willysjeep

OK, I would like to amend my comment above. Offical equipment has taken a little slide in the past years but is still a lot better than all of the foreign knockoffs. I still think that the prices are quite excessive, but the quality is a little better for BSA gear than foreign junk. I'm in the process of locating an older offical BSA mess kit.

The problems I thought might occour never did, but it has made me think a little about how my SM does act once in a while. I haven't really pushed it yet either. It's not really a problem, but in times past we have had a few point of view conflicts which I chose to let go. I guess him and I don't share the same POV on a lot of things, but usually I figure that it isn't worth a big depate just because of my past experiences with him. Like I said, they were probably isolated incidents that won't ever come up again, but I don't want to push it.

I was under the impression that the OA sash was to be worn at all dress functions, not only at OA functions. I suppose it would make sense to wear a MB sash to troop events and reserve the OA sash for OA events, a lodge flap gives everybody in the OA enough reckognition (sp?) at non OA events and it saves you from being asked what the diferent sashes mean.

OK, talked to a few people and found out the guide to safe scouting does discourage sheath knives, although a lot of people in my troop feel as I do. I think it looks like I would be better served by not making an issue of this. RIght now our troop has no set rule, but they are discouraged. Discouraged is not banned, so if I do catch any heat for using a sheath knife atleast I won't be breaking any rules. If I try to get some kind of directive passed by my troop there will probably be a big fuss and a rule aganst them will be passsed, but if I use mine safely and defend it if I do come under fire then I can use it on some occasions. I still think compared to the kitchen knives without sheaths in scout cook kits a sheath knife is not dangerous at all and should not be discouraged.

I am an experienced scout, but a young scouter. Currently I'm an ASM. I would not really be going over my SM's head here because in our committee meetings there is a set time for people to bring up their own pet topics that they would like to mention at the PLC. I would also not really be looking for a rule to be carved in stone, only for a guideline or a statement of some kind. The issue really isn't sheath knives I guess. The issue for me is freedom from rules that don't make sense. Granted, there may not be a great reason for sheath knives but that's no reason to ban them. Part of the explanation for the scout law is a scout doesn't break unfair rules but seeks to have them changed. Mabey I'm being overly paranoid here about offending my SM. I am a relatively new leader, but I'm an Eagle from this troop too. I don't want to rock the boat too much, but I hate rules that make no sense, especially when absolutely nobody benifits from them. Another thing is that my SM may have just used the falling on his sword thing as a bluff under extreme conditions in the past. He never really has, obviously, so it could just be something from the past that was meant to stay there. I know the PLC is supposed to have a big part in the decision too, but I don't want to win them over and then have my SM shut them down. Our SM once exersized his executive powers when the PLC made a decision about a discipline issue he didn't agree with. He does things that I don't like, but not enough that I would want him replaced. I don't think too many other people might take the job and I'd hate to have the troop fold because of me, so I am walking on eggshells with my SM. He's an irreplaceable item. I want to atleast get some conversation about the topic, but not at the cost of loosing an adult who has contributed a lot to my troop and who has made a lot of friends here. I'll just have to see how it goes and play it safe. Nice to know that atleast a few scouters out there think somewhat like me. Even if sheath knives aren't a big part of the troop program, why should banning them be? Like I said, I'm going to play it safe and go slow. If I don't win anybody over I'll drop it, but if I do have some success and run into trouble with my SM then so be it, I'll take it up with him. All I can do is try otherwise nothign will ever change.(This message has been edited by willysjeep)

OK, sorry if any of tis is a repeat but I didn't have a chance to read allof the posts. Take a small paint can or an old sterno can if it seals tight and clean it out. FIll it with cotton balls and soak them with denatured alcohol for a small camp stove. Use the frying pan and pie tin of a scout mess kit for a mini dutch oven. FOr cooking a turkey on a tripod they used to cook chickens on a string. They'd build a fire with a reflector behind it and hang the chicken over a pan a foot or two from the fire opposite the reflector. Turn it once in a while. This would probably work a lot better with cornish game hens or smaller birds. If you don't have clay to cook potatoes or fish in the coals paper wetted with water is supposed to work. If you use newspaper the ink will bleed out but it is usually made of soybean derivatives anyways. Try open fire cooking on an idiot proof meal like hotdogs to raise spirits on campouts that go sour. Bring extra trash bags on every campout. DOn't be afraid of old equipment or methods. Many a night has been spent under a canvas tent and wool blanket. If you are getitng bored with camping or want to challenge your troop try making a historic campout some time. Seasoned salt is your friend! ALcohol prep pads in a first aid kit make good emergency fire starters. If you want to start a fire with a magnifying glass really fast, get a full page magnifier. They cost a few dollars and are so big they can start a fire wit the sunlight from breaks in the clouds. Touching steel wool to the terminals of a 6 or 9 volt battery can start it glowing. A few blows and it will burst into flames. Potassium Permangenate (Kondies Crystals) and pure antifreeze (Or pure glycerin) will also make fire, that's how liquid match kits work. Zippo lighters work even after being dunked. Just blow the water out of them and go to town. Carry extra flints under the wicking. Ivory or Kirks Castile soap work better than most in cool water. Dryer sheets are suposed to repel mosquitos. If your nylon rain poncho starts to leek, dry it on a clothes dryer on a low setting and then spread it out flat. The heat is supposed to melt the coating on the nylon and seal some of the little holes. That's what they say about army ponchos atleast. Don't be afraid to sleep without a tent when you don't need one. It saves time and can make a mroe memorable experience. Pole barn nails make good sturdy tent stakes. 1/4" bolts make good backpack clevice pins and they don't squeak as much, or break ever.

OK, PLEASE don't take me the wrong way here. Our scoutmaster is a great guy who puts a lot into our program but he has been quite stubborn in the past. He has never come out and said "If you don't like it I'll leave" but once in a while he reminds us "If anybody says the word I'll step down". I haven't asked him about this issue yet and I don't want to push him to say anything like that, but if he says no and I keep working at it he's gonna probably not take it too well. He doesn't like it when somebody contradicts him. I'm thinking about bringing the sheath knife issue up to the whole troop committee at the next meeting. If I can convince a few of them it will be a little harder for one person to put their foot down. I really hate playing the Scout politocal game but if it means keeping a great scoutmaster who likes things to go his way and still changing a few minds about this nonexistant sheath knife ban. I really don't want to make this guy mad, but then again if he would actually quit over something like this mabey we would be better off, but like I said I'm friends with this guy but I don't know just how he might react, but I haven't asked yet. I'm picking my words and trying to make my point convincing enough to win him over too. If I do this well enough mabey he will actually agree with me. I don't think he would actually quit the troop, but like he said he would step down inf somebody asked. I just hope he doesn't take my attempt to repeal the nonexistant ban on sheath knives as some kind of attack on him. Well, guess I'll find out next committee meeting.

Remember too that a sheath knife can be carried safely in a pack too, not on the belt. A substantial sheath is required for axes too, so making one mandatory for sheath knives shouldn't be too difficult. I'm actually afraid of one thing. If I try to convince my Socutmaster to allow them he'll use the same defense he allways does aganst things he doesn't like. He allways says that if we don't agree with him we can ask him and he'll quit the troop. I'm afraid he might actually do it if I try to get sheath knives allowed on troop campouts. He's really toutchey about when people don't agree with him. I'm leery about even asking him about it because I know he probably doesn't like the idea, even if he doesn't know why, and I don't want to make bad blood between im and me over something like that. I think I might just casually ask if the troop has a sheath knife rule, and if we do then mabey I can talk him into letting me try to convince the board to make a decision on them. Like I said, I'm afraid if I try too hard to get a pro-sheath knife directive I might offend him, or worse make him threaten to leave. He's a great guy, but doesn't take kindly to people debating his ideas. Like I said, I'm going to test the waters a little and if he really doesn't object to the idea too much mabey I can talk the board into passing a motion allowing, say single edged blades less than 4" without a double cross guard and equipped with a scoutmaster approved sheath, and used in a proper manor to be allowed on scout functions. I'll give it a try.

