Zahnada

OGE, Sorry for the confusion. The behavior is unacceptable no matter who does it. I actually forgot if I had a point in that particular paragraph. In any case, such racial stereotypes like the "black gangsta" are used by multiple races. Does that still mean they're racial stereotypes? Just a thought.

scoutldr, You said: "When given the choice, I check the box for "native American." I was born in Pennsylvania, so I guess that describes me. It doesn't ask for the nationality of my ancestors. " I don't agree with this at all. You can rationalize all you want, but you know what race "Native American" implies. You know what people will assume when they read a form from a "Native American." In this sense, you are misrepresenting yourself and therefore you are lying. If you must protest against the ethnicity section of forms, then don't fill it out or write in "Not Applicable" or someth

It makes you wonder why this is such a widely discussed issue. There's something about it that brings out arguments in people. Maybe because it's an issue that most of us feel strongly about, but we're not willing to compromise. It's too bad that we can't reach some kind of middle-ground. But I think we talk about it because we all know it is a problem that won't go away. BSA's hand will be forced again in the future and we'll all need to stand up and defend what we believe. I would like to throw one thing on the table before everyone abandons this topic for the next month (at which time

There may not be as much overt racism these days, but there're tons of subtle or aversive racism. Basically, it's not socially acceptable to be a racist anymore. Many people speak against it. But these same people have very subtle racist attitudes towards other races. They get very anxious and uncomfortable when around other races so they attempt to avoid such confrontations whenever possible. These people then decry overt racism, but often refuse to see the racism in society. They will say that there is no racism except for the actions of a few individuals. This is all an attempt to maintain

Bob White, I definitely do not have as much knowledge as you do about BSA membership rules. But if I interpret you correctly, does this mean that I am breaking the membership rules? I believe I have stated publicly (at least on this forum) that I do not agree with BSA policy. If this is enough to evict me from scouting then I must seriously question if scouting still represents American values. But this all seems so far-fetched that I must have misunderstood your last post. But even if I am up for removal from BSA, I think I'll add to the reasons for it. Granted that I don't know TJ

"You missed the point. I wasn't comparing gays to criminals. My point is if you let gays in then where does it stop!" Ed, I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth. It's a tactic that's used all too often in this forum. But we are in agreement on part of this issue. There does need to be a clear line. Safety always comes first. BSA is not a rehabilitation center and I wouldn't want any members who put the boys at risk. The disagreement is that I don't believe that gays do put the boys at risk. I don't think they should be included in the list of "undesirable elements". But then

Rooster, I think I understand where you're coming from, but I can't help but feel there're flaws in the argument. There's a generalization in your last post that gay men engage in same sex activity. Just to clarify, is this the criteria we're using to define who is gay? I would argue that not all gay men, and especially gay boys, necessarily are sexually active. Would you accept a person who had strong feelings toward the same sex but refrained from acting on those urges? And I would also point out that there are plenty of non-gay people who sexually act out against the Bible. Anyone

Ed, We definitely take different stances toward the morality of homosexuality. Your last comment draws parallels between gays and criminals. No matter what our stance on the issue, I don't want to see gays compared to sex offenders. I would not want a sex offender around boys because they are a danger to the boys and safety always comes first. If you honestly believe that having your son around a gay man puts him in danger, then I'll let your comment stand. However, I'm afraid it will affect my opinion of you. If I simply read too deeply into your comment, then I apologize.

Ed, You raise a central point to this issue. BSA is a private organization and should have the right to choose it's membership. Then why is BSA being held to different standards than other organizations? I really don't know. I can only offer one real reason. Sexuality is vague. There is not much argument about the religious policy because that's pretty cut and dry. You're atheist or you're not. Same with BSA not allowing girls. There's a clear definition of what is a girl and what is a boy. But what is "avowed" and what is "gay"? Is a gay person someone who engages in sexual activit

Bob, comparisons between the BSA's origins and any new group are faulty. Over nearly a century, things change. And the circumstances are much different. If nobody's taking initiative, why don't you start up an organization for them? Some people are fighting for social acceptance and are using BSA as an example. Others want to help the boys. Scouting is a great organization and it cannot simply be replaced in a few years. But here's an honest question I have. What if the Supreme Court overturned the decision and made BSA accept gays. Would the people in this forum who are against suc

Bob White, I think resources are a major problem to other groups forming their alternative scouting programs. Gays are a huge minority in this country and while a large portion of the population will defend them verbally, few will support them financially (which is the case for many groups). Also, how can you develop a program that rivals BSA? Scouting has some of the best land in the country and despite budget cuts, we still have plenty of financial backing. There may actually be plans to start up alternative groups, but it will take an enormous amount of resources to bring it to the nat

Rooster, I don't like politicians either. So I agree with you completely that we don't need spokesmen who beat around the bush trying not to make anyone mad. However, I think a forceful point can be made without an angry tone. The "fence sitters" are the exact people who we need to win back. This letter and its tone receives great support in the scouting community, but we already knew much of the truth. We also already agree that BSA is a wonderful organization that does so much for boys. We don't need to be persuaded of that fact anymore. We need to appeal to the fence

In another post I advocated that the BSA needs to defend themselves against attacks. This letter does just that. If the letter is accurate then the United Way is definitely at fault. I wouldn't hold it against an organization to stop donations to BSA, but breaking contracts is wrong. This is the type of defense of BSA that we need. And it didn't simply repeat the rhetoric of "moral role model." With all that being said, the tone was much too strong. The point of such a letter is to win back people who may not know too much about scouting. Such a harshly toned letter would simply turn off

A lot of this goes back to the what is "cool" argument. A lot of boys just don't think scouting or the uniform is cool. I don't like the current uniform. It is uncomfortable and the old shorts were much too short for the current times. However, I personally think that a scout shirt looks stupid with jeans. The uniform is something that only looks good when it is complete. I don't know how to inform boys that when they wear an incomplete uniform, or don't tuck in their shirt, that they don't look cool. They just look like they don't know what they want or what they're doing.

