BrentAllen

So, jblake, when exactly does a PL earn the right not be second-guessed in your troop, to not have his power and authority taken away? Is there a special ceremony the troop performs to recognize their achieving this special level? It's obvious from your posts that NSPs haven't earned it, and it's impossible to tell how you would handle the 14-y/o patrol, since you didn't answer my question. All you said was you didn't think they could pull it off, which I find interesting when reading your post on the super-size troop. What if they did pull it off? What would you do? So, 2 questions: 1. What would you do if the 14 y/o patrol pulled off the trip (and don't dance around about some council req. for SM sigs - let's pretend you are in my council that doesn't require it) 2. When does a PL earn the right to over-ride the SM, SPL, and PLC?

I'd have a conference with the Scout, and a separate one with the parents. Get several angles on the story. Let the Scout and parents know the expectations of the new troop they are joining. Find out early if they are going to have objections or issues with the way the troop is run. As we have read in many posts here, a lot of the problems are with the parents, not with the boys.

OK, jblake, a little scenario for you. Your super-size troop goes to camporee. The Beavers, a third-year patrol, doesn't show up at departure time. You ask the SPL where they are. He responds they decided they wanted to go on a hike instead. He tells you they presented the idea at the last PLC, had a map of the route, had departure and return times planned, had arranged transportation, had even completed the Tour Permit. The SPL and PLC saw the hike was within their capabilities, and agreed. (No need to bother the SM, who was off drinking coffee during the PLC, since getting his approval would only take the authority and power away from the boys). The buttons on your shirt are about to burst from the pride swelling in your chest, right? Third year Scouts in a patrol off doing their own thing. No help needed from the adults. No adult approval needed. Patrol-method exactly as you describe. So, you finally ask, "where did they go hiking?" SPL replies, "At Six Flags. They were going to hike the entire park, and ride every ride. The other PLs liked their plan so much, most are planning on doing that instead of going on the backpacking trip we have scheduled next month." So, are you ok with that, or are you suddenly a big fan of SM approval for patrol trips?

Man, it is getting a bit thick in here. Let's see, the pure-as-the-driven-snow Beavah has laid down another decree - so let it be said, so let it be done! And yet, just yesterday, he posted these very words about me: "And sometimes it's downright funny, eh, when the accuser doesn't seem to really understand the BSA program themselves!" I'd say that is, how did you label it, "in all of its permutations". Can you really not see in the mirror, or do you see it and just ignore it? I think I'll go outside for some fresh air.

jblake, what if I wrote that patrols are the building blocks of a troop, instead of "the patrol is the most important unit in Scouting.... inside a Troop." Would you still consider that to be a troop-led statement as well? To me, those statements mean the same thing.

"Yah, sure, BA. Easiest and fastest one for me to grab is da SPL Handbook, starting on page 86." (BTW, your accent is starting to sound like Mr. Crabs on Spongebob) :-) Well, gee, there Beaver, your SPL HB must be much different from mine, because I can't find anything you mentioned on page 86. I see "Have a Good Attitude" and "Act With Maturity" and "Be Organized" "And for that, yeh should look at da SPL Handbook, where those things are explained startin' on page 26. They're also part of the SM's first discussion with new youth leader in the TLT syllabus." Again, you must have a much different book than mine. I see Methods described, but no Mission or Aims. I do see on page 30 the Note on Patrol Outdoor Activities that I quoted. Let me guess - yours doesn't have that, right? TLT? Nope, not in there either. I have yet to see ""persuasion/consensus". "A SM is not running the BSA program when he allows two events on the same weekend (a patrol trip and a troop camporee)?!" Maybe you should read my post more carefully. I didn't say it couldn't be done - I said it had to have SM approval, and it couldn't interefer with a troop activity. Interefere would mean the SM needs them at the campout, and they decide they want to go elsewhere. If they aren't needed at the campout, the SM can give his blessing and off they go. According to jblake, the PL trumps the SPL and SM. "...what should he (SM) do. NOTHING." "Why is the SM even involved in this process?" I don't see how that can be interpreted to mean the SM gave his blessing, or it even mattered if the PL trip would interefere with the troop's. He's saying the SM shouldn't even have a say in it!! And that CLEARLY is NOT the BSA program. The BSA program does not allow the PL to trump the SPL and SM. That is my point - get it?? You answer the question for me Beaver, does the PL trump the SM? He can run his troop however he wants. I'm not trying to get him to change the way he runs his troop. I wish him much success with his new troop and his soon-to-be new Scouts. Just don't claim it is the BSA way, and the rest of us are wrong, running adult-led troops.

