Krampus

@@Eagledad, those are good points. However, there's the other side to that coin. 

It looks like the adult-led guys are not just entrenched, but digging in deeper, shoring up their "buy-in" from other adults and the leaders seem new enough that they are not going anywhere (figuratively or literally) soon. So any movement to a more boy-led approach will be years in the making. 

Can it be done? Sure. But the process will take time, additional leaders who feel like @@Eagle94-A1, and a whole lot of extra effort. You not only have to build the boy-led mindset, you have to deconstruct the whole adult-led apparatus. We all know that will take many years to fix.

I think the non-supportive tones you hear here are simply to help @@Eagle94-A1 realize that the level of time and effort to fix the existing program may outweigh the desire to experience Scouting in a more boy-led program in the short time he has left with his son.

And thus begins the slippery slope alternative to Scouting.  50 years ago, this is how it started for me.  This is nothing new, but one would think that by now the elitist intellectuals of the PC world would have figured this out by now.  Apparently not. 

 

At least for me, I have a modern compromise.  All the things I can't do in Scouting, I get to do with my church youth group kids.    After 50 years, I have learned how to play the game.

I think my guys found the work around on their own too.

[shaking head]

I just cannot get over adults getting THAT involved in managing kids. I really feel for the boys. They are not learning a thing other than dad will be there to save your butt when you give up.

Just wait until they get in to the workforce.

So, had PLC last night. They had a great idea for a game involving...wait for it...water balloons.

When I told them that BSA prohibited the use of non-biodegradable water balloon over the size of a ping pong ball, you could have cut the sarcasm that followed with a knife.

I think when BSA tries to pass another rule they should run it past a focus group of teenagers. If the BSA leaders can argue their way out of that room without having one person quit Scouting as a result, then they can implement the policy.

The PLC's solution was to NOT have a meeting that week BUT for anyone interested in having fun to show up on their own (no uniforms) and conduct the game. Since it is not a Scout activity I cannot stop them...out of my jurisdiction.

Bravo BSA.

But alas, dear @@Krampus Why would out-of-state students want to come to your state when they can get a free education in their own.  Remember, this is a socialist/communist system where the easy choice is the only free one.  Luring out-of-state students so they can get a free education?  Not likely.  I'm thinking that the whole system would change if the only free option was one's own in-state state funded system.  No Oklahoma student with any sense would pay to go to a Texas state school and pay out-of-state tuition when they can get a free education in Oklahoma.

Free? Who is getting free in-state tuition? 

Try being a mid to upper class ranked student with A-B grades and 1200 SATs trying to get in to your own state school. If you have color you have a shot. If you don't, you better be looking at a private school that hasn't reached their quota yet.

I'd rather acceptance we totally blind and accept kids based on achievement, not color, or sex, or orientation, or size of mommy and daddy's bank account.

Have him be a College Reserve Scouter or whatever the term is and come on campouts and help out.  Manage the other adult scouters so they don't cause problems.  The scouts love guys like this, and that's what's important.

Had never heard of this, so googled it and found it here. It is called Unit College Scouter Reserve. The process seems simple but is done at the council level and not the unit level at recharter:

Your council’s registrar should have all the details on position code 92U, the Unit College Scouter Reserve, and you should be able to simply convert existing college-age members from SA to 92U at recharter time without having them complete a new adult application. Newly aged-out Scouts should still submit an adult application when they turn 18, listing position code 92U. (Be sure to use the very latest adult application form, which you can obtain from your commissioner or district executive, or at your council service center or scout shop. As of this writing, it’s the one with the perforations on the left, not at the top. You should recycle any other versions of the adult form.)

But coming from KANSAS!!! Holy smokes I have a tough time imagining what kind of prep that would require.

For you I recommend the Ozarks. Closer too.

It is actually not that bad. My guys that went to Colorado last year did a little prep but had to time to acclimate to altitude. Took it easy the first few days and hydrated 5-6 liters per day. Slow and steady, but they got to see a great deal and still managed 32 miles.When done they realized that they could have done more...way more...but were satisfied as Flatlanders.

AT won't give them the altitude issues CO did, but they should not under estimate the up/down of the AT. Ridgelines are your friend.

Something is rotten in Denmark. The SM and CC can now expect to be put under the microscope. Good!!! They are being unscouting and deserve to be [put under such scrutiny.

I've said it a 1,000 times, UCs are useless. Never met one that did anything beyond ask me for my JTE paperwork and when they could do their FOS presentation. Want, want, want. Hope he is unvolunteered from that position.

You son learned a valuable lesson, while trust is a great thing you cannot trust everyone...even people who claim they are working for your best interests. He will get Eagle and a good life lesson in the process.

Councils would hate that idea, wouldn't they? My council pushes their camps for us to use every month. We go all over but they (council) gives you the stink eye when they ask you why you don't use their camps instead.

 

By the way, you don't have to be an Eagle to give back.

 

Barry

Very true, Barry. All Scouts should give back what they take out of the program...not just the Eagles.

You'd need several for Texas too. We measure travel time in hours, not miles.

Well we are from Kansas and nobody here as far as I know has done the A.T. I just thought it would be a great high adventure trip.

 

Thing is from what your saying is its best to have people along who have already done it. For example this thing with the shelters. Plus I hear the AT can be pretty crowded at times and have quite a party culture.

 

Maybe we should try something else.

Dear Fellow Flatlander (

Train, train, train before you go. Don't think that you can do 10 miles a day unless you've trained on similar terrain. It just won't happen. Take it easy and relax and enjoy. If you have to do 30 miles instead of 50, so be it.

If you've never been, get a guide or at least take time to know your route.

There are sections of the AT that are like US 95. There are others that are not. Last time I checked, NC was perhaps lesser traveled than those routes in the northeast.

Son #1 is aging out soon at 18 after finally getting his Eagle. As he still has two more years of High School I am not getting rid of him yet and he is (somewhat) interested in staying on in a limited capacity as an Adult Leader. I think he is over the weekly meeting (he has perfect attendance since Tigers for ten years) but is a pretty advanced Backpacker, Canoe/Kayak/Sailor, Camper, Knot and Lashing kind of old school guy. So I think he wants to keep his hand in a bit (despite the bad taste the BSA paperwork driven Eagle application process has become).

 

I would like some advice on how to avoid the pitfalls of this sort of things. On occasion we have had some college age scouters come on trips and the boys ate it up. But sometimes the parent scouters could be difficult. How would you handle it? 

If he's that accomplished and he has two years until he ages out, I would recommend a JASM or Instructor role for him.

I always tell my guys like that what my football (soccer) coach told me. He was from Africa and had a very unique but simple outlook on life. He'd say, "Life is like a well. If you keep taking from the well and don't help dig it deeper or build a new one, future generations will have no well, no water, no future. Dig another well or dig the well that's there deeper before you leave." His point was simple, put back into the program what you have taken out. If you are an Eagle there is a great deal you owe the program.

I pass that wisdom on to my Scouts. Don't Eagle out and leave. Troop meetings can be dull. How can HE help make them fun? How can he help equip the new Scouts coming in with the core Scouting skills they need to be just like him? How can he help develop the youth leaders of the troop? How can he help train the adults in the troop how to stay out of the Scouts' hair?

My kid is in the same boat. As a SMs and CMs kid, he's put in WAY more time than perhaps 99% of the all the other Scouts. However, I always point out to him that the ability to continue to give -- even after you have given your full measure -- is what defines you as a human being and a good Scout. He's taken a role as a JASM and lead Instructor until he ages out. He's going to come on as an ASM before he graduates.

Sounds like your Scout still has the interest. It's up to you and his SM to help him challenge himself further instead of thinking he's "done".

We have about 40 Scouts on paper and maybe 20+ show up for campouts. Troop meetings are probably in the average of 30. We are not strong in the Patrol Method and that's the first place I need to focus. Our troop is not used to patrols acting as a defined group that cooks, eats, cleans, sleeps together etc. We've been run by the herd method where patrols don't have any meaning. On campouts patrols always mixed because two would show up from a patrol. There was never any patrol identity. It didn't help that patrols were appointed by the SPL instead of letting the Scouts  form their own patrols. 

If two show up, that's your patrol. I wouldn't mix them just to make numbers.

The hardest thing I found was managing the expectations of adults that everything should go smoothly. Once they jump that hurdle and buy in to the fact that it may be a train wreck for a while, then you are halfway there.

The next step is to train the guys in patrol operations. How do patrols set up camp? How do they purchase and cook food? How do they clean up? Once they get used to those things then the rest should fall in to place.

Just like sports, you have warm ups before the game or practice. Getting good at patrol and troop operations is the key. Once those become second nature -- if even just for the older Scouts -- leadership will grow on its own. The adults just need to sit back and have that cup of coffee AFTER the boys have been trained.

Waiting out the biggest naysayer IMHO will be a challenge as he is a Scouting addict like me, plus he is the ASM who is a former youth in the troop. It seems as if he doesn't have the patience to let them screw up, and learn from their mistakes. Heck I found out that his son, who's been a CS and in the troop a year, doesn't know how to put up one of the tents! Apparently other Scouts and/or dad has been doing it for him!

When we are making the change way back when, one of older, wiser ASMs would cook a great Friday snack for the adults, including dessert. It was amazing how many adults couldn't find the time to put up Timmy's tent when there was good adult food available.

Timmy got tired of waiting and finally put up his own tent. Amazing the power of food!

Fantastic view from Maryland Heights.

360 Panorama

https://goo.gl/maps/7JQjpQQYMfB2

@@doakley

Our SPL leads the camp outs WITH the PLs. The camp out is planned by the PLC. There is a camp out plan which the SPL and PLs execute. They meet at the PLC Friday night and Saturday night to discuss what happens the next day. Each month a program patrol is responsible for planning the weekly meetings. The PL of the program patrol manages that task are reports to the SPL.

Took a while to build this in to the process but it became the cornerstone of our movement to the patrol method.

This varies from one location to the next.  I live in an area covered with top soil/vegetative mulch, then sand then more sand and after that more sand.  The river bottoms do not make a good sample areas.  So the river cuts through sandstone, from where the sand came from and it does have a mix of limestone in it, but that's about it.  Other areas to the east of us have bedrock quartzite and other interesting rocks but for the most part the rocks that wash in are variable and interesting, but any strata sampling is pretty weak.

The requirement only says, "Collect and identify soils found in different layers of a soil profile." Doesn't say you need to go to Moab and become a strata expert.

If one wishes to go out of state, they pay for it.  If one wishes to go to private schools, they pay for it.  If they wish the tax payers to pick up the tab, they take the in-state 2 -> 4 year state schools for tuition free education.  They might think they are entitled to a free tuition education, but the tax payer pays for nice state schools right in their own state that should fit the bill very nicely.

@@Stosh, it is tough to get in to state schools from i-state these days. With all the quotas out there, if you don't fit in to one of the quota groups -- and at the top of that group -- you don't get in. Out of state or private schools are the only option in most cases. Some state schools are now offering in-state tuition to lure those folks from neighboring states that would otherwise qualify for in-state in their own state. You'd think that in-state folks would get preference over out-of-state folks but that's a thing of the past. 

I confess I don't quite understand statements like charity "at the point of a gun" and "stealing out of someone else's hard work" and all that.

Then let me explain. You work your butt off but still pay a ton of taxes because you are successful. You hope to benefit from your hard work when you retire by recouping some of what you have paid in the system. You can't because I have sat on my butt my whole life and am using all those government programs you've paid for so I can live off of your hard work.

Remember, Jesus was the ultimate Christian but even he said it was better to teach a man to fish (hard work fulfillment) than simply giving him one (charity).

Economically, it makes a lot of sense to pay 100% for health insurance for kids and young folks, eh?  That's an investment in future production and contribution to da country.   Makes little sense for da country to pay for Medicare for retirees.   They're just takin' from da system.   They could have saved up for health care costs in their retirement, eh?  And if they didn't, let 'em die in da streets and reduce da surplus population!   Most of us gave up flirtin' with Ayn Rand when we were teenagers, though, and embraced Scoutin' values.

Funny. Actually, most of us stopped flirting with socialist and 60s style sociology when they realized that the government cannot provide for you as well as YOU can provide for you. Remember the 80s? Funny how all those hippies threw their views about wealth accumulation out the window when it meant that THEY could have large sums of money. Nothing like selling out what you thought you believed in, huh?

Payin' taxes is just regular, ordinary good citizenship, eh?    I don't want to teach boys to complain about taxes, or jury duty, or military service, or any of da things that are just what we citizens have decided to do together.

Paying our FAIR taxes is good citizenship. Just as working for a living rather than living off the taxpayer is good citizenship. I have no issue with very limited social welfare programs. I have a huge problem with people here illegally using them or people living off them long term as if they are an entitlement program for those who don't give a darn. Those truly in need due to illness or injury, that's another story. I have mates that came back from Iraq and Afghanistan that are STILL waiting for help from those government programs you think are working. Private charities have done more in one month for them than the government has done in 5 years. It is hard to take anyone who advocates government as a caretaker of social welfare seriously with the horrid track record they have in this area.

As for that 'of color' comment by Krampus, the tech schools are quite open to all persons and in this area they are represented by minorities at rates roughly the same as the proportion in the population. OTOH, the 4-year public college near me has stringent entry requirements, but they do want more 'diversity'. Nevertheless everyone has to meet those entry requirements - unless you have special athletic skills it seems. But that's another story.

