83Eagle

I haven't been able to upload any photos to our Pack's scoutlander site (I'm the admin). Everything else works fine but I get an I/O error when trying to upload any photo. I've tried different image types and have used different PCs but no luck.

I can't find a reference to the problem through a google search or the site FAQs. I've tried the contact link on the site but no reply yet (it is free, so I do understand support is limited).

Anyone else have this problem, or can shed any light on possible causes?

All the badge books have activities in them involving singing and a lot of them refer to singing at pack meetings. But how many packs do this? My anecodotal observation is, "not too darn many." And our pack has been no exception.

But...I'd like to do this. I'm not afraid to lead the group and I could actually strum passable chords to "Cub Scout Spirit" on the gee-tar if need be. On the other hand, I get that nightmare vision that it's a total disaster. I know, nothing ventured, nothing gained...

So for those packs out there that do incorporate songs at meetings, how do you do it? What works best?

And particularly if you've had sit-on-your-hands pack meetings in the past, how do you get this off the ground and the boys (and parents?) off their seats the first time?

Our first-year Webelos den is floundering. Lost the WDL at the end of last year so the current WDL is new to the role. The Den is now essentially the WDL's son and two other scouts, one of which is brand new. Pretty much no-shows at pack meetings.

As CM I've been trying to "something" to keep this group afloat. Now the first-year WDL is wondering if the two dens can be combined. Second-year Ws have seven in the den, have earned their rank badge, and are finishing up AOL for the most part.

Thoughts?

Ahhh, Feeder Packs. Hopefully someone has mentioned to these boys that they are not restricted to just their "Feeder Troop". They can join ANY Boy Scout Troop they want to.

Yes, but the closest non-feeder Troop is over 50 miles as the crow flies and about 90 minutes drive away. So while it's possible to go to ANY Boy Scout troop, it's not very practical, particularly for 11 year olds whose parents might not want to spend 3 hours every week taking their sons to and from Scout meetings.

Here's an interesting link I found when researching the bell-ringing topic:

http://samidlands.cyberwoven.com/programs/christmas/redkettlecampaign.aspx

About 2/3 of the page down:

"Last year, The Salvation Army and the Boy Scouts Indian Water Council partnered to allow scouts to participate in our Red Kettle Campaign by ringing the bell. Boy Scouts can fulfill requirements for badges and also receive an Official Bell Ringer patch from The Salvation Army. If you are a Scout interested in volunteering, a scout leader or a parent/guardian/grandparent of a scout, please contact....."

Thanks for the answers to the questions posed, which confirms my interpretation of things.

Regarding some of the miscellaneous points brought up--my view is these boys have given 4+ years of effort (and fundraising) to the CS program and we have a close-knit pack. They don't want to miss our year-end activities and parties but they are also anxious to become Boy Scouts. Why not do both and end up with happier boys in the process? So that's just what we'll do.

We have some derbies that happen after the B&G. We've also added several new activities and a winter camp that happen after B&G so the WDL is concerned the boys will be a little bummed if they miss out on all this new stuff (basically, just when the program finally got fun, they're leaving it). But, they're anxious to become Boy Scouts.

On the other hand, there's no reason that the boys can't be invivted back as Boy Scouts, just as with other Boy Scouts. It's just they're not officially Cub Scouts any longer. This might actually benefit the interaction between our Pack and the troop we feed to.

I'm a new CM this year. Previously, our pack would always award AOL and cross Webelos over to Boy Scouts at the final pack meeting of the year in May. This year, the second-year Webelos would like to target their AOL for the B&G in February.

So I have some questions that I can't find addressed in the literature anywhere, unless I missed it:

1. Can a boy earn the AOL and wait to cross over into Boy Scouts? That is, earning the AOL is one way he is eligible to be a Boy Scout, but if the scout or den would prefer to wait until the end of the school year, can they?

2. If a boy does cross over into Boy Scouts as part of earning his AOL as is usually the case, what can/would you do if the boy wants to be part of Pack activities for the remainder of the school year?

We don't do den numbering as we only have enough boys for one den of each.

You have parents complaining about petty stuff and you have parents doing things that defy common sense (the alcohol & scouting events). I have little sympathy for these parents if the facts are as you describe. And yes, we can quibble about the belt loop questions (which I have no problem with--it shows interest and engagement on the part of the DL) and whether the den split could have been handled differently, but what ever happened to a little bit of respect--even, dare I say, deference?--for you and the other people who give freely of their time when others do not.

But most important, again, this stuff is all water over the dam. The dens are split. The cubmobile derby is over. Move forward. Your DL should handle the den he wants to handle and "someone" has to step up to run the other den.

The leaders have to do what makes them comfortable because if they're not happy with things, they are not going to have the positive attitude needed to to run a quality program, and that does a disservice to everyone.

