Krampus

You've noticed, hopefully, that I'm limiting my arguments to the Cub Scout level, right?  Tigers?  Wolves?  Bears?  Why are you holding 2nd graders to the same expectations as middle schoolers?  When all this should be fun, not a hard-nosed drill.

 

Keep it Simple, Make It Fun, Do Your Best.

Better question: Why are you awarding stuff to kids who didn't even ATTEMPT to do a certain requirement?

It does not matter their age. When you lower your expectations of kids they will perform to the lowered expectations.

It can all still be fun....and properly earned.

And the membership numbers continue to drop.  But at least the ones who stay can recite big words in 1st grade and manage perfect attendance.

 

This is Cub Scouts.  Do Your Best.

If the people leaving are doing what you are doing, then I can live with lower numbers. I'd rather have kids that don't feel a sense of entitlement and do the work, than have a bunch of kids who got something they didn't earn. 

I've had more than one new scout urinate near or on their tent in the middle of the night because they were scared in the dark.

I can say I've done that in bear territory when my over-night bottle was already full. There are some times when that is necessary.

I used to suggest that scouts have a couple of 5 mile hikes under their belt, especially the scouts who were a little more round, but I really haven't seen very many of them.  Although I'd still recommend they do a 5 miler or two, the less round scouts generally had no problem going 10 miles cold.  More power, after a long winter indoors, I can have a hard time doing 10 miles these days!

 

Staging can be helpful, but if that was the mission, wouldn't they require the 20 mile hike be done last?

Well, you would think they would have required that it be done last, but remember, this is BSA. They never fully and completely say what they are really thinking.

I suspect by putting the 20-miler after the tiered hiking that was their intent. I guess they don't have enough experience with youth to know that they NEVER do things in order.

Worst case 20 laps around the Middle School track should do the trick.

Personally I'd limit that unless you are in an urban setting.

I live in the 'burbs with plenty of walking trails, but I encourage they guys to get out -- even if with mom and dad -- and really hit a dirt trail. We are lucky to have both pavement and several woodland trails in our area that would allow 10 miles to get knocked out no problem.

But I guess you have to manage with what you have in your region. We try to have at least 3 of the 5 hikes be on honest to goodness trails in state parks or private land. The 20 miler is usually a through hike alone a lake to the north.

Really?  1st and 2nd graders know they didn't do it?  Have you ever asked a Cub Scout what they did to earn one of the badges on their shirt or loops on their belt? 

 

You think counseling and pencil pushing is the answer?  Once these boys hit Boy Scouts, and have seven years to grow, mature, and develop to earn each rank and requirement, they can take ownership of the process.  But half of the boys in my Den can't read their handbook yet. 

 

They tried to earn the Wolf Badge.  Good enough.

Yes, when you are trying to teach honesty and hard work, you're darn right you kids know what they've done and what they have not. Especially when you take the time to sit down with them and review it.

Of course, as Akela you have a requirements to ALSO "Do Your Best" and be honor-bound to at least try. To award something without trying is called stealing. It is dishonest. So even if you haven't bothered to sit down with your Scout and review such concepts, you as an adult should hold yourself to them.

But again, by all means, let's give him something he did not earn. We will see how that lesson serves him as he grows up.

I'd expect more from a parent.

What lesson does it teach for boys who attended and participated all year not to receive recognition due to the failings of the adults?  Make them cry at the year end ceremony, that'll help the membership numbers for next year.

 

Do Your Best. 

What lesson does it teach them when you reward them for something they didn't do...AND THEY KNOW THEY DIDN'T DO IT?

How about discussing with them why they did not get the rank because they did not do the work ("We still have work to do but we will get it done.") and then discuss the virtue of patience (wait until we actually do the work) and the reward that comes with having TRIED instead of being given something they DIDN'T try.

Again, Do Your Best means you actually have to TRY the requirement, not skip over it and SAY you tried. If you are such a proponent of doing one's best, you have to try the darn thing first.

Full stop.

Its just Cub Scouts.  Do Your Best.

Then why even have requirements? Seriously?

Do Your Best means to give your best in completing the requirement. It does NOT mean you get the requirement counted as complete if you don't even TRY it. You cannot Do Your Best if you don't even ATTEMPT the requirements.

But hey, trophies for everyone!!!

I find myself in a similar position. Despite all the warnings from the BSA against units seeking non-profit status, it seems like they've left us no other choice.

 

Isn't this the same as forming a "Friends of" organization?

I would think there's a problem forming your unit in to a non-profit being already an entity of your CO. I would think there's issues there. It would be like the youth ministry forming their own non-profit but being under the charter of the church.