Starting in the 1920's Boyscouts have served om Mackinac. The camp is called Mackinac Island Scout Service Camp, or MISSC for short. The fort at mackinac had been abandoned for years and had fallen into disrepair. Vandals had carved their names all over the woodwork in many historic buildings. The first scout service camp was comprised of all Eagle scouts and they stayed inside the fort in the commisary building. They served as interperetors for a display of artifacts and tour guides for the only building open at the time, the north blockhouse. Scouts would serve on the island for six weeks. In the 1930's a large barracks was built for the scouts by WW1 veterans. This barracks still serves today but has been expanded to accomodate more scouts. Later on Girlscouts also expressed interest in the program. Currently every other week on the island is supposed to be for girlscouts to serve. Now troops or special contingents serve on the island for a week at a time. Scouts must pay about $130 for the privelage. The MISSC is run by the State Park. Scouts must provide their own cooks and food. The bunkhouse has showers, an infirmary, laundry facilities, a dining room and kitchen, and a large bunkhouse type sleeping area for youth, and a smaller room for adults. Scouts raise and lower all of the 26 state run flags on the island, and serve as guides at many historic locations within the fort and historic down town. Scouts may ride bicycles in their free time, but not in any class A uniform for some reason. They may not go to town without an adult supervisor and must be in uniform for that. The Grand Hotel allows scouts to use their swimming pool if you ask them, and will make some discounts for scout groups on their Grand Lunch Buffet, which is really great to go to, but you must ask early. Scouts often go in small groups with adults down town to go shopping and see the sights. They can explore all of the island but town with their buddy. Campfires can be held at nearby Greeny Grove for troop programs. My troop is form the Upper Peninsula so we feel the need to represent on the island, it's part of our half of the state you know. It takes a group of about 53 scouts minimum to do the flags well, and have enough scouts so that they only need to serve one guide duty shift per day. It is a lot of fun, but it is also the absolute most marshal and militaristic thing Scouts do. They must march everywhere on offical business, wear their full ocmplete Class A uniform while on guide duty and for flags, no exceptions. They can't go to town without an adult due to some past problems with large groups of unsupervised boys, but are free to explore the rest of the island and participate in games and sports, and advancement in their free time. We just had our first weekend long training campout this past weekend. We spend Friday evening and all of Saturday working on flag ceremonies, marching, and island knowhow to prepare the boys for their service. We hav another day long training scheduled for August second to refresh everybody and to train in one or two more boys who weren't signed up yet. We allways have trouble getting enough people but it looks like this year we won't have as much of a problem. If you do go to the island, please don't wear your class A uniforms on bicycles. Even though you might not be in our group the State Park Comission doesn't want us to wear our class A's on bikes for some reason and if they see anybody on a bike in a class A they tend to get peaved at us. Along with guide duty scouts clean up Marquette park on the island, deliver the mail from the state park office to the post office (There are only post office boxes on the island, no mail delivery), do a few service projects like shoveling gravel alongside the roads, pick up trash in the fort, act as guides within the fort assisting people and keeping them out of where they shouldn't, and have fun in their leisure activitys. If you want to go to Mackinac Island you need to apply to them. They will offer you a date which they would like you to serve, and you can refuse it but seniority dictates which date you will get. We usually draw near the end of the season and sometimes have conflicts with sports and the beginning of school because we've only done it sporadically for the past five years. You also need to have 50 boys in full class A uniform who can march and raise 26 flags at the exact same time. You will need a first-aider, a cook and assistant, adult leaders, a bugler, a senior patrol leader, and anybody else oyu think you might need. You provide all the transportation tothe island, the bicycles you need to provide, along wiht the food, and all of the leadership. CHeck out the Mackinac Island State Park webpage, I don't have the address, for more information. It's a lot of work but it is also the most honorable and marshal thing most scouts ever do. You actually serve as the Honor Guard for the Governor of Michigan on the island so it's important to be able to do it perfectly.

Thanks guys, now I know. Ah, the good ol days, before I was alive

Hey! How many of you scouts are planning on going to Mackinca Island this year. My troop is the only one from my half of the state that does it, and it's our island! We allways seem to have trouble getting enough people to comit, and we allways have more from outside our troop than from within. DOes anybody else have these problems? We can't take all of this time from our normal program without loosing something so we are going to ask another troop to take the reigns next year, if anybody will.

They're not really a release from liability from us, they're a notice to the parents. They are required I think because scouts are still minors and under the care of their parents, so we have to make darn sure the parents atleast know where their kid will be and for how long. It actually makes the scout more responsible for getting their parents to sign the slip, not less responsible for their own saftey. It's one of those technicalities that are just a good idea because not every parent is as observant or caring as they should be.

I'm a pro camping guy, I do it all. I really don't think any one type of camping is the end all-be all form of outdoor recreation. I enjoy backpacking, but I also enjoy sensible car camping. My troop once had nice reasonably small chuckboxes, until some adult said "Hey, you can't fit your dining fly, stove, and box legs in there! I'll fix that!" and added another half width addition to the back of the boxes making them weigh about as much as a volkswagon. Now none of the kids can even move them without three or four extra guys helping. Needless ot say we don't use them as much anymore. I think that we lost sight of what we camp for. When I'm camping within walking distance of the cars I like to use the gear that blends comfort and convienience the best. Rectangular sleeping bags, dutch ovens, two burner stoves, and full size tents are all fine. If a piece of equipment is more of a pain than a pleasure I'll leave it home next time. When I'm backpacking though I like lighter gear. I use a one man micro-tent and mummy bag, and try to be as light as possible without loosing a big degree of comfort. I generally enjoy fixed camps just as much as backpacking, if not a little more. Although canoeing has appeal to me to because you can carry a little more comfortable gear without any extra strain. Camping in it's self is fun, but when you aren't burdened by making deadlines and distances then, like in a camp-o-ree, you can practice skills other than those directly related to camp routine. I like other things like swimming, pioneering, and nature observation too and sometimes hiking can hinder that to some degree, although it can be made to work around that with a little planning. Overall car camping requires the least preperation and can be quite fun if you like doing other things, but if hiking and accomplishing a mile goal is what you hike for than that's fine too. Scouting is perfect for me because I do like all the forms of camping that we do. If I could only do one kind it would soon become boring and I wouldn't enjoy it as much.

Of course the main goal of all scouting is to benefit the youth, but being able to wear the badge to signify your own knowledge in a field has it's own advantages. If a scout sees anybody wearing a rifle shooting merit badge, a first aid merit badge, or any other badge they know they can ask that person a question about it and get a straight answer, that's some of the point of merit badges, to show others your experience, just like knots and service awards and leadership training patches. I bet nobody would probably object if an adult did have some badges on his uniform, unless there is a rule aganst it. After all, I don't remember seeing any age restrictions on any advancement other than Eagle. I could be dead wrong too. I think a little reckognition is deserved for anybody who wants to fulfil the requirements. In fact, I should ask somebody at national if adults are allowed to wear merit badges on their uniform. Any thoughts. I don't mean to steal the spotlight from any youth, but adults wear a lot of other symbols of accomplisment already, why not enclude merit badges?

Spats are supposed to keep junk, dirt, snow, woodticks, and even according to the pre WW2 US army doctrine, water out of the boots and pants, and to keep the footware dry from dews and damps. Spats are gaiters, just older looking ones. The army surplus store by me has some in my size I was looking at because I hate messing up the cuffs and calves of my scout uniform pants in muddy terrain. Hey, if you want to change your shoe color as a joke, get the cheapest pair of shoes that you can find and a few bottles of poster paint and repaint them every evening. They would be a flat color, but you could pick from many many diferent colors. Good Luck!

A merit badge doesn't prove anything but experience and proficency in a field, age not withstanding. I think honestly that having adults be able to earn merit badges along with youth wouldn't be a bad thing. I was kind of thinking about that. They should also offer the old discontinued badges as historical awards for completing the old requirements, only not count them ad badges towards ranks or anything. Giving adults the same reckognition as scouts for learning a useful skill would probably encourage more adults to keep active and encourage new ideas in the program too.

My dad told me many a story about the boondockers he wore as a kid. Leather shoes of this older style are actually probably better for hiking than a lot of the foreign made bagain priced hiking shoes out there today. Work boots can actually make pretty good hiking footware too. Those Brhama leather workboots are pretty light and offer a lot more support than a cordura and synthetic hiking boot ever could. My troop goes to Mackinac Island every year or two and we require dark brown or black dress shoes for uniform wear to go. I have a pair of Dockers all leather brown shoes, I need to check where they were made, but they didn't cost more than $25 and have lasted a while under less than everyday use. For real hiking I prefer a hunting type leather boot.

I did take a peek at e-bay. It looks like all that's listed now is a really old green wool scout shirt. I didn't know there was a current poly/wool blend available. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Really with proper underclothing the offical uniform can meet just about any summer camping requirement. On the somewhat rare occasions where extra warmth is needed long underware can be worn to increase it's warmth. I really wish scouts and scouters would wear the offical shirt and pants or shorts more than the activity uniform. There aren't too many things that can't be done in a button up shirt. I guess the cost is what keeps a lot of people from wearing their uniforms everywhere, but it's going to wear out anyways so you might as well get all the use you can form it. Ah well, thanks again. PS: Send some boys to Mackinac Island with Troop 466 this year!

They should add all of the discontinued badges to the scout historic equipment line.

I would like to see as an option the uniform long sleeved shirt and pants to be offered in wool. This would make them a lot safer in cool wet weather. They would essentially look the same as the cotton blend uniforms so they would work just as well at ceremonies, but would be better if cool wet weather were in the forecast. As for the campaign hat, it is far more useful than the baret and overseas cap. The beret looks pretty dorky if the sun bleaches it out to a pink too. The campaign hat is for sale from some websites minus the BSA hat band for about $30, and it can take a little rain without the cover. A few pieces of cardboard and a rubber band can also make a good hat board, so it is possible to reduce the costs somewhat. I am going to get one this summer, as well as mabey trying to locate some wool uniform look alike shirts and pants. I agree that an offical fleece shirt could be made too, and likewise a real mackinaw coat for even colder weather. Another good idea would be an insulated visor cap for the winter, like those old woolrich hunitng caps. The big thing is to keep what is currently offered still available too. Oh, by the way, a red windbreaker is also available if you really want to be in uniform in cooler weather. They should make it OK to privately purchase equipment that is of the same style and color and function as offical gear and allow the owner to add offical BSA logos to make this commercial gear "offical". The BSA windbreakers are like $30, and a commercial jacket exactly like it is only $15, and the patch is only a few more.

I think that the "Class A" should be pretty good for outdoor clothing in the summer atleast. I keep wondering if wool uniform shirts and pants are available for cool weather wear. It started out that the uniform was a khaki shirt that was readily available to scouts everywhere that would serve pretty well for outdoor clothing. I think the concept of a FULL DRESS UNIFORM is pretty much impossible with kids and that a scout uniform should be like the WW1 army uniform, 1/2 function, 1/2 dress, and definantly not try to look "cool" or anything as that just encourages needless changes which drive up costs.

You have a point but a single blade folder is at just as much of a disadvantage as a fixed blade, and it is not discouraged as often as the sheath knife is. Many of us prefer nostalgic equipment over more modern lightweight gear just because of the feeling of tradition we get when we use it. A canvas tent is no good any more for backpacking, but might make you remember your scouting roots if you camp under one on a Camp-O-Ree where you don't need to carry too far. The whole goal of scouting is not to only promote ultralight backpacking either. Many of us enjoy using the older style equipment just because, and there is really no saftey reason why we shouldn't be able to under the right circumstances. Certainly I wouldn't carry a steel mess kit or a rectangular sleeping bag if weight and functionality were my only concern. Also I just like sheath knives, Marble Arms Co. is right out side my door so I just about have to! But then again I must remember that there is a place for sheath knives, and there is a place not to have them. No flame intended here or anything but I don't think it's necisairy to ban something just because it isn't the very best tool for the job (Look at all the other junk boys bring with!) Good Luck! Good Night!(This message has been edited by willysjeep)

Well, my troop has a lot of webelos stolen from us so to speak by other troops so we invitet the 2nd year webelos to a seperate campout we hold at an adult leader's wooded property for Jamboree on the Air. We set up a special program for the webelos to introduce them to the troop and what we do. It seems to be working. You know, I just thought of something last night. CUbs spend five years learning skills, and in my council they only get to camp out two nights at cub resident camp. There should be more camouts for the cubs I think.

If I may quote the handbook for a moment. "Note: The Boy Scouts of America does not encourage the use of large sheath knives." from page 78 of the handbook. Notice the word 'large'. To me this would mean that smaller sheath knives, like the ones the BSA once marketed, would still be acceptable. I personally don't think any knife with a blade under five inches long, which is the legal limit for carry in most localaties, is really that large. I honestly feel that this rule was written to keep kids from bringing along 12 inch bowie knives, not sensible 3 or 4 inch utility type fixed blade knife. In fact, most cook kits contain a knife much larger than the average sheath knife, so if size alone makes the knife dangerous then those should be taken out too. Fillet knives are also not usually objected to, even though they are usually just as long if not longer than the old boyscout sheath knife. As for the objection that sheath knives are only hunting tools, how then do you justufy teaching archery or shooting sports? They have very little practical use beyond entertainment and hunting, where as the sheath knife is useful in many other tasks. Please, if you honestly think that sheath knives don't belong in scouting then tell the troop that it's what you think, not that National is behind it all and you are just going along with them.

I guess there are a few schools of thought about most aspects of scouting, including equipment. The metal 1qt canteen may seem to be mostly a nostalgic item, but it is still functional. I actually like the nostalgic gear campaign, but only because some of that stuff is built a little better. EX: my scout camper backpack is a few years old. It is in about the same shape as an old canvas Yucca ranger pack from the 50's. As for the campaign hat, they can only lok as good as they are maintained. They look so sharp when they are new, or not soaked. Besides, they are really just as practical as most "cowboy" hats, or any other broad rimmed felt hat. I just like the style. I guess I'm one of those "old timey" scouters. Don't get me wrong, but if given the choice I might choose a more nostalgic piece of gear over the newer hi-tech equipment (especially if they function about the same). Scouter Steriotypes: Offical Issue Obsessed: offical Issue only. "Civillian" gear is not good enough. Buys only from the scout store. Camping Catalog Technology: All gore-tex, nylon, plastic, titanium, aluminum, LED. As soon as something can replace what he has, he needs it. Looks for modern design over classic styling. Old Timer: Has used the same gear since he was a scout, and likes it. May use some modern gear, but probably still prefers the Jack shirt over the wind breaker. Appreciates classic styling. (just generalizations. Not aimed at anyone.)