willysjeep

I have a big problem that I need some help with. There is an adult leader in my district who I can not stand at all. Unfortunately, he and I seem to end up volunteering at the same events, camping near each other, sitting around talking to the same people, and I don't want to change what I do drastically just to avoid him. It all started when I was just a scout I guess. We were doing the honor guard thing on Mackinac Island and this adult showed up half way through the week. Things weren't like he had planned so he decided to try to force a change. It didn't exactly work. He and I began to clash over everything. To me, he comes off as being way too harsh, almost selfish, and sometimes a little too absorbed in himself. Now I bet if he had been with us all the time on Mackinac Island, had to deal with the first few days problems, gone through the training, then he may not have been such a wannabee drill sargent. The funny thing is this is the same guy who will try to MAKE everybody sing "do-a-diddy-diddy" while marching around the island. Oh, and don't forget that no matter who is doing what he doesn't hesitate to step in and take right over. I get a little miffed when somebody walks up next to MY patrol and begins to call a slower cadence over me just because HE think's it's HIS right to correct me (back when I was a youth that is). It seems like he HAS to be in charge and if you don't respect him for being so much better than you he makes life unenjoyable for you. Anyways, we never really got along. We both end up volunteering for the same events, and I am getting sick of putting up with his attitude and I am sure he is less than thrilled to be around me. I try not to incite conflict, but it is just SO hard sometimes not to crack a little joke when I see him screaming his lungs out at a group of 50 scouts and scouters to fall in to files and ranks, when we all just met an hour before. I think I said, to a buddy next to me "there's general so-n-so". My mistake that his wife was standing behind me, but I know I should have kept my mouth shut. It's just, you know when you shouldn't rag on somebody, but when they do it to you so often it's really hard to fight off the temptation. He says so much stuff behind my back I guess I'm not the bigger man for letting it all slide. It's a vicious cycle for sure. Mabey he is just a little bit of a jerk to everybody and I am getting way too bent out of shape about what allways goes on. Mabey he isn't even aware of how little respect I have for him because of how he acts. Mabey I should just shut up and avoid him when ever possible, it might make me feel like crap for giving up on what I believe in, but at least I could mabey enjoy events a little more. Mabey I just need to get this off my chest. Mabey talk with the other leaders in my troop, see how they feel, and mabey figure out what to do so we can both enjoy camping near each other. So, how do you all deal with the leaders you can't stand, but end up being around all the time anyways?

I got a stovetop model lodge dutch oven for x-mas many years ago. It is all iron, but not really perfect for campfire cooking.It has a lid which is sloped with only a small flat on top. The thing doesn't have legs either. Still, even with these handicaps it can turn out some good stuff. If you have an all iron oven (no plastic or wood handled cooking pots) you can still put coals on a domed lid either by turning it upside down or by putting a ring cut from a coffee can or other sheet metal on top to hold more coals on.

WOW! Was that ever a fun camp-o-ree. It was the 60th anniversary of Hiawathaland Council and the 65th of Scenic Trails. We decided to have a big joint operation at the straits. I was on staff. I got to take my old gear along too. I had my yucca, wool blankets, tarp tent, old mess kit and canteen and first aid kit. ANyways, more on the campout. The masses stayed at Straits State park on the mainland. The program staff spent the first night in the Scout barracks, and then went over for the second night with their home troops for a night of camping on the mainland. I had a ball, and I know about 1,800 other people from all over the UP and Lower Peninsula did too.