There are enough lawyers here (@@CalicoPenn?) to weigh in on this subject.

New Requirements (relevant to the discussion)

 

4 - Take the five following hikes, each on a different day, and each of continuous miles. These hikes MUST be taken in the following order

• One 5-mile hike
• Three 10-mile hikes
• One 15-mile hike

You may stop for as many short rest periods as needed, as well as one meal, during each hike, but not for an extended period (example: overnight). Prepare a written hike plan before each hike and share it with your Scoutmaster or a designee. Include map routes, a clothing and equipment list, and a list of items for a trail lunch. *

 

I think this in order thing is probably going to keep some scouts away from the badge.  If some scouts have done their 5 mile, and someone joins the group late, they won't get credit for a 10 mile hike.  For me, you get to hike 10 miles, so what, you'll get credit for only 5, but scouts, especially younger scouts will probably feel a little cheated, so, they will be less likely to even bother joining in. 

 

They did it specifically to teach progression training for the 20-miler, that's all.

I've seen far too many guys drop this MB because they could barely do the ten miles, let alone the 20 miles. Despite my advice, guys would plan the 20 miler to "get it out of the way" rather than do the 10 milers first.

This new set of requirements now shows them the wisdom of interval training for the 20 miler.

None of the leaders witnessed this. We were attending as Cub visitors. I was at the back of the hiking group when this happened, and didn't see it clearly, but other Scouts and Cubs did. IIRC the offenders made some lame excuse like they couldn't hold it or something. So I probably was to blame for not dealing with it it more vigorously. I think I mentioned it to the ASM that evening, who kind of shrugged it off.

 

If I reported every obnoxious thing this kid did I would be running to the SM every half hour. This is the son of our former Pack Scoutmaster, currently one of the Troop's ASMs.

Therein lies the problem, I'm afraid. When I've seen stuff like this before the unit never does anything about the Scout because, well, they don't want to lose his dad. Unless the SM is serious about addressing such issues this will only continue until the Scout finally leaves Scouting.

I hate to say it, but it does sound like these adult leaders really don't consider this behavior as un-Scoutlike. My troop welcomes on average 5-7 Scouts as year as transfers; mostly because their former units tolerate similar crass behavior.

You may need to find another unit if this does not improve for you....or learn to teach your son to stay away from this kid.

I'd be prepared for the eventuality that this may never get better.

It's "Do Your Best", not pound paperwork for every little achievement.  Award the ranks if the boys did their best to complete them, and move on to the next year.  Its not Eagle, for gosh sakes.

But "Do Your Best" means to do your best while COMPLETING the requirements.

It does not mean simply attempt to complete them all, but hey, if you don't award the rank anyway.

That's the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. 

Why does bugler drop from the list of Positions of Responsibility for the Eagle rank?  Why only bugler?  Is there an officially stated reason?  What are your thoughts?

Your official explanation is here.

I suspect that, since most units only use Bugler for morning/evening calls, that's why. I doubt many troops really ever use the POR for anything beyond that, so the POR for Eagle is seen as something more substantial required; though I wonder why Librarian counts if Bugler does not.  

When I was at More Rain State Park in '77 we were so boy led that we build a rain gutter regatta in our camp site. Invited anyone to enter a "boat" for a fee. The money was put in to a general fund run by some kid from Queens. I got the feeling he had experience with off-track, illegal betting before. He kept the money, gave odds and handled pay outs. This ran from Day 2 through the last day of rain on Day 5. The proceeds went to our patrol's ice cream fest on the MB Mudway on the last day.

100% boy led.

Our council is charging ~$2300 to go to Philmont.  Wow inflation and then some, when I was a scout in 93, I went for $750.  My son wants to follow my footsteps to Philmont, but unless the scouts in his unit really up their tolerance for high adventure, he'll probably do the OA Trail Crew. 

Don't go with council...ever. Try other units. They usually have a spot or two...especially if you are wilderness first aid trained.

@@Grubdad, I hate to be Nancy Naysayer, but it sounds like the leaders are simply going to give these kids yet another chance.

Peeing in the middle of someone else's camp site and then doing something as dangerous as laying down in a roadway is a deal break as far as I'm concerned. If that is not grounds for immediate probation or suspension, I don't know what it.

I hope your leadership gets their act together and can stop this stuff. Let us know what happens.

Lastly, please don't think of the troop as "their troop". You are a dues paying member so you and your family are PART of the troop with an equal voice. Any troop that seeks to learn and grow will be totally open to ANY comments, suggestions, questions or concerns that ANY member has. If not, that's a sure sign you might be in the wrong place.