Personally, my response would be if you don't like the way the den is run, put your time, and money, where your mouth is. Get yourself registered, and fully trained, and be a part of the solution.

Hear hear!

The problem is that this would need to come from the DL when they mentioned it to him. Now, it's all water over the dam.

I would not hold a meeting and I would spend ZERO time defending myself. These are all specific situations in the past they are complaining about and not ongoing concerns. (Plus, I'd put money on the fact that none of them would show up to the meeting anyway.)

Some people are never happy and view the world through the prism of negativity. I suspect that these people have a predisposed view of you and are seeing any particular thing you do that they don't like as just more validation of their beliefs about you.

I know it's hard to swallow the bile that comes up with these things, but try to stay focused on the reason you're in the program, which is not them. It is their sons, and yours. Particularly since you will be CM, focus on putting together the best program you can and good things will follow. It may sound a bit polyannish but if you don't have that outlook this kind of stuff can eat you up or get you thinking about jumping ship, as you already are. Find the positive people in your pack and surround yourself with them, and get them to step up to help you. When your pack is running as an enthusiastic and engaging program, these other people will shut up or at least find that nobody outside their own enclave of negativity will listen to them.

The new program delivery encourages badges at B&G. I think this makes sense because that is such a special meeting as it is.

As far as scouts dropping, if you keep an interesting program, this is not an issue. We have outings each month including winter camp in March and tent camp in late May. March is our pinewood, April is the raingutter regatta, and May is our year end pizza party. From March-May is the time to work on electives as well.

Yeah, some kids might not get done, and that's the way it goes. We stress that everyone has a chance to keep working on their badge. I'm not going to hold the bulk of kids back.

Which leads to the last point. If we have a boy who has completed early I discuss the option with him of presentment at the next pack meeting. This happens rarely but did happen this year with a boy who had genuinely worked on requirements over the summer and just finished, doing a better job than the other boys for that matter. But his personal reason for doing so was that he liked the program, and he never considered receiving his badge without the other boys, even though I offered to re-recognize him as part of B&G. So instead he got immediate recognition in the den via his fourth bead.

No matter when you set a target for completing badges, there will be straggler kids and den leaders who are doing things at the last minute. February is PLENTY of time for Tiger thru Bear (not familiar enough yet with Webelos) if you are having 2 den meetings a month, and particularly if you toss in a pack camp in fall where you can target a lot of the outdoor requirements.

You did not come off as snobby and I'm sorry if my reply implied that.

My point being that we consider TKD a "youth sports" program in our household so are comfortable with that. For our daughter, who is not real athletically inclined, it has given her better coordination and confidence.

But seeing the courses, I have no more illusion than she will be able to take on a grown attacker than I do of my son growing up to become an MLB player just because he's in little league now.

Sorry to rehash something that was already discussed; I guess I should have done a search of the forums first.

I have considered taking IOLS but I wanted to do something at this time that would have direct relevance to the ability to take my son's Webelos Den camping next year. So that sent me down the whole WLOT/WELOT/OWL/OLS-W maze.

What I've heard from my district training resource, however, is that there is no "reverse compatibility" from IOLS to WOLT, whereas there is from WOLT to BALOO. So I didn't know if it made sense to even to IOLS, particularly because I'm not sure what my son will be doing when he gets to Boy Scouts, or if I'd even have a role there.

Like everyone else, I have limited time and am trying to make the best training selection, keeping in mind what is required vs. recommended vs. helpful.

I think the fact that the rules refer only to adult supervision leaves things open to different practices.

Regarding WLOT (formerly OWLS...or I've seen that it's called OLS-W now...seems to vary depending on who's putting on the training), can anyone tell me why you would take this if you already have BALOO or capable outdoor skills? I was told by my district training guy that "The WLOT does a bit more training in the Webelos to Scout transition, but as far as outdoor skill has no advantage over BALOO."

Well, I'm all for training but not to put a few days into training that only gives me "a bit" more knowledge.

It seems like the place for WLOT is very undefined. I asked "Why take WLOT" but haven't gotten a reply yet.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

No need to hold the rest of the Den back. In fact, have the Bear scouts who already have their Bobcat badges work with the other scouts and use the experience for Achievement 24a. Some of the Bobcat stuff is designed to be worked on within the family, and as for the rest, the Bears can all use practice on the motto, promise, Law of the Pack, handshake, salute, and sign, and so on. (In fact, in my experience, some of the new scouts were so gung-ho to learn the Bobcat stuff, which we pass out at Roundup, that they could teach the "old" scouts a thing or two at the first meeting!)

However, your new Bear scouts cannot go back and earn badges for years of the program they missed, so they simply start as Bears with the other Bears. They can't earn their Tiger and Wolf badges any more.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

According to my DE, "The boys may help but my not be in uniform as it is not a official boy scout event."

