Krampus

An Eagle should be a leader - no question about it.  Why do you think we have boys lead a service project?

Leadership is a spectrum though. How do you measure whether someone is a leader?

That's...just...too...cool!!!

I once tried to pitch backpacking in Dolly Sods as "just like Skyrim, only you move your character with your feet instead of your thumbs." At the end of a day of rocks and bogs, the most-avid video-gamer in the crew (for her, this was her first back-country hike) gave me a most evil stare.

Fond, FOND memories of Dolly Sods, Seneca Rocks and the Monongehela National Forest.

 

That's what an Eagle is.  The camping, knots, service projects, etc. are the means to make young men into leaders who are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, etc.  They aren't the goal.  The goal is making young men into leaders who can make a Scoutmaster and parent proud.

Disagree on the last sentence. If you throw out the whole skills topic then leadership has to go to. 

You can have a guy who lives the Oath and Law and not really be a leader, can't you? If he does all that but is still not "a leader" is he no longer Eagle-worthy?

I have an interesting problem. We elected a new SPL in March. Unfortunately he's moving this summer with 3 months left in his term. My ASPLs are all chomping at the bit to be SPL.

At the PLC I left them to decide how to resolve the issue. I was expecting them to come up with a contrived rotation allowing each one to take a chance at leading. Why? They are close friends and likely didn't want to step on one another. I figured they'd construct a method to share power until the election in September.

Instead, after about a 5 minute discussion of several ideas, they rested on having a new election. They figured that, despite what they might individually want....or want as a leadership group, ultimately the power resided with the troop to elect the SPL. They went further to recommend that the SPL leaving be given a leadership project while he's finding a new troop so he doesn't lose any time toward his POR. 

I love the feeling you get when you realize you weren't even needed in a meeting.

My PLC was struggling with getting some of the newer, younger Scouts out for events. They hit on the idea to make a Minecraft themed event. There's a recycle park nearby and they collected hundreds of boxes. We have a field near the CO, so they set up the field as a Minecraft field. Guys worked in Minecraft Patrols to build their fort, collect food and then had to "craft" (e.g. cook the food patrol style), etc. It was all the stuff they'd normally do on a camp out but with the word "Minecraft" put in front of everything.

A passing Cub Scout group saw the event and joined in.

Epilogue: At the end of the event one group said, "It would be great to do that without all the boxes!", The Instructor retorted, "We do, it's called a camp out." Registration for the June camp out soared by 20 kids...and ten adults.

lol Cisco Cert tech here (CCNA AND CCNP) gotcha covered

Me too, but most folks aren't.

I still laugh at Sbux how open people leave their laptops, phones, tablets, etc.

 

 

Another example of the phenomenon is the Journey to Excellence crew defining a movie-watching "lock-in" as a "weekend campout."

 

That's clearly a STEM activity.

We do, the person that operates the device also has an Ipad they use with it.  Very easy and Very convenient .  Just remember there is a fee! This fee can be passed on as a convenience charge to the user.

Careful with those. System like that can be hacked very easily. You have to make sure you have a secure network connection when you run the transaction. The device using the reader also needs to have Bluetooth shut down or else I can see everything. Everything.

For me it is:

• Knows his core scouting skills (camping, first aid, cooking, orienteering, citizenship, etc.) well enough that he can demonstrate prowess in several of these areas.
• He's a leader. Doesn't need to be Super SPL. Does need to be someone who you can hand things off to and you know they will get done. That can be Guide, Instructor, SPL, PL or Librarian. Everyone has a different leadership style so you recognize that and allow for that.
• He embodies the Law and Oath as much as he can. No one can be 100% so don't expect a Norman Rockwell painting, but when this young man is around you know that he is honest, kind and sincere.
• Is not in Scouting for the bling or Eagle. You know these Scouts when you see them. You know the Scouts who truly care about the program and it's ideals, rather than the guys who simply are there to make Eagle and leave.
• And if you find a Scout who has all of this but does NOT make Eagle, they are still Eagles to me. The patch does not make you an Eagle. What is in your heart and how you carry yourself makes you an Eagle.

Yah, @@Krampus, I think we all have to decide at some point whether it's really important to beat our chests about bein' right on some point or another, eh?  That's da "ego flu" Eagledad is talkin' about.   Lots of times other folks are completely WRONG, and the best choice is to be supportive of them, eh?   Because pickin' fights is wrong too.

The problem here is you have a 17 year old who has done the work. Who knows how long before he ages out. 10 additional camping days is 5 more camp outs. Depending on how often the unit camps that could be a minimum of 5 additional months wait. What if he gets sick and cannot make a camp out? Let's not trivialize this as simply "goin' campin'". This was adding a large number of additional camping to a kid's schedule. This was anything but a simple case of a few nights more....that's nearly half a year more camping!!!

I agree picking fights is wrong. But let's be clear: The Scout did not pick the fight. Even Scouts need to stand their ground sometimes to show a bully that they cannot win. We tell boys all the time to stand up for the weak, stand their ground, pick their battles.