Scouts is not like Little League where everyone gets a trophy. The boys understand this, the adults once did.

Exactly. Let them learn early that better preparation will yield better performance.

@@heat4212, how much is left to do? Is there any reason you can't take the rest of May-August to get this all done and THEN give them their ranks?

$850 for staff - it would be interesting to see how they came up with that number.  I know when I do a budget, I'm expected to provide every detail.

 

$1250 council contingent fee

I'm sure it saves a lot of money being just a few hours by bus from the Summit.  Also, being in the National Capital Area Council, there is no need for a tour of DC as we are around it all the time.  It seems like a lot of further out councils add that to their Jamboree trip.  The $950 participant fee is the bulk of that.  The bus and the swag that I know about can't account for the $300, so I'm sure there is some council overhead in there somewhere. 

 

It is not cheap, that is for sure, I've spent less on 10 day vacations for 5 of us.  If a scout can't afford to go, many councils have options to help them.  That's why I buy all of those over priced fundraiser patches! 

$850 for the "honor" of taking 5 days off of work and travelling to do volunteer work for an organization that makes a profit off of an event like this? No thanks. When you total up what you pay BSA plus your PTO and travel, frankly I'd rather invest the money in a better trip like to Philmont, Seabase or NT. Better yet, head to Alaska and do a high adventure camp there. Far more bang for the buck.

$1200 is what you spend. Many other councils the cost is twice that...for one Scout!! I can send my kid to Philmont once and NT once for that same cost. I can send him to Kandersteg for the summer and still have money left over to travel around Europe after I'm done.

Financial aid dries up fast and goes to those who know how to work the system, so forget that.

As I've said, I've been there twice. Once as a Scout and once as an adult. It is okay but I wouldn't do it again. It checks a box but if I had it to do over I wouldn't do it. I'd save my money and have a truly great adventure that I will fondly remember.

In conversation in another place, it seems that scouters, and scouts, tend to fall roughly into two camps, Jamboree Johnnies, and Bushcraft Bennies.

 

Jamboree Johnnies will be able to justify these big national camps on all sorts of grounds that would be an anathema to the Bushcraft Bennies.

 

Sounds like a great camp. Enjoy!

 

Ian

I've been. Twice. You're better off giving your scout a personal trip elsewhere. For the money spent (if around what I quoted) the value gained is less than what he'd gain elsewhere.

It's worth the trip, just not that much.

If you look at the Jamboree the right way, it is a bargain.

If you are in the right council it may be a "bargain". 

$2,300 to sleep in a tent and eat lousy food for one week is not a bargain in my book.

 

Krampus,

 

 Our district has quite a few units that have their own ceremony teams for their own call-outs, crossovers, and AOL ceremonies. Our chapter keeps its team ready for those troops and packs that aren't so fortunate.

Interesting. Apparently in my neck of the woods it is considered heresy.

We don't care, we keep doing it and the packs like it, as does our unit. If there's no rule against it we will keep doing it.

The DE's primary job is fundraising

and then getting new units

and then growing membership

 

Anything else like support for volunteers or units comes after that.

Odd...because the many job descriptions I see that define what the DE's role is says otherwise.

If you have evidence that supports your assumption it would be good to post it. The several dozen I have found while looking online show that there are several main objectives of a DE, not the least of which is volunteer relations with unit leaders and CORs...which would seem to cover this situation perfectly.

The Jac-Shirt is not part of the BSA official uniform, any more than the BSA blue jeans sold in the catalog.  There's a lot of clothing items sold that aren't part of the BSA official uniform.  One can sew hundreds of patches on their class-b uniforms because there is no such thing as a class-b uniform.  The only restrictions are what goes on the official uniform which very few wear appropriately anyway.

And yet it is mentioned in the uniform and insignia guide.

No up to code on this, but why can't the OA Rep "tap out" the boys in the troop and send them off for ordeal?

I don't know that he can't. We just put together our own ceremonial unit for tap outs because the guys wanted to do it. They were tired of going to camporee (saw it as a waste of time for a long time) and simply wanted to offer this service. They also do crossovers.

As far as I know you only need to be elected to attend ordeal. Tap out is not required...at least where I live.

Asked and unanswered 6 years ago http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/13047-jac-shirt-adornment/

Yeah I saw that. Read this too. Checked the Guide to Awards and Insignia and got nothing. Checked the Scouting Magazine archive, also nothing.

So I just sent a note to the Ask the Expert page on Scouting Magazine. Figured I would share what I get, but so far I don't see any written guidelines baring you from wearing more than one patch on your red jacket.