was supposed to be. When the city ultimately won, the roses were pulled out and the sidewalk put back in.

 

This was not the first time an Eagle project was used to deliberately go against city and county ordinances.

It's not an option. Jewish law prohibits establishing a new structure during the Sabbath. So the tent needs to be up before Shabbat starts. Can't cook on the Sabbath, food has to be cooked before hand (or started just before and left to cook overnight, which is how our lunch is made. We have the gear to do it, and the plans on how to do it. The Jewish Committee is planning adult training to take place during our Kinnus (Jewish Campout, Hebrew for gathering), so we can get people trained during Sunday (and some training that is more discussion based can take place on Saturday).

 

The rule is pretty unbendable in Jewish law. So you have to get the sites up. It also meant we couldn't repair guy lines that kids tripped on, so we got docked points at camporee, oh well.

I'd be interested to see how you do overnight cooking. That just sounds like fun. (I'd be afraid that everything would end up over cooked or dry out.)

I guess some people have stated frustration with them packing up Saturday night. This does seem small minded.. With most of our District camporees nothing happens on Sunday anyway.. Eat breakfast, pack up your gear and leave. All the activities fall on Saturday (except a recent one that had the activities in the dark, so events started at 9 or 10pm and the event didn't end until about 2am on Sunday morning.)

 

As for people bemoaning LDS not finding ways to socialize outside of their own group.. It might not be the right way to say "Hey we want the pleasure of your company".. But, sometimes after people ask and ask and try to accommodate to make the LDS community feel welcomed, they themselves feel LDS is being the one who is snubbing them, and it just starts turns into complaining about the whole thing.

 

I myself tried to run IOLS trainings that did not run over Sunday in order to accommodate the LDS people.. But, after advertising and promoting and personally calling a representative of each LDS group to let them know about the trainings that were LDS friendly, then having a total of 0 LDS people show up for it, while the other participant number also was small due to it taking two separate weekends instead of one.. It was scrubbed, and we don't do it anymore. This year our summer camp added the IOLS training to their summer camp program for adult training.. Hopefully they can get that training there.

 

I wasn't hinting that they be banned from future campouts or anything.. Just curious how unbendable this rule was, and if totally unbendable then what did you do.. I just know that the best laid plans in camping rarely turn out and no matter how hard you try to plan to have daylight to set camp, it seems 9 out of 10 times to not work out.. Maybe other units don't have the religious rulings around not setting up in the dark, but they try not to anyway simply because doing so is a royal PITA..

"I guess some people have stated frustration with them packing up Saturday night. This does seem small minded.. With most of our District camporees nothing happens on Sunday anyway."

 

Sunday is when the mandatory religious service is. The only way to avoid it is to leave Saturday night on the pretense of attending service with your CO. We escape Saturday night with the Mormons just to avoid the Church service on Sunday.

Man y'all would hate my unit. Won't come to an event on Saturday, have to camp over from Friday. We bring our own food, religious services Saturday morning, can't do Scout's own... Campsite construction stops cold 18 minutes before sundown... Yes my district works with us to include us instead of using our differences to excuse bigotry.

Are you Jewish? I've only met one Jewish Scout in my life-time. He offered to pray at a Summer Camp and had to endure taunts of "Hats Off!" because he was wearing that special cap they have. It was the opinion of the surrounding Scouters that he should not be allowed to pray i he wouldn't show the "proper respect" by taking off his hat. I'm betting he never went back to that camp.

 

Glad to hear you found somewhere that will work with your unit.

This last election, we had a Mormon running for President.

 

I very personally observed and personally experienced what happens when Mormons take over an institution, such as BSA, Inc. For backing, I refer to Penn and Teller's ZBullshit! episode which cited the Mormon take-over of BSA in the 1980's.

 

I did not vote for Romney, but it was not because he is a Mormon. Really, there were so very many problems with voting him, Mormonism was the least of my concerns. But still, having seen what an absolutely mess they have made of BSA, how could we ever trust them with the US government?

If they ran the government we wouldn't be in debt, LOL! Heck, we'd have enough surplus to last for three years!

I didn't know they had special underwear. That sounds like golden trivia stuff to me. Not much different than a yarmulke though is it?

 

BD are you talking about hating within the BSA or in the general population? Hating BSA program within LDS, or just plain ole hating them Mormon folk?

 

I've only known a few Mormon. I liked them all very much. Especially the ones that took the time out to explain bits of their religion to me when I had questions.

The magic underwear is refereed to as their "garments" which are more like a shorts set. The men's shorts come down to the knee and have an undershirt that goes with them. (No Idea what the ladies wear.) I do know that they are never to be taken off and that after marriage each spouse is allowed to open the seams in the crotch area to allow for intercourse. The truly devout don't even take them off to bathe.

 

We have LDS haters here too. You find hating where you find people unwilling to learn about each others religions; fear spawns hate.

I could try to come up with a better example but it would be difficult to beat this one....to demonstrate the mess we get into when people and organizations try to poke their noses into the private beliefs (or worse, try to control the beliefs) of others.

 

If the CO for the unit I serve wants to exercise some kind of control over the beliefs of the scouts in this unit, they are free to knock themselves out trying. But it's not in my job description. If BSA wants to continue to wallow in this quagmire, they are free to do that as well but there's nothing that says I have to do the wallowing for them. It's THEIR mess of THEIR making and they can lie in it. If a boy or a leader fills out an application and signs it and if the CO has no objection, I'm sending it up the line. And if the council and BSA want to create controversy and strife by enforcing their 'rules', I'll be glad to step aside and let them take the heat. It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA.

"It's not part of my job to question the beliefs of others and act as an 'enforcer' for BSA."

 

But would you act as an advocate for the child?

BSA has a long history of not following rules, or applying them inappropriately. We do a disservice to the boys when we allow BSA to run rough-shod over their beliefs.

Wouldn't the Boy Scouts encourage a tepid JW to become more devoted to his religion?

Absolutely not! As you can see from some the post here he's not a "real christian" so he shouldn't be welcomed in to the troop period. (Sarcasm intended)

 

Of if we do accept him he should be forced to reject his beliefs and do as all the others do because it makes the "good Christians" feel uncomfortable to know that there are others out there with differing beliefs who might possibly want to be treated with respect. (gasp!)

My son did not have an eagle coach or eagle advisor. We saw them mentioned in the stack of paperwork he had to fill out, but it was a PIA just to track down the person who is supposed to sing off so he can start, let alone try to find anyone else. The man who signed the OK for my son's project didn't even read the proposal.

 

I've always wondered how a boy could earn his eagle by completing a project that the city didn't want, didn't approve, and ultimately removed; now I understand exactly how that happens; there isn't anyone to actually help the lads!