83Eagle

Well I've got another bag meal you probably won't like then. Take a paper lunch bag and line the bottom with bacon. Put hash brown patties on the top and crack some eggs over the top of that. Put that on a grate over hot coals (not flames).

That one will definitely take more time than a fry pan and you're wasting a paper bag to boot. But, just like the plastic bag omelette, it's something the boys think is pretty cool and "I didn't know that would work."

I guess we just like to try different things once in a while for a little fun and variety. If boys are happy with the mess kits & dutch oven routine every time, more power to them.

It's really not that complicated. If you want less of something, tax it more. If you want more of something, tax it less. Works every time.

So the administration decides to increase taxes on "the rich" by letting tax increases take place on 1/1. So what are "the rich" going to do? Buy fewer flat screen TVs? (Which are made...where???) Hold off on that second yacht? Heh...

Look, folks, lower taxes are about investment in business, and hiring people. It's about faith. It's not about punishment. That's something the tax and spend crowd never really do understand.

But I could argue that point all day, and it wouldn't make any difference to those who've already made up their minds despite evidence to the contrary. After all, doesn't it just FEEL good and FEEL right to "tax the rich!" They got it coming!!!! Dang staight! Let them rascals pay!!!! Who cares that they're the only ones who create jobs?!

So never mind! I have a pack meeting to plan!!!

So are you saying that putting a massive tax increase in place effective 1/1 will be good for the economy then?

What about unemployment benefits...should they be left to expire as well? Or are they the "job creator" that Nancy Pelosi says?

Why is cooking in a ziploc not "real" cooking any more than foil or frying pan cooking? Do boys "starve to death" when they forget the authentic dutch oven? Or do you make them boil water by dropping hot rocks into hide bags? Geesh!

Plus it's fun, something a little different, and the boys enjoy it. Reason enough to give it a try.

Back on Topic with Cub Scouts. I know that the BSA is trying to create and maintain a "brand." Isn't the uniform one of the most recognizable "brand" images around? Folks instantly recognize BSA uniforms, and we have our "image."

Yes, and this is why I don't understand why the BSA would diminish that image by taking pieces of the uniform away, but that's mere speculation on my part.

I'm one of the people who has bemoaned the lack of a girl scout uniform leading to difficulty indentifying a group when they're out and the impossibility of identifying who a leader is unless she's standing at the front of the room. The uniform is a strength of the BSA program.

We'll see I guess!(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

Boy, I didn't notice this in the catalog...but NONE of the boys in Class A have neckers on except for the Boy Scout in the back with the Scout Sunday one.

So couple that with the "unofficial not for uniform wear jeans..."

I suspect this is intentional. I work in marketing and I have to believe that someone at BSA has given this catalog their blessing from a design standpoint even if they give it to an agency to completely produce.

Now on the other hand you have the official uniform inspection sheet that covers the scout from head to toe.

But...who out there has a CS pack that requires ALL the gear? Even the pants?

So this is all not surprising. Either you have a standard that's enforced, or you don't, and then people will do what they want, which becomes the defacto standard.

How come you guys can earn things like Polar bear patches in cub scouts while our Council limits us to no camp between the months of Nov - (i think) March or April.

We're not supposed to according to BALOO training, up here north of the 45th parallel. I wouldn't even consider trying it and I doubt I'd get a tour permit approved for it (or much interest from the Pack for that matter).

However, we do go winter camping...in cabins! That ensures the scouts sleep in comfortable conditions, at least temperature-wise (and a winter camping patch for the red vest).

To follow up what Beavah says, I checked our council award guidelines and they are very similar to what he stated--2 nights outside of a building, under 32 degrees.

And yes, this is geared toward the Boy Scout and not the Cub Scout level, but that's up to your Pack/Council.

In my BALOO training earlier this year, it was specifically stated that Cub Scouts were not allowed to go winter camping, which was defined as "any low temperature in which the cub scouts would feel uncomfortable sleeping outside." Now I'm sure there will be all sorts of folks who say it is just fine to stuff cubbies in tents with proper gear down into the single digits, so don't shoot the messenger, and your council may be different.

But again, back to your OP, it's whatever the patch issuer says, or make your own patch!

Since any polar bear patch is just a "for fun" red-vest patch--created by the council or pack and not related to any rank advancement for cub scouts--just go with whatever the organization that offers the patch says.

It sounds like your Pack has set the standard, based on your message, so that's what I'd go with; or negotiate with them for a change since it's an unofficial patch anyway.

If it's a council patch that has its own standard, you could create or buy a stock patch from various sources and use your own standard, but that still means you'd have to get the Pack to agree on a "warmer" standard...good luck!