Beavah writes: "Da list is from a combination of BSA materials, WB21C, TLT, and the PL and SPL handbooks, eh? The order is presented the same way in all of 'em, with "coaching" second on the list because it's an adult-directed style one step removed from telling (da follower is unskilled, but you have time to coach rather than just instruct)." Could you be more specific? Maybe some page numbers? I'm having trouble locating those terms, and that order. When I look in the PL and SPL handbooks, I see EDGE. When I look in the WB syllabus, I see EDGE. When I turn to page 306 of the current WB syllabus, I read "The key concept that separates "coaching" from other leadership styles is letting go and enabling success." That sure sounds like Guiding to me. I would like to see the material that leads you to believe coaching is something different. I dare say your definition is not in sync with current BSA program materials. I'd also like to read more about the "persuasion/consensus" style.

jblake answered: "Just like the post that asked the question if the Troop is going to go to one activity and a patrol wants to do something else, what should he do. NOTHING. The troop can do it's thingy and the patrol with no adult leadership and with the BSA blessings can go off and do their own activity. Why is the SM even involved in this process? It's because we as adults like to run the show and when we do, we cheat our boys out of an opportunity to learn leadership. Plain and simple. I'm looking forward to the day my scouts come up and say, "We're too bored to go out on the camporee for the umpteenth time. We're going geo-cacheing instead that weekend. The other PL's are doing a great job and they are in good hands." My first reaction would be how many ASM's can I convince to go to the camporee so I can go geo-cacheing with the older boys. " Which just proved my point that he does not operate his troop under the BSA program. Yes, patrols can go do their own thing, as long as they follow two rules: 1. The SM approves the patrol activity 2. The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function. These are not Brent Allen's rules and program, these are the BSA's. If you don't believe me, turn to page 22 in your SM Handbook and read the quote I just typed. Yes, the patrol is the most important unit in Scouting.... inside a Troop. Patrols function inside of, and as a part of a troop. Patrols cannot get chartered, only troops can. Patrol activities do not trump troop activities. A SM can give his blessing on a patrol activity, but it must be obtained. According to jblake, the SM wouldn't have any say in the matter. Requiring SM approval does not make a unit adult-led. Boy-run, boy-lead can certainly operate in the BSA program, where a troop is made up of strong patrols. So, what do the SM and adults do, what are their responsibilities? To see that the Methods are used to meet the Aims and Mission. The BS Handbook, PL Handbook, and the SPL Handbook do not explain the Methods, Aims or Mission. The boys don't know what these are. Somehow, in jblake's troop, the boys are taking care of all this while the SM is off drinking coffee. More power to you! The Patrol Method is just one of the eight Methods. Adult Association is just as important. The relationship between the SM and SPL should be one of open communication and mutual admiration. They should be working together as a team, with the SM mentoring and coaching the SPL. jblake may run very good troops. I have no idea, since I have never seen them. I stand by my statement that he doesn't operate them under the BSA program.