When did being a good Scout become synonymous with rolling over to injustice?

You are correct that this was in part about ego....the ego of the adults in that unit who could not see that they were doing things wrong. We have enough information about the SM to offer opinions. When he's that far off the path you need to shine that light so people who don't know that this is VERY wrong know what they can do about it...and warn others.

This is not a simple case of an SM and CC making a mistake. This is vindictive, non-scouting behavior from two adults running their own program.

Some of the more technically advanced members of our committee want to accept credit cards for monthly campout fees, summer camp, high adventure activities, etc.  Technically I'm not in their league. I do  have a cell phone, but don't facebook, tweet, or text.  

 

Does anyone's unit out there accept charge cards for their fees?  Good?  Bad?  Horror stories?  Thanks in advance for your opinion and experiences.

 

Dale

We do and use it through our website. You end up paying a % on large payments unless the bank account is linked through PayPal. The point of sale apps take a % so you have to charge your members more to cover the fee.

We settled on taking payments online for anything over $40 and baking the fee in to the cost of the event. This way the unit does not incur any cost and the fee the end user pays is minimal.

We take checks for large payments because doing so online usually means a 5% fee added to the cost. No one wants to pay $40 worth of a fee for the convenience of paying online or in person.

This is something to do your research on and see if it is really worth the time and cost. We were processing 75+ checks a month, so offering online payment did cut down on the time it took to manage the money. We found batching larger payments and enforcing payment deadlines (e.g., having a "pay day" so to eliminate guess work on when to bring your check) helped to cut down time and processing. 

http://www.amazon.com/Gold-Bond-Friction-Defense-Ounce/dp/B007VC9DKI/ref=sr_1_3_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1462373361&sr=1-3&keywords=chafing+lotion

Is good. Also note sometimes even men can get a bit a yeast infection in the groin area in humid weather. A tube of generic "monostat" cream is always in my toiletries kit. Just apply at night. Wrap it in duct tape for a more manly look.

Reminds me of this commercial...

can you point to a particular product?

Here you go.

Used this past summer on the CDT and it worked great. It is considered a smellable even though it does not have a scent....at least that we humans can smell.

Company makes other stuff for hunters.

@@Eagle94-A1, thought you might find this helpful in pin pointing where your unit is on one Scouter's continuum of youth leadership. Interesting take on the subject.

http://scoutmastercg.com/ladder-of-youth-leadership-infographic/

OU got my daughter. Got her back for a year, and now she'll work in TX. Any chance your scout will want to roll specialty steel in PA three years from now? Heck, who are we kidding? Some VA tech grad will have built a robot to do his job by then.

Every is working here. Been the best place to live and work since 2003. Nearly recession proof. And you get to keep more of your money.

Texas deregulated tuition at state schools. Tuition increases out-paced inflation by a LARGE margin. Contributions to the schools have continued to be high. Drop out rates are low. Student enrollment has increased.

The legislature is not happy because the colleges are making tons of money on the backs of in-state and out of state students. 200k for an undergrad degree? Not worth it.

OK, I accept that. But you classified all scouts working on palms as to not doing something worthy. You don't even have and idea why the op's son wants to earn Palms. You threw him under the bus of your opinion.  

 

What bothers me about comments like that is that it judges a scouts decision, whatever it is.  Same goes with how Eagles and SPL's are disrespected here if they aren't following personal opinions of scouters on this forum. "I believe in patrol method and the Eagles in my troop will.....". 

 

My point is that we all let our Egos hold back scouts in some ways or others. I certainly don't have a defense for this SM, but that some of us don't see ourselves in the mirror sometimes bothers me. 

 

It's me, I'm getting old and cranky. My apologies to all.

 

Barry

What I said was this (below). To put it in context, it was in response to a Scouter's son who is just finishing his Eagle, no or 1 palm, and worried that dad (making him really know his stuff) "cost him" a shot a multiple palms.

No one, and I mean no one worth their salt that knows a lick about BSA, will give a darn about how many palms a Scout has when it comes to jobs or college. Tell you son that from someone who hires people and sits on a college admissions board. 

 

It has been my expereience the kids with 2+ palms don't interview well and tend to be 1" deep and a mile wide. The real Scouts show no matter if they are Eagles at 13 or 18 or never made Eagle at all. It's about the character, not the patch on their chest.

 

I am sure he will realize what you did for him...but it might take a while. 

I didn't throw anyone under the bus working on palms. I simply pointed out that anyone who knows anything about Scouting knows that palms are based mostly on MB accumulation and 3 months of a leadership role. It is continuing ed for Eagles. No one in the business world I know ever asks, or cares about, how many palm you have. Heck, most people won't know what a palm is.

I have to laugh because my dad has the Distinguished Flying Cross with 4 silver clusters and a "V" device. Looks like hell in the display case. He's most proud of the award itself, the "fruit and nuts" as he calls it (all the devices) he couldn't give a rat's patotee about.