(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

You can probably assume that most types of plastic freezer bags will leach at least a small amount of hazardous chemicals (not likely to be dioxins) when used off-label to boil foods in water.

Not looking to pick a fight here, but what evidence is that based on?

The on-box instructions for Ziploc freezer bags (and Saran wrap) provide instructions for use in the microwave, which has the potential to give you much hotter temperatures than your boiling water will.

The only concern I see here is with melting. If anyone would ask at a campout, I'd give them this answer. And they could always grab the pudgie pie maker, which makes pretty good omelets too.

The only problem we've ever had with melting has been when the bag hit the side of the pot!

Then you get, as mentioned, egg-drop soup!

That is the point of this thread. Get rid of Scoutcraft so that Boy Scouts can be more like Girl Scouts.

That is your interpretation of this thread as filtered through your point of view and whatever agenda you have. Nobody mentioned "get rid of Scoutcraft" until you did.

Your creating the term "Girl Scout boys" as a perjorative...well, it says a lot. That's all I have to say on the matter.

I was thinking about this more and I would not recommend using a rubber band to hold the rolled up socks together. Your goal here is not to end up with small and tight projectiles, but soft sock balls, particularly having Tigers and younger siblings there.

(I'm waiting for someone out there to post how this violates G2SS somehow...)

I dug out my official Sock Wars sheet for a few more tips:

Bring a supply of large cardboard sheets (large boxes or tag board work) to the pack meeting along with several rolls of tape and markers. With the help of the den leader, each den builds and decorates a cardboard "castle" or "fort" for the first part of the meeting. Limit the time to about 15 minutes. These forts do not need to be very large or sturdy. Just something for the kids to duck behind.

Each scout brings a new six pack of adult white tube socks. While the kids are building the fort the parents roll and tuck each pair tube socks into "snow balls". A pair of socks make a good sized ball and save having to match socks later. Bring a laundry basket to hold them. The kids can drop the package in the basket as they arrive.

Line half the forts on one side of a large open space and half on the other, leaving a DMZ in the middle (maybe 12 feet). When the forts are ready and in place, each kid gets six socks. A whistle is blown and the kids try to hit kids on the other side. Let the play continue until most of the socks are in the DMZ - remember the ammo is replenished as the other side lobs socks over the wall so play last longer than the throwing of the original six socks.

Blow the whistle to stop play. Kids rush out to DMZ, collect as many socks as they can, and run back to their forts. Blow the whistle to start the combat. Rinse and repeat until exhaustion sets in.

At then end of the event, socks are collected and donated to a local shelter or charity and this becomes a Christmas time service project.

Notes:

- cutting cardboard should be avoided, but if any cutting is needed it should be done by the den leader only

- could bring straws and colored paper to add pennants

- this is a good game to include siblings of near Cub Scout age

Optional fun start:

Leader-1 stands in the DMZ to explain the rules. The kids don't actually need a lot of explanation - they get this game instinctively. While explaining the game to the kids he/she carefully emphasizes that no throwing should take place until the whistle (held by leader-2) is blown twice - the start signal. He/she explains that no one should come out from behind the walls until the "all stop whistle" (one long toot) is blown because they would become a target. Of course leader-2 give the start signal before leader-1 exits the DMZ.

This can be repeated a second time between round one and two. After round two leader-1 makes a show of taking the whistle from leader-2 before entering the DMZ a third time to again emphasize the whistle rules. Leader-2 (or if so inclined - all the other leader) then produces another whistle and blows the start signal while leader-1 is in the DMZ.

This is a camp favorite! A few tips on these:

-Use Ziploc FREEZER bags, not regular Ziplock bags. Regular bags can melt, not just cheapo generics.

-Use a sharpie (before you fill the bag) to write an initial or something on the bag so you can tell them apart (if it matters).

-Don't try to be cheap and reuse the bags...learned that one the hard way.

Also, be prepared for people to say "You can't do this!" Our local council scouting newsletter even published a warning about it. You'll find lots of threads on the 'net about how dangerous this is because of release of "toxins" but this is a bunch of hogwash. Ziploc released the following info related to toxins in plastic bags:

"In 2002, we became aware of an email that was being widely circulated, which warned consumers about the alleged dangers of using plastics in the microwave. This email claimed that the combination of fat, high heat, and plastics releases dioxin into the food and ultimately into the cells of the body, thereby increasing the risk of producing cancerous cells. We researched these claims and it is clear that the information is misleading, and unnecessarily alarms consumers.

Saran and Ziploc products are 100% dioxin free. You also should be aware that dioxins can be formed only when chlorine is combined with extremely high temperatures, such as 1,500F, which even the most powerful consumer microwave ovens are unable to produce."

Of course, 1,500F is hotter than your boiling water can ever get to as well.