Certain groups and individuals have targeted BSA as the battle field for equal rights protests. No amount of PR could change their views. But Bob White has made a point that very effectively supports what I previously said. "Keep in mind that many of the things listed are misconceptions deliberately started and spread by individuals and groups with specific political agendas." Most certainly! And where do these misconceptions spread to? To MILLIONS of uninformed Americans. The liberal side of this country has been fed these misconceptions and have begun to use them as the mental base of w

In regards to United Way's donation cuts, I feel BSA is largely responsible. I'm not talking about the actual controversial policy. I think BSA has done a poor job of explaining that policy to the public. There are differing views of Boy Scouts in the country these days. A powerful view is one of scouts being involved in the community, strong moral characters, and good leaders. Another view (held more by teenagers) is of scouts being the "dorks" in uniforms doing arts and crafts. But a new view is emerging and is definitely becoming powerful in liberal areas like where I live. This is a v

Bob White says, "We are not talking about calling parents up and saying "do you know what Billy said?". We are talking about a leader, Ed in this case, who said if a parent asked him directly about his discussion during a Scoutmaster conference, would tell the parent that "it was confidential" and would not discuss it." I'm starting to agree with this more, but not entirely. I don't think we need to be tattle-tails. If a parent asks directly about their then the process becomes more black and white. But the grey area is when the son says something important about his life, and the parents

I'm still not sure where I come down on this issue, but allow me to play a little "Devil's Advocate." With all this talk about full disclosure with parents, where is the line? There are big things and there are small things. Both can seem huge in the eyes of a boy. I don't like working with hypotheticals, but I can't think of a better way to make my point. Let's say you're in an SM conference and it comes out that the boy (aged 13-15) is losing faith in his religion. He wants to go experiment around with other faiths but doesn't want his parents to know for fear that they will preve

There is a very interesting debate going on in the "Here we go again..." topic of the Issues and Politics forum. I know that many of you avoid that forum (which makes you a smarter person than I) but I thought you might have some good things to say. It starts around page 3 of the topic. Go past Bob White and myself ranting back and forth. The discussion is this: What do you do when a boy wants to tell you something but asks that you not tell his parents? This is a valuable conversation for every scout leader and I hope you jump in with your views.

I don't know which side I'm on with this issue, so I'll play a little bit of Devil's advocate. What do you say when a boy comes up to you and says, "I have something very important to tell you. Promise not to tell my parents."? This is very tricky. Most times, it will be something small. But the boy obviously feels he cannot turn to his parents at this moment. It is a cry for help. But should we grant that help at the expense of the parents? This is tough. How do you handle that situation?

Bob White, I'm afraid we just aren't communicating. I'll make one last attempt to clear up my views for you. This will be my final word on the matter. If you want to discuss it further, we can use private messages instead of forcing everyone to read the same arguments over, and over. "We are not their parent, We Are not their confessor, We are not their psychologist or caseworker. It is inappropriate for a scout leader to act as any of those things." Absolutely correct. I have said nothing that would point to the contrary. However, we ARE their friend. We ARE role models. And w

Bob, Your counterarguments misrepresent some of the arguments explained here. So let's take this step-by-step. 1. A scout is found to be gay. 2. By the rules, if he is sure of his sexuality and "avowed" (this is a really vague rule that I will probably have issue with in another thread) then he cannot be a scout. 3. As adult leaders, it is our job to inform him of this decision. 4. Offer alternative programs to him. 5. If his sexualiy seems to be a major controversy in his life, offer resources that may help him cope. You imply that I want to sit down and give the boy i

Joni4TA, You addressed the issue I was concerned about with my posts. I was worried that my arguments may be read as equating homosexuality to a disease. I really did not want to give the impression that I see gays as wearing a huge "HELP ME!!" sign and that I would be their savior. I don't believe that homosexuality is a disease. And I don't believe that people need to rush in and involve themselves in other people's lives and personal problems all the time. However, as adults that deal with youth, we need to recognize that homosexuality can have some consequences for the boy. Many

Bob, Very well worded post. I apologize if I confused you with my beliefs about the importance of leadership in scouting. I see leadership as the "tool" that scouting offers and that no other group can really match. Your statement about the "mission" of scouting is well taken. As well as the connection between the mission and membership. However, that is not the point we have been debating. This has not been a discussion about whether gays should or should not be allowed in scouting. How we carry out that mission is more important than the fact that it exists. What is the miss

Bob, Unfortunately no program is a replacement for Boy Scouts. That is why it saddens me when boys cannot or do not take advantage of all that BSA has to offer. Boy Scouts has the whole package. However, there are other organizations that have some similarities to scouting. Mostly it is local. I suggest you look into some of the youth programs in your area. It will help you understand what I am talking about and it will provide valuable resources for your troop. If the boy enjoys camping, there are several outdoor organizations in my area. Some specialize in backpacking, some i