My point to TampaTurtle, taken in context, was that his son won't care later in life how many palms he got. He will be proud he got his Eagle...and he will be prouder still that his dad held him to a higher standard than all of his friends who got Eagle at 14 with 37 palms.

Yes, but your comment makes hypocrites of all of us. In another conversation today, scouters are putting down scouts who work for palms.

Meh...no, Barry. I think we were pointing out that palms didn't matter, character did. It wasn't about palms or Eagle or anything. In the end you are judged by your character. Let's not take things out of context.

Krampus, I am not holding my breath on that last one.

 

I told him that IF a college admissions board looked at his record it would probably look better if he stayed on and showed some commitment as an 'adult'. 

Bingo. We all know how much it says about a person when another adult accepts a youth-turned-adult in to a program and put them in a position of trust. That more than anything else in the world speaks volumes about the young man.

As far as gratitude showing goes, it will come. I seem recall it took marriage and my first born to realize that I was wrong all those years and my parents were right. Now blessed with teenagers, I call my parents weekly to thank them for not beating me senseless, driving me to the deepest part of Death Valley and leaving me for vulture fodder.

They just laugh, say "you're welcome", hang up and enjoy retirement.

@@Eagle94-A1, thy name be Sisyphus. I don't envy your task. Been there and it was a looooong road to where we are now. Not sure I could fight that fight more than once.
 

Well, when BSA force youth out at 18 you kind of imply "they are done". I heard a rumor that Venturing may stop at 18 son. I had to break it two him there was no way he could earn any Eagle Palms since he just times out. He is kinda mad at me  I made him "do things the hard way" when he saw 14 or 15 year old Eagles with 14 Merit Badges up and out so they can pad their college application resume. That really brought the whole Eagle quality control argument home hard. But to be honest he was not ready for the boring, bureaucratic slog that is the Eagle process a year ago. But I digress.

No one, and I mean no one worth their salt that knows a lick about BSA, will give a darn about how many palms a Scout has when it comes to jobs or college. Tell you son that from someone who hires people and sits on a college admissions board.

It has been my expereience the kids with 2+ palms don't interview well and tend to be 1" deep and a mile wide. The real Scouts show no matter if they are Eagles at 13 or 18 or never made Eagle at all. It's about the character, not the patch on their chest.

I am sure he will realize what you did for him...but it might take a while.

Litigation is an adversarial approach.  When yeh come in to a meetin' with that attitude, you've set yourself on a course to create adversity.  When you've chosen to create adversity with da Key 3 of the troop, I wouldn't really expect yeh to get anywhere with da troop.   They represent the opinion of the majority of the parents and probably the chartered partner, and their role is to stand up for those folks and what they feel is right.   They're the folks runnin' the program, and they'll continue to do what they feel is best for all the boys.  That shouldn't surprise anybody. 

Let's be clear about a few things, @Beavah:

• The unit leaders created the adversarial atmosphere here, not the Scout or his family.
• The unit leaders should be acting with the Scout's best interest at heart by communicating with him openly and early to avoid putting him in this situation.
• The unit leaders WERE WRONG in more than just their application of the rules, requirements and policies.
• The unit leaders were acting in an unscouting fashion which caused this escalation.
• The unit leaders, as adults and trained leaders, should know better and hold themselves to a higher standard.

When adults who are unit leaders fail so miserably it is THEY, not the Scout, that forced this issue on to the course it took. The unit leaders could have been honest and pleasant during the meeting. They weren't. They acted the opposite of the Law and Oath. Nothing excuses that.

This unit gets what it deserves. I only hope that no other Scouts are put through such shenanigans.

A smart state should do one of two things, eh?   Provide an excellent set of colleges and universities that attract kids from other states, and (if necessary) provide free or reduced tuition to strong students from other states.

 

Oklahoma is doing that now for Texas students. Big draw.

One Scout is bucking the family trend and going to OU (family is 4 generations Texas grads). Turmoil to say the least, but he's getting in-state tuition and he got in...was wait listed at Texas.

I ask everyone reading this - how many District volunteers does your unit supply?  If the answer is less than one, that is the problem.  Just like an unhealthy unit who can't get enough leaders to fill all of the required committee and leadership positions, when there aren't enough District volunteers they are likely to take any warm body to fill a seat, rather than select the best prospects.  You also end up with volunteers filling more than one District role.

I'd ask the question a bit differently: How many of those district positions are truly needed? What roles to they play in supporting the needs of the units? Many times those positions seem to exist just because they always have. One look tells you that you could downsize most district positions to those key positions needed to support the units in the district.

In my own district we have plenty of UCs -- one for every two units. I only see mine when he wants to do FOS. I hear from him one other time during the year when he wants my JTE paperwork (which is submitted with recharter).

If we got rid of the awards banquets, needless dinners and other events created for back-slap happy district folks and REALLY focused on helping units in the district, you wouldn't need that many positions.

For the record, we provided 6-8 people every year for nearly 15 years prior to pulling our district support. Every single person said it was a total waste of their time. As a unit we still staff events for them (run totally by our unit). We just don't play the district game.