Now, Ziploc will not officially recommend their regular bags for this purpose because they are not "designed" for it (read: legal liability). However, Ziploc sells a "zip & steam" bag!...so you can draw your own conclusions...

This might be more info than you'll ever need, but I've run up against this and have had to use this info, so there you have it...(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

The area between the forts is the DMZ. They start tossing on the whistle. When socks run low you blow the whistle and they run out to the DMZ to reload. Repeat. No prizes needed. Our boys bring a pack of new white socks to the meeting. Socks are donated to the community closet afterward.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

Well, kudu, you've obviously put a lot of thought into that issue and, since your points are mostly differences of opinion or interpretation I'm not going to argue with you about each one. My belief is that scouting is still scouting, although I will admit my perspective is focused on the 30 years of my personal observation and not the last 100.

However, I do take issue with you repeatedly using Girl Scouting as a mocking description of how you perceive Boy Scouts to be. Not only do I think it is inaccurate, but I for one am very proud of my Girl Scout daughter.

"To go camping."

Daughter hates girls scouts, all they do is sell cookies and make a craft every meeting. Not very meaning full.

She simply cannot wait to be of age to enter Venturing.

So how can GS do a better job when the girls are itching to join venturing.

Depends on the troop. My daughter is a Cadet and goes camping with the troop several times a year, every season, and has been camping with her troop since first grade, maybe even kindergarten, can't recall. Plus summer district camps and a smattering of other outdoor activities. The only crafts she does is when she is leading a meeting of Daisies or Brownies, which her troop takes turns doing.

When she's not outdoors, much of her other time in Scouting is spent in service projects...working with the humane society to walk the dogs...working with our village to refurbish the parks equipment...organizing food drives when the pantry runs low.

And then there are the usual outings. Over the next few months they have a hockey/ice skating lesson/demo with the local triple-A team (or whatever they are) lined up...reserved the whole movie theatre for the service unit to take in a show...plus some "girly" stuff like a Mom & Me tea and, yes, even a trip planned to the Mall of America. Not something I'd enjoy, but she can't wait.

So, the opportunity and the structure is there. It's all a matter of how the program is run, and by whom.

Though I will readily admit, she probably cannot tie a single lashing, blow a bugle, or transmit a message in semaphore code.

My question to leadership enthusiasts is always: "Why not Little League?"

Why not replace all those "outdated" baseball skills that Den Leaders find not useful "at work and home," and turn Little League into something that most boys will hate as much as modern Scouting?

After all, the ability to swing a wooden club "at work and home" became obsolete with the dawn of the Bronze Age.

With respect, I don't see how this analogy supports the point you are trying to make.

Little league and the game of baseball itself has changed over the past 100 years. So have other sports. Although the philosophy of the game is the same, if you tried to have a team play the same way the game was played back then, using the same strategies, techniques, and equipment, it would be laughable. "Nah, Johnny, you don't need that mouthguard and fancy helmet to play quarterback, just wear this leather cap and you'll be fine. And what are you doing throwing the ball? This game is about running!" Likewise, coaching of youth sports has changed as well.

As far as I can see, Scouting is still fundamentally Scouting. Boys are still outside, camping and doing adventurous activities, and working in the patrol method. And our troop today does much more when it comes to boy-led, adventure-filled programming than I ever did as a Boy Scout in a top-down troop 20+ years ago.

Of course, the program has evolved. But the argument seems to be about emphasis in the delivery of the program, and whether or not certain skills are arcane or still germane to 21st century youth.

And as far as Scouting being "gay?" Well, let's be honest with ourselves: the perception that scouting isn't cool been around long after "square" was dropped from the CS promise. It's just something we have to deal with and help the boys prove otherwise (or not worry about).

My point was obviously not to disparage the sacrifices being made in what is multi-war era.

The OP was really focused on a single issue. Rather than try to explain part of any presidential era in terms of war or military operations spending, I just tried to keep the playing field level in the spirit of the OP.

When you look at the US deficit as a % of GDP over the past century there is a spike to more than 16% during WWI and a huge spike, to over 28%, in WWII. I probably should have said that the current deficit as a % of GDP is higher than in any "non-world-war" era in the past 100 years.

Again, no one knows for sure what things will look like in 2012 or 2016, but given the goverment's propensity for baseline budgeting, it's unlikely that any "cuts" to spending will have an impact of reducing either the defecit or the debt.

Oh, I LOVE the idea of having the boys volunteer! That makes sense and I've already done it to motivate parents on other issues.

"Ok, who is going to go camping!"

100% of hands shoot up.

"Ok, so you gotta tell mom or dad to get your camping form in by this Friday because they're due!"

Etc.... Works wonders b/c the kids are pestering the parents and not me.