But there are still quotas. When a kid with 1310 on his SATs and an A average cannot get in to a prestigious tech school because "his slot" is full, tells me that the system is not picking the best and brightest, but is still looking at skin color to determine who get in. Worse, when kids get financial aid when both parents are making 6 figures, there's something wrong with the system.

Maybe I'm the "troublemaker." They do a leader's meeting when I have to do BORs. Then this leaders' meeting at camp when 1 leader is scouting out a new trail for the AT folks since we cannot do the original trail due to lack of permits, and I'm with the Cub Scouts in Cub World.

 

Am I paranoid, or am I paranoid enough?

 

Seriously though. this  statement says it all IMHO

 

"lack of common vision and unified leadership."

Yeah, @@qwazse is wise. This is the major reason almost any project fails, whether in big business or in volunteer organizations. You need buy in from the key stakeholders (adults and scouts). If the adults don't back it, they will surely submarine you every chance they get. If they Scouts don't buy it, then even with the adult backing you are pushing rope.

We have this problem years ago when our unit made the change. We simply had to "wait out" the nay sayers until they left, then went about our change.

Hang in there. Change will happen. It may take time but when you are successful it will be worth the wait.

Some good advice here, I would add this:

• Pick your segments and resupply points carefully. As @@vumbi said, picking your segments wisely is important. Water and food re-supply are key. There are some "trail angels" -- folks that supply hikers in a trading post fashion -- on various segments.
• Have someone waiting on your hiking grid in case you need some extracted and taken home for non-emergencies.
• Have a plan for emergency situations. Where will you get help? How will you contact emergency personnel?
• Make sure you have 1-2 people trained in wilderness first aid. This is required by BSA for anything considered in the "back country".
• Consider renting or buying a personal locator beacon. Have a weather radio too.
• Have gear and endurance shakedowns before you go. Nothing stink more than troubles that could have been avoided on the trail.
• Make sure EVERYONE knows how to use a map and compass. Make sure EVERYONE has their ten essentials on them at all times. Most search and rescue problems start because someone wandered off without following procedure or having the right gear.
• Train everyone on Outdoor Ethics Awareness. Packing out trash, properly managing human waste and such are really important on the trail.
• I would avoid the shelters. Most campers are not as good about food and waste management as Scouts should be. Those things are breeding grounds for rats, mice and vending machines for other critters.
• @@TAHAWK is right about certain locations, including Harper's Ferry. It is expensive to eat there unless you live in the DC area and are used to their inflated prices. I would DEFINITELY visit Harper's Ferry, but I would make my own breakfast and eat it on top of Maryland Heights. Breakfast for sunrise or dinner at sunset, your boys will remember that view the rest of their lives...I know I still do.

Hi,

You all were very helpful with the last question about birds. He is working on the soils and rocks portion now. He collected and ID'd the five dif rocks, but is confused about collecting/IDing soils found in dif layers of a soil profile. He can easily do the top two layers, but how is he to get the deeper layers?

 

Thank you.

River or creek beds. Best place to find the strata. Make sure you go when it is VERY dry and no rain forecast upstream.

@@desertrat77, the three people I hired were SAC command/control specialists with two years of community college and two years post tour at UTSA. Beat the hell out of the UT techies with $100k of debt and no work experience.

I'm sure these entitled students want Yale and Harvard free education.  Instead would they be willing to go 2 years in a state technical college, then 2 at a state university for 2 years?  I doubt it. 

State techs are expensive for out of state. Hard to get in to for in-state unless you are illegal or "of color". That leaves private schools. 

Like I said, if the playing field were level, and we let supply and demand work, tuition would come down. Dinkering with it has lead to everyone getting diplomas BUT their debit to income ratio is HIGHER than had they not gone to college and the market been allowed to find equilibrium. 

Yet another example of the government intending one thing, but the opposite happens.

Social security would be more successful if you could opt out and invest the money yourself. Those who feel they need help can invest the money through an agent the government if need be. But you aren't allowed to take out of someone else's pot. What you earn is yours, that way you don't have people loafing around waiting to steal out of a life time of someone else's hard work.

Education is free through 12th grade. If you need more, work for it. Save up. Part of the reason college tuition has sky-rocketed is because everyone now is going to college. While the demand goes up, the supply also goes up. It is one of the only markets where the laws of supply and demand are not operating properly. Why? Intervention by the government.

I told my kids to go two years to community college and then transfer in to the 4 year college they want that piece of paper from. There's ZERO reason to spend $50k/year for the same piece of paper that you can get for a fraction of the cost. No employer is going to ask if you spent all four years at Hi Tech University; they just want to know if you got your diploma. Why be $200k in debt when you can be $50-100k or less in debt?