The Troop I left had over 70 boys registered. Around 35 - 40 would show for meetings, and we had 50 go to Summer Camp. They would argue until they are blue in the face that they are boy-run, boy-lead. Sadly, that is simply not the case, and that is the main reason we left. A program can be more like a social camping club and serve a large number of boys. Size is not an indicator of a boy-run, boy-lead troop. I know this first-hand. They had not patrol identity whatsoever. I have one question: If a Troop had a camping trip planned, say backpacking, and one of the patrols had planned to go camping at a local state park that same weekend, what should happen?(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Beavah, Where did you come up with that list, and who put it in order? How did "Coaching" end up where it did? The key concept that separates "coaching" from other leadership styles is letting go and enabling success. In my view, Bob is Guiding/Coaching his SPL in preparing to depart the cabin camping trip, exactly as he should. He is discussing a plan and a process, allowing the SPL to figure out any missing steps. He is ready to Demonstrate if needed, and he then Enables the SPL to do his job. OTOH, if jblake is standing there beside a Scout and "observes" the stove needs cleaning, he has just told/"directed" that Scout to clean the stove, in so many words - the Scout even recognizes this, and asks why he is always being picked on. This is not coaching while discussing a plan or a process, this is giving the Scout a specific task that needs to be done, which is about as Directive as you can get. I don't expect jblake to follow the BSA Leadership Styles, because I don't think he follows the BSA program. If he did, he would have made that observation to the SPL, instead of another Scout. (This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Our camp offers two choices for patrol cooking - cook their menu and their food, or plan and bring your own. When using their menu and food, they keep it stored. When bringing your own, they may offer refigeration space, but I'm not sure. I will find out Wednesday at our SC Kick-off meeting. If we bring and store our own, the camp sells bagged ice. Frozen two-liter bottles also work well and aren't as messy. High-quality coolers make all the difference when camping for a week. freeze the items you are going to use later in the week. As for clean-up, we just follow the 3-pan system outlined in the BS Handbook (pgs. 281-283). We do this on our weekend campouts as well. Once they learn it properly, it takes very little time. The trick is plates, pots, utensils need to be wiped very clean before they go in the first pot (hot water with a few drops soap). Bagged trash can be carried to dumpsters at any time. The other trick is to get the water on the stove right after cooking is completed, before everyone sits down to eat. If they wait to start heating the water until they are done eating, they will burn a lot of time sitting around waiting for it to heat up. For non-backpacking trips, we use 3 Rubbermaid-type dishpans, 12 qt, about 15 x 12 x 6. They stack together and don't take up much room. Each Scout cleans their own personal items, and all help with the pots and pans, as described. The Scouts assigned to KP duty are responsible for getting the 3 pans ready, and making sure everything does get cleaned.

At our camp, there are 4 1-hour sessions in the morning, starting at 8:30 am, and ending at 12:30. Lunch is served at 12:45. After lunch, the camp has "Activity Periods" that run for 1 1/2 hours, starting at 2:00 and end at 5:00 pm. Dinner is served at 6:00 pm. The evening Activity Period begins at 7:00 pm and runs for 1 1/2 hours. If Reveille is at 7:00 pm, Scouts have 1 hour and 15 minutes to prepare breakfast and eat. That shouldn't be a problem for a Patrol that is experienced in cooking. If it takes more time than that, they need more practice - and what better place than at Summer Camp! Pre-cooked bacon, scrambled eggs, fruit, grits, oat meal, bread - how long does it take to prepare that? The grits and oat meal only take boiling water. Lunch is the same way, and should take even less time. Most people want a cold lunch during the hot summer months, so it should take very little prep time, and also very little clean up time. Dinner can take a little longer, and that is fine. Most of our boys didn't do anything in the evening period, so there isn't a time crunch to get supper prepared and served. Dinner in the Dining Hall was probably the least popular with the boys. A lot of food went into the trash. Instead of getting the Mystery Meat of the Day, they can plan what they want - something they will actually like! The benefits of patrol camping are huge. The patrols get to spend a lot more time together, and they get to learn how to be pretty efficient cooks, if they aren't already. Most lessons are learned through repetition, and I don't think cooking is any different. The boys don't get to do that much cooking on a weekend campout, and they have a whole month to forget what they learned! If meal time is taking too long, I suggest your Scouts need to spend MORE time cooking, not LESS, and Summer Camp is the perfect opportunity! The lessons learned will pay big dividends on your monthly campouts - better meals, prepared more efficiently and more smoothly.