How I presented this to the parents at the roundup was that Tiger Cubs was a parent-run program, but that I was here to help. Then I said I would need a leader to serve essentially as a coordinator, to set the schedule of who's doing what and to coordinate with me and the pack and the advancement coordinator to keep everyone on the same page, etc etc.

But...I think what happens is the person who stepped up to be leader puts the uniform on and suddenly they are the person in the "official" position, which is natural.

I agree the expectation needs to be set, and I think we've done what we can to do that. The good news is that my TDL tells me she has set a schedule but the parents are reluctant. Perhaps that's natural and they'll see how well it all works and it will all be good.

What I'm trying to avoid is just using the "because the book says so" reason for why parents need to share leadership. Even though that's the rule, it's not the reason, and therefore I'm hoping for some POSITIVE motivators to use with parents. Some good ones have come thus far, keep 'em coming...

My view of the Tea Party position, which I will admit I have not fully explored, is that it is not just a matter of what is being spent, but what it is being spent ON.

People are angry about either the fact or their perception that we are mortgaging our children's futures and printing money to bail out irresponsible entities, fund stimulus programs for which there is no readily visible beneift, and essentially "spreading the wealth around" through new trillion-dollar entitlement/benefit programs. In contrast, a lot of the defecit in the Reagan years, if memory serves (and I wasn't paying much attention in the 80s, being more focused on being a Cub Scout), was in rebuilding the military that had been neglected under Jimmy Carter (though surely, waste, graft, corruption, and $1,000 toilet seats existed under Reagan's watch as well).

Now, whether Reagan's fiscal policies created a marked and long-lasting increase in tax revenues from which Bill Clinton's favorable defecit/debt comparison stands is a subject of another debate.

edit: I guess I would have been a Boy Scout in the 80s....(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

Well, I guess we can't tell yet what our current president will record over his term.

But, if we look at the defecit rather than debt:

US Federal Defecit as a % of GDP

1980 2788.1 2.65

1981 3126.8 2.53

1982 3253.2 3.93

1983 3534.6 5.88

1984 3930.9 4.72

1985 4217.5 5.03

1986 4460.1 4.96

1987 4736.4 3.16

1988 5100.4 3.04

1989 5482.1 2.78

1990 5800.5 3.81

1991 5992.1 4.49

1992 6342.3 4.58

1993 6667.4 3.83

1994 7085.2 2.87

1995 7414.7 2.21

1996 7838.5 1.37

1997 8332.4 0.26

1998 8793.5 -0.79

1999 9353.5 -1.34

2000 9951.5 -2.37

2001 10286.2 -1.25

2002 10642.3 1.48

2003 11142.1 3.39

2004 11867.8 3.48

2005 12638.4 2.52

2006 13398.9 1.85

2007 14077.6 1.14

2008 14441.4 3.18

2009 14258.2 9.91

2010 14623.9 10.64

Have past Republican presidents been a model of fiscal responsibility? No.

Has any president ever racked up a bigger defecit in a non-war period than our current president? Nope. And, since debt equals accumulated defecit, I'm gonna predict it's not gonna look real good when the presidential debt stats are updated in 2012 or 2016.

Here's my question: As you know, the Tiger program is supposed to operate under the principal of "shared leadership." For those who have gotten this to work, what are the ways you have gotten the parents to do what they are supposed to do?

Here's a little more background. I started a few years ago as TDL and diligently went through the materials including all the "leaders work with boy-adult partners to plan meetings and activities" stuff. I asked my CM a question back then, and he said, "Well, that doesn't work, you're the leader," So, not knowing any better at the time I just ran things myself and never tried to get the shared model to work. 20/20 hindsight....

Well, three years later I'm now CM (funny how that works). First off, we had a bit of a leader-recruiting challenge with this year's Tiger Den. Went through several candidates before we finally got a good one to step up and, yes, she is very good for the role. I stressed to her that she's not supposed to do it all, and she's gone through position training and the leader materials so she knows the background of how the Tiger program is supposed to run. I asked her about involving the parents and she said that she laid out her expectations but that "they weren't too receptive." She's not the type who will mind taking the same path I took (as did last year's TDL), but this just isn't the way it's supposed to work, so that bugs me.

What have you done that works for this? Have sign-up sheets with meeting dates or activity/outing types and require people to pick one? And what do you do with the parent who steadfastly refuses to do anything other than show up as required to be the adult partner? I believe that while, in general, people will live up (or down) to your expectations, there are some people who are absent parents even when they're present and are going to stay that way, period.

There's really not much of a "hammer" at your disposal, and besides, you'd like it to be a positive experience for everyone, not something they begrudgingly do.

Seeing that I failed at this when I was TDL, anyone else have any ideas?