I am one of the staff buglers at my summer camp still. Actually, when it rains I guess it pours. There are three buglers on staff other than me. Unfortunately I get a little bent out of shape over some of the stuff that goes on there. A few years ago there was a trombone trio that did "to the colors" at a morning flag ceremony. Now to me, I see that as going beyond ceremony and getting pretty close to being a joke. So, to avoid ruffling too many feathers I am sort of the last-resort-emergency bugler now. I also caught holy heck for having "taps" played more than three times one night. Apparently two staff buglers played it at diferent times, and one troop bugler played it too. Next day I had a bugler roster set up to avoid any confusion. But during cubby week we really have fun, when it isn't too inappropriate. We did find out that assembly can be played in a round, and so can mess. Because most scouts and cubbers don't know the diference we did have to play assembly once in a while at lunch to get everybody together. But in general, it seems like no matter what anybody play, at any given time, boy or cub scouts, somebody allways ends up yelling "charge" at the end. I think the concept is lost on some people. Mabey I should do some sort of demonstration, or mabey just start using as many bugle calls as I can remember, and when somebody asks what that call was, I can tell them "why, that was swimming" or "that was call to quarters".......mabey re-start a tradition. Bugle calls would sure be a lot mor effective if everybody had some clue as to what they meant.

My other option is to replace the halizone vial with a much larger "portable aqua" iodine tablet vial of iodine tablets. I'm thinking that if giardia is not killed by halazone I might look for another similar size vial of one of the chemicals you mentioned. The tablets in the kit are for emergency use so I gather. Back when it was designed the scouts admitted that boiling was more dependable and should be used when possible. I for one wouldn't want to drink chemical flavored water for an entire camping trip if I could pack a filter along anyways. But I digress. I still think halazone might be worth trying. If not that, some other chlorine tablet if there is one available.

My troop has had it's share of regular scouts who lacked the physical and mental abilities to tough out a 20 mile long weekend hike. When my troop's venture patrol plans a long hike we have two shakedown weekend long hikes set up before the big one. The whole troop goes on these shorter hikes. It was on one of these that the above happened. A 90 pound 15 year old showed up with a 40 pound pack and a really bad attitude. When he refused to pack up on the second day we split up his gear and hauled it for him while he pouted. He did NOT go on the week long hike we had planned for Isle Royal later that summer. We required everybody to go on at least these two shakedowns, with some exceptions for those who could only make one because of a schedule conflict (mostly older kids with jobs). The system works, and it is simple and fair. If they can't cut a weekend hike chances are they won't even want to hike a whole week.

I just got an old scout tin box first aid kit. I'm trying to replace the contense with modern things so 1) I don't use up any 70 year old original collectables and 2) so I can count on the contense to work and not be dangerous (I.E. 70 year old water purification tablets). One thing I need to locate is a source for halazone water purifying tablets. The kit has a vial of really old ones. I want to find some with a similar dose and replace the outdated ones with new ones. Unfortunately all I can seem to find are iodine tablets, which would work but then I would have iodine in a bottle labled halazone. So, does anybody know where I can get actual halazone tablets to replentish my kit?

I was a bugler in my troop as a youth. I didn'have the merit badge though. Both then and now I can see Bugling as sort of a lost art. The main purpose of a bugler now is to play during flag ceremonies and to sound assembly. The problem is that most other scouts, and indeed most buglers, don't know any of the other calls that were used every day. Swimming, Officers(PLC), Church, Fire, Call to Quarters, Mess, there are all kinds of calls that would be still applicable in most camps. Music is more pleasant than a bull horn to me too. It would also be nice to be able to sound "officers" and get the PLC together, or to play "swimming" to remind everybody gently that open swimming started then, without screaming my head off. Come to think of it, the BSA used to use whistle calls too. I guess these were phased out long ago though. IIRC they were simply "assemble", "go out farther" A few others. Those, along with the old hand signals, if they were a part of any troop program, could b very useful. Whistles are easier to use than bugles, and could be given to each responsible patrol leader for functions where yelling is impractical but you still need an audible signal. Still better than a bull horn, or yelling like a maniac. Anybody else still use bugling or other non-voice signals in their troops or camps?