"TR was more like Gore than either of them." Oh, puuuullllleeeeezzzzzzz!!!! TR tried to sell the greatest fraud in the history of mankind to our people, and to the world??? Remember, Bush's home in Crawford is a much more eco-friendly house than that energy-hog the Gore's live in. The Greenies declared that, not me. Yes, you know us Republicans - we hate clean air and clean water! Hey Lisa, it's 17 degrees here this morning (where is that global warming when you need it?) and we are going camping! Well, we are going caving, and spending the night in the cave. A cool 58 degrees in there, brrrr! :-)

Hmmmm, I thought it was Roosevelt - the Republican one - that did so much for conservation. "When he became President in 1901, Roosevelt pursued this interest in natural history by establishing the first 51 Bird Reserves, 4 Game Preserves, and 150 National Forests. He also established the U.S. Forest Service, signed into law the creation of 5 National Parks, and signed the 1906 Antiquities Act under which he proclaimed 18 national monuments. The area of the United States placed under public protection by Theodore Roosevelt totals approximately 230,000,000 acres. Theodore Roosevelt was this nation's 26th President and is considered by many to be our "Conservationist President". Here in the North Dakota badlands, where many of his personal concerns first gave rise to his later environmental efforts, Roosevelt is remembered with a national park that bears his name and honors the memory of this great conservationist. Roosevelt is also represented on Mt. Rushmore (SD). Two of his homes are part of the National Park Service: Theodore Roosevelt Birthplace National Historic Site (NY) and Sagamore Hill National Historic Site (NY), as well as the site where he was sworn in as president (Theodore Roosevelt Inaugural National Historic Site in Buffalo, NY) and a park in Washington D.C. (Theodore Roosevelt Island). " Source: http://www.nps.gov/archive/thro/tr_cons.htm Hey RangerT, am I reading that correctly - the agency you work for, the NPS, labels a Republican as the "Conservationist President"? I'm curious which Democrat President(s) have set aside more land and preserved more natural resources? It's nice to have a long-time NPS Ranger here to ask these questions to.

Cooking isn't the only part of Scouting that really employs the Patrol Method, but it is probably the strongest. The boys have to come together as a team to get the job done, with everyone playing their part. The "stronger" Scout can still cover for the "weaker" Scout, but it is harder to do than in most endeavors (games, competitions, etc.). They only have a certain amount of time to accomplish the task, they have an objective that must be completed, they have immediate feedback about how they performed (is it edible?). I am a firm believer that a group must be put into a pressure cooker to coax them into turning into a team. Without pressure, the group will never get beyond Forming. They will wonder around aimlessly, each going their own way, never coming together to seek a common goal. The pressure cooker brings on Storming, and hopefully leads to Norming and Performing. Patrol cooking is a great way to put that group of boys into the pressure cooker 3 times a day, all the while accomplishing a very needy and important task - eating well at camp, as opposed to some game or task the boys might not find either needy or important (and thus not care and not give their best effort). They don't have much of a choice when it comes to playing the cooking game - you play and win, or you go hungry. Many days I think Kudu has forgotten to take his medication, but I think this type of activity is what he (and B-P) was thinking of when they say learning comes from within. Each Scout soon realizes he must learn the skills of cooking, and must carry his own weight if he wants to eat well. Going to the Dining Hall accomplishes very little in the way of teaching and instilling the Patrol Method, at least as far as I can see. I don't understand why so many Troops give up this fantastic opportunity to teach the Patrol Method at Summer Camp, just in order to get quicker meals. Add in all the advancement and MB requirements that can be learned, and it really makes one scratch their head. We discussed the options for this coming summer at a Troop meeting in December. We talked about how many meals in the Dining Hall the boys really didn't like. We talked about waiting in line. We talked about all the opportunities for requirements they missed out on by eating in the Dining Hall. We talked about the ability to plan their own meals and to learn to cook them. After very carefull consideration, the boys decided they want to do their own cooking this summer instead of eating in the Dining Hall - very much to my delight! It is going to be a lot of work, but I can't wait!