So it looks like we can take an end-run around this if we wish with the official blessing of the district. And I guess if everyone spontaneously decides to wear their uniform for the day, I can't very well tell them to take it off.

All right, I've now put on my flame-retardant suit for the inevitable...

Yeah...but then there's the whole "obedient" thing, and I did promise to obey the rules. I'm not sure if it would be "brave" to defy them or not.

It all has me feeling not very "cheerful."

Interesting...never heard of these. While I'm sure there are some shady "schools" out there it seems that most of the complaints come from the purists who don't believe it can be an activity for youth/families.

Will my daughter be able to defend herself in a street fight when she earns her black belt? Probably not, but her (and my) view of the program has always been that this is a "sport" that she can do. And it costs $250 to put your kid into Pop Warner football, so it seems in line.

So while it's definitely not a McDojo, it's definitely not a purist martial arts program, but then again we don't care and she is happy with it.

The official uniform inspection sheet says that "Units have no option to change" when it comes to wearing the official uniform pants or shorts.

Of course, the mere fact that you are even concerned about this puts you ahead of the majority of uniform wearers out there. Ok, I can't prove "majority" but outside council staff it's the exception around here to see a leader in full uniform.

Aaaargh! I am so sorry that I ever read this thread.

We've been trying to come up with a community service/activity for the holidays. A parent looked into working with the local senior center (small town) but they were not interested (!). Anyhoo, the idea came up of bell-ringing for the SA. Great idea! But a bell also went off in my head...better check on this.

Well, that shoots that idea. Of course, Google "Cub Scouts Salvation Army Bell Ringing" and you'll find it proudly advertised on dozens of Pack calendars. And I'm sure when I break the news to the others they'll say, "Why not? We see this done every year in the area?"

So...I gotta think that this is a rule that's violated more than most others in the program.

I understand the rationale here...the legal types worry about associating Scouting with orgs they can't control so let's throw a blanket over the whole spectrum.

But...Whatever happened to "Do a good turn daily?"

Seriously, sometimes ignorance is bliss. Since becoming CM I've spent more time figuring out "the rules" than working on programs for our boys. And that's a problem.

Baloo is for Pack Camping not webelos camping.

I don't disagree, I'm just saying what I was told...which doesn't appear to be supported by the various rules. This comes on top of other interpretations that may or may not be right and were hashed out in other threads.

Sometimes I think it would be better to be part of the 98% of the population that doesn't worry about all these fine details and just goes and does "what makes sense." Ya try to do the right thing but it's hard when you get different guidance.

Well, I was looking for info on when WLOT training might be in our district and it hasn't been solidly scheduled yet.

So in discussing this with my local training resource...the "unit trainer" or whatever he's called, I asked him why I should take WLOT since I have BALOO, how it's different, what to recommend to my leaders, etc.

He basically said that "The WLOT does a bit more training in the Webelos to Scout transition, but as far as outdoor skill has no advantage over BALOO."

He also said that "You must have one BALOO trained individual and each leader must be Youth Protection trained to take the Webelos boys camping."

Well, I don't see the BALOO stuff for Webelos in the books anywhere so that may be a district thing, your mileage may vary, yada yada. Now, it's not a bad idea but if I have a leader that asks "show me where" I'm gonna have to say "the district says so."

More murkiness...(This message has been edited by gotta run)

The short answer is that Webelos do not need to be accompanied by parent(s).

The DL and parent are fine. The training required of the adults in charge, as well as the ratio of adults:scouts (beyond the need for two-deep) is murky, but that is not your question, so...

If you classify SS as a Ponzi scheme, you should do the same for any other private, traditional pension, as well as casualty and life insurance companies.

HOGWASH! Insurance funds its payouts not only from premiums collected but by investements. In fact, if you know anything about the insurance industry at all, it is that companies make little (if any) money on their pure "combined ratio" (premium earned / losses + expenses). Instead, they make money on investments.

That is not a component of social security, which started with the initial recipients receiving far more than they paid in due solely to contributions from subsequent participants...the next people to get paid out had paid in a little more but were still upside-down...and on and on, until the structure can no longer support itself because it is paying out far more than it is taking in to remain solvent.

This is a simple, basic, and inarguable mathematical fact, not being a "chicken little." Without an investment component, there is no way to keep the program solvent without A) reducing payouts (just try that one!!) or B) increasing contributions; i.e., taxes. Either that or take a big harvest from the Magical Money Tree.

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to separate investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned. The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering returns other investments cannot guarantee, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the returns that a Ponzi scheme advertises and pays requires an ever-increasing flow of money from investors to keep the scheme going."

(This message has been edited by gotta run)