I don't think the mackinac Garrison flag is standard size. I believe it is longer than standard. I know we are instructed to fold it more than twice so we end up with somewhat smaller triangles. I know this makes the flag more firm and easier to carry. It's also important to note that this perticular flag is a historic representation of the flag from when it only had something like 36 stars, arranged in a grid just like ours, so the diference isn't readily noticeable. The flag ceremony I saw that envolved cutting had the scouts cut the flag into quarters, making the blue field one quarter. This is placed on the fire last so that "the grand constellation that represents our union is never seperated" or something to that effect. To me, burrying a flag is more disrespectful than burning it. In fact, on Mackinac Island each year we bring up some flags to retire. We send an honor guard to douse the fire and the next morning we sift the ashes to make sure no material is left from the flag. The ashes get scattered. Any remaining mateial is set afire again to turn it to ash. We also present the grommets on a neck chain to an honored person in the troop.

I found out more on my own. I just got a 1911 handbook reprint that advises scouts to buy their ponchos and some other equipment locally. It also shows a canvas five button "doughboy" coat and mentions a neckerchief as sort of an afterthought. I found out from this site http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0210/d-wwas.html that after the BSA officially adopted the neckerchief they got rid of the five button coat and replaced it with a four button canvas coat with a roll collar. This supposedly stayed in service until the post WWII uniform changes. Also, breeches were phased out for trousers at that point and the overseas cap was introduced. Originally the breeches and knickerboickers (baggier than breeches) were made to be worn with canvas leggings. Apparently they were less preferable to knee socks and sort of dissappeared until the shorter leggings came about after WWII. I have not yet found any reference to an official poncho made from anything but vinyl. I'm thinking sort of a canvas poncho/ground cloth, just a simple rectangle with a head slit, would look pretty period appropriate for anything before the 60's.

Flags can be cut, because then it "ceases to be a flag and is OK to dispose of in a fire" without disrespecting the flag it's self, only doing something with the material it was made from. Flags can also be retired whole and folded in triangles, or squares with the red and white out even. I went to Mackinac Island Scout Service Camp three times over the past years. The parks service has a flag of about the dimesnions you described. We only get to raise it on calm days because the foot thick fiberglass flag pole could snap in a stiff breeze. When we lower it it takes ten people on the rope to keep it from just blowing away. We catch the end and feed it back over the shoulders of a line of scouts. A flag this big is just impossible to fold without a whole troop helping out. It is also impossible to fold with the "correct" number of folds because it is so large. We march the flag back on our shoulders to the parade grounds in front of the scout barracks. We ring the flag with people and even have two or three really small guys go underneath to keep it from sagging on the ground as we fold it. There is simply no precident for flags this large. If we went totally "by the book" with only three people folding each one, only carrying it folded, and using the "correct" number of folds and pleats we would end up with a big mangled football shaped wad of cloth to carry around. You have to take a few libertys with such a large flag in order not to be "respectful" to a fault and damage the flag or put it in danger because we can't use enough people to practically manage it. Mabey, just mabey, you could bug the city you live in to spring for a big municipal flag pole and hoist that monster flag of yours on it at the end of the parade. Carry it folded and make a bigger ceremony out of raising it. I know I've seen flags this big on somewhat small poles. As long as the pole is sturdy enough and at least tall enough so the flag doesn't come close to the ground I'd say you could probably pull it off, if you wanted to.

Hi all. Somebody needs to get things moving aound here. Anybody out there from AG-IM 156 in Da U.P?

Yup, I'd vote yes too. Either that or rename one ........./equipment forum so we know where equipment posts belong.

The way I see it the scout uniform should be pretty constant. If somebody isn't willing to join scouts because they don't want to look like a scout, do we really need them? Mabey we could win them over if they were willing to give it a try, but really are we hurting that bad for members? I say a campaign hat should be our hat. Those baseball caps never looked that good. In fact, they look downright dorky and don't really help promote the classic scout image everybody associates with the BSA. Second, durable heavy denim like pants with a normal waist and pockets would be fine by me. Heck, I really wouldn't mind breeches as being an option still. Third, I wouldn't shed a tear if we went back to an epulet-less green shirt again. But really, the campaign hat is what everyody associates the scouts with, and I think it should be promoted more.