Anonymous posters, please note... :-) Annoying someone via the Internet is now a federal crime. It's no joke. Last Thursday, President Bush signed into law a prohibition on posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying e-mail messages without disclosing your true identity. In other words, it's OK to flame someone on a mailing list or in a blog as long as you do it under your real name. Thank Congress for small favors, I guess. This ridiculous prohibition, which would likely imperil much of Usenet, is buried in the so-called Violence Against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act. Criminal penalties include stiff fines and two years in prison. "The use of the word 'annoy' is particularly problematic," says Marv Johnson, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. "What's annoying to one person may not be annoying to someone else." Buried deep in the new law is Sec. 113, an innocuously titled bit called "Preventing Cyberstalking." It rewrites existing telephone harassment law to prohibit anyone from using the Internet "without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy." To grease the rails for this idea, Sen. Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican, and the section's other sponsors slipped it into an unrelated, must-pass bill to fund the Department of Justice. The plan: to make it politically infeasible for politicians to oppose the measure. The tactic worked. The bill cleared the House of Representatives by voice vote, and the Senate unanimously approved it Dec. 16. There's an interesting side note. An earlier version that the House approved in September had radically different wording. It was reasonable by comparison, and criminalized only using an "interactive computer service" to cause someone "substantial emotional harm." That kind of prohibition might make sense. But why should merely annoying someone be illegal? There are perfectly legitimate reasons to set up a Web site or write something incendiary without telling everyone exactly who you are. Think about it: A woman fired by a manager who demanded sexual favors wants to blog about it without divulging her full name. An aspiring pundit hopes to set up the next Suck.com. A frustrated citizen wants to send e-mail describing corruption in local government without worrying about reprisals. In each of those three cases, someone's probably going to be annoyed. That's enough to make the action a crime. (The Justice Department won't file charges in every case, of course, but trusting prosecutorial discretion is hardly reassuring.) Clinton Fein, a San Francisco resident who runs the Annoy.com site, says a feature permitting visitors to send obnoxious and profane postcards through e-mail could be imperiled. "Who decides what's annoying? That's the ultimate question," Fein said. He added: "If you send an annoying message via the United States Post Office, do you have to reveal your identity?" Fein once sued to overturn part of the Communications Decency Act that outlawed transmitting indecent material "with intent to annoy." But the courts ruled the law applied only to obscene material, so Annoy.com didn't have to worry. "I'm certainly not going to close the site down," Fein said on Friday. "I would fight it on First Amendment grounds." He's right. Our esteemed politicians can't seem to grasp this simple point, but the First Amendment protects our right to write something that annoys someone else. It even shields our right to do it anonymously. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas defended this principle magnificently in a 1995 case involving an Ohio woman who was punished for distributing anonymous political pamphlets. If President Bush truly believed in the principle of limited government (it is in his official bio), he'd realize that the law he signed cannot be squared with the Constitution he swore to uphold. And then he'd repeat what President Clinton did a decade ago when he felt compelled to sign a massive telecommunications law. Clinton realized that the section of the law punishing abortion-related material on the Internet was unconstitutional, and he directed the Justice Department not to enforce it. Bush has the chance to show his respect for what he calls Americans' personal freedoms. Now we'll see if the president rises to the occasion.

Why do I say the Pledge of Allegiance whenever the opportunity presents itself? This is a story I share with our Scouts, especially when they might not be as respectful as they should. I remind our Scouts to remember Mike Christian. The Story of Mike Christian,Vietnam POW The American Flag symbolizes the hope and inspiration that is the essence of everyone and everything in the US. There is another story that epitomizes the emotion and pride every American feels for the flag, and underscores the importance of the Pledge of Allegiance. The Vietnam War . . . 1971, prisoners of war were moved from isolation into large rooms at the Hanoi Hilton. One of those prisoners was Mike Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was thirteen. At seventeen he enlisted in the Navy, later to earn a commission and become a Naval flying officer, and was shot down and captured in 1967. The uniforms the Americans wore were the Vietnamese pajamas, only they were blue, and rubber sandals made of automobile tires. Mike contrived a bamboo needle for himself and collecting some cloth of red and white, he sewed an American Flag on the inside of his shirt. And it was the practice of the prisoners that every afternoon before they got their ration of soup, they would hang Mike's shirt on the wall and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Now, repeating the Pledge of Allegiance may not be the most important part of the average American day, but for those men in that stark prison cell, it was the most important and meaningful event of their day. One day, the Vietnamese searched the cell and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, removed it and him, and for the "benefit" of the other prisoners beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple hours. Then they opened the door and threw him back inside. Mike was not in good shape and the others tried to comfort and take care of him as best they could. The cell had a concrete slab on which the men slept and a naked light bulb in each corner of the room. After things had quieted down for the evening, in the corner of the room, sitting beneath that dimly lit bulb with a piece of white cloth, a piece of red cloth, another blue shirt and his bamboo needle, was Mike Christian. His eyes almost swollen shut from the beating, he was fashioning another American flag. Mike Christian was not making that flag because it made him feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was for his fellow prisoners to be able to pledge allegiance to our Flag and to our country. For Mike Christian, maintaining that Flag was the right thing to do.

Hightower Trail is my District. We have the original FCFY plan posted on our page, so it is in the public domain. Feel free to use it. If you want to see one handsome devil, click on the Photos page at Hightower Trail. :-) That's me in 4 of the 5 pictures for the 2007 Council Banquet, with Warren Martin, a good friend who received his Silver Beaver that night. I'm the one in uniform, on the right.

Bob, No, it is simpler than that. As an example, we run a Scout CPR Saturday a few times a year. The CPR/AED Course is divided up into 4 classes, progressing from #1, which is a video viewing session, to #2, which is working on the Aktars learning and practicing CPR, to #3, learning and practicing AED and FA for choking, and #4, testing. Classes start every 45 minutes. Each class has their own instructors - they stay in place as the groups of participants rotate through. Same thing could be done with Cub Leader. We've never had the courses run over 1 1/2 hours when conducted in a one-day format, but let's go with 2 for an even number. Reduce the Gathering, Opening, Break and Closing from 50 minutes to 15. Registration for all courses is taken care of at the start. Start classes every 2 hours. NLE is #1, Leader Specific is #2, which is divided into the different program groups and leaders. Each class needs 2 trainers, so you are looking at around 10 trainers (we always combine CM and Committee). Our district training team would have no problem fielding 10 trainers for 1 Saturday a year, working from 9 - 5. The trainers would teach their course 3 times that day. When the participant completes training, he goes right into the Scout Shop and buys his uniform, with a 20% discount coupon. Several birds killed in a single day.

For QC and consistency, I would follow the lead of the Red Cross. All of their instruction is now on DVDs. Instructors are trained to be facilitators, to help participants make sure they get the technique right, and to answer questions. The same could be done for much of the BSA training. For Cub Leader training, I would ask each District Training team to volunteer to work one Saturday a year at the Volunteer Service Center to teach the training courses all day. If a Council has at least 12 districts, that would allow a Training Day to be offered once a month. Or maybe not offer it in December, and instead offer 2 Training Days in either September or October, when a lot of new leaders need training. Have several DEs or FDs around for QC and to answer questions. Give new leaders a 20% discount coupon on the cost of their uniform when they complete all of the training components. I'd have to think some more about SM training. Due to the length of the courses, it would take a different approach.

We follow the BSA program. Boys are formed into patrols with the Scoutmaster's direction. Individual circumstances would dictate where the older boy would be placed.

"...but I am reluctant to close them because just because I dont like what is being said..." And I appreciate that very much. Unlike the thread on Adult Patrols that got closed because it brought back bad memories for someone. If that was the case, that person didn't need to read the thread! Thanks for ruining the topic for the rest of us! I've seen plenty of bad moderating, but that one takes the prize! Eamonn, your trophy is on the way. I am the sole moderator on a Highpower Rifle page. In the game of Highpower, competitors spend half the day in the pits, pulling targets for the other half of the competitors. There is plenty of time for conversation, that covers every topic imaginable. I treat threads on the page like they are pit conversations - they roam all over the landscape. These are conversations, not classrooms. Why stifle creativity with narrow blinders? I do think it is polite to spin off new threads when appropriate, something I admit I'm not very good at doing.

Sorry, I couldn't resist stepping outside the choices offered. When I was in Scouts, Thurman Munson was my favorite player. Don't ask me how a catcher for the Yankees became the favorite of a kid in Atlanta - I honestly don't know. I was crushed when he died in the plane crash. If you are ever travelling along I-85 near the Georgia - South Carolina border, a side trip to Royston, GA will put you in the birthplace and home of the Ty Cobb Museum. It is only about 10 miles south of the interstate. They have some very cool items there - very much worth the time to visit. I hear he would take a file and sharpen his spikes in the dugout, done in a manner so that he couldn't be ignored by the opposing SS and 2nd baseman. Laughing all the while.

Shoeless Joe. He holds the distinction of hitting the furthest home run ever hit off my grandfather.

Eamonn, my good friend, much of what you say you don't want to happen, already is! The poor Scout with the burnt offering is going to smell the food from the adult patrol - are they supposed to burn their food too, to make the Scout feel better? Seems I've read in other threads recently that adults cook much better meals, hoping to inspire the boys to do better than pop-tarts and bacon! When I said we do this in WB and SM Training, I meant as participants. We are critters for the rest of our lives, right? The staff models how a Troop should operate. In troops with adult patrols, the adults model how a patrol should operate. Same type of learning by observation. If an adult doesn't end up fitting in as an ASM, he is offered a position on the committee. If you have an adult that just doesn't get it, and doesn't work well with the boys, are you going to let him be an ASM? Why? The Troop Committee is in charge of selecting quality leaders for the troop, and the SM should work closely with them in selecting ASMs. ASMs are full time positions (in our unit, anyway) - it is Assistant, not part-time. Meaning, we expect them to show up at meetings and campouts unless they have a work or family conflict. I have been in a troop where they have lots of ASMs on paper (over 25), but only 2 or 3 show for meetings or campouts, and you never knew which 2 or 3 it would be. They even had to cancel a campout in June due to a lack of adult leadership. This is in a Troop with 65 boys registered, and 71 adults. Sorry, but I'm not going through that. I learned in WB to build a team (patrol) of adults working towards the same goal. If you have a truly effective team of adults working together, why should they not be a patrol? We do also have dads who go camping with us occasionally, but they are not ASMs. The adults do not usually compete against the Scout patrols, but sometimes they do, in good fun. Of course, their score doesn't count. If you have the patrols launching water bottle rockets, do you really think it would be bad for the adults to build one of their own? Will the boys not have fun competing against the adults, win or lose? What about the pride the boys will feel if their rocket performs better than the adults? Adult patrols do not run on the same schedule as the Scout patrols - what is the problem with that? Do some troops have older boy patrols that may have a different schedule on a campout than the younger Scouts? Absolutely! Maybe they are going on a longer, more difficult hike than the others. I've referenced Troop 204 before. Their SM was the CD for the Summer Course. One of their many ASMs was the CD for the Fall Course (these guys are pretty good Scouters). Nearly every leader in the Troop is WB trained. They use an adult patrol, called the Bear Patrol. They elect a PL to serve for a year (which is not the SM - he has other things to do). They make duty rosters and rotate the jobs, just like the boys (so they learn the cooking skills, just like the boys). They have their own Patrol flag as well. Adult leaders are just like the boys in many ways, especially when it comes to voting with their feet. You tell me - who is going to show up more consistently at meetings - an adult who is having a lot of fun with the other leaders, feeling that he is part of a close-knit group, or a leader who is there by himself, trying to find something to do and some way to fit in? You might want to take a look at the Bear Patrol of Troop 204. http://204bsa.com/Bears/bears.htm Do they have fun? You betcha! Yes, sometimes even more fun than the boys. Are you going to tell me that should never be the case? F - could you explain what you mean about the adults playing Boy Scout instead of being a leader? Maybe some specific examples. Just curious.