If you were looking for a DIY type project mabey a wood burning set would be suitable for marking the tag. Otherwise paints or permanent marker would make sense. High gloss acrylic varnish would make that shiny clear coat over wood. Cut the wooden tag to size, glue a tombstone shaped piece of leather on the back for a hanger with a slit cut for the button, mark it how you want (mabey make a stencil and mark it in pencil first) and go for it.

We just came across one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen in the troop's Uniform Exchange. Somebody donated an old old pair of thick, stretch knit, yellow and red horizontal striped swim trunks with a BSA official tag inside. When on earth did the BSA make these things? Honestly, if they weren't so form fitting I might be tempted to get a pair for the polar bear swim at summer camp. Might be a good joke, sort of an incentive or gag to get more people in the water or something. But none the less they are very interesting. I have never even seen reference to them on line anywhere. Anybody know anything about them?

Over the past few years supply division has introduced many old historic equipment items only to remove them a year or two later. Canvas yucca packs were available, as were canvas duffel bags and wooden cots, the canvas pup tent, historic red and black patrol badges, the belt loop kits, an official bugle, semaphore flags, and the 1911 scout handbook was also reproduced and is still available. I was wondering why I don't see any of these scouting items available in th 2004 catalog. did they drop the historic gear program? Does anybody know what the deal is?

Our summer camp used to have latrines consisting of a plastic or metal urinal with a pipe and valve to flush, two outhouse type toilet stands that shared a stall (couldn't design in a divider or something!?), a large galvanized pan sink with a pipe full of holes and foot activated valve, a garden hose, and a drinking fountain. Basically an outhouse with a flush urinal. The pits are made of cinder block but have no bottom, so it is too dry to be pumped out by conventional means. These structures are filling up to the seats, and the health dept. let us keep them grandfathere claused in until we could replace them. Our new latries are two individual flush toilets in seperate stalls over a cement septic tank, and a ceramic sink w/ cold water and a drinking fountain and hose on the outside. Much more popular, less likely to run into a porcupine gnawing on the pee soaked wood by the urinal during a midnight bathroom brake. Our shower house is "locker room style". No stalls. It's a concrete slab with a floor drain, a privacy wall (no roof) and a pipe running around the top of the wall with t's and shower heads every few feet. The shower is one temperature, we keep the water heaters set really low. You pull a chain on a valve to make the shower flow. The hottest one is nearest to the heater, the coldest at the far end of the pipe. We set it so that the first shower is moderately hot, but not dangerous. Attached to our open air shower area is a dressing building. We have youth and adult seperate shower times, and females can use the individual stalls on the far side of the lake at the old resort cabins the camp owns. We had one flush toilet in the camp office that was overused. We had to have the septic pumped very often. Now, with flushers in all the sites the burden has been dispersed. The old resort has one men's bathroom, one women's. Each has one shower stall and a toilet, sink, electric outlets...... Each individual cabin used to have an outhouse too, but those have recently been semi-retired. These cabins are where female staffers, families, and the really old gentelmen on staff stay. It's a half mile walk from the main camp area so the rustic effect isn't lost.

Mabey it seems a little wierd to hear, but antibacterial soap isn't necisairily the best for constant use. Neither are alcohol hand sanatizers. Basically, they do their job too well. Mothers who sterilize and sanitize everything for their children from birth are removing many inoffensive bacteria and fungi that serve to sort of innoculate children as they grow. When they don't have as good of a resistance to these normally pretty tame bacteria, coupled with the fact that no inoffensive bacteria (natural flora) are left on their skin to keep the harmful bacteria away wounds don't heal as well. Many experts recomend just plain old soap for everything. It removes dirt, does pretty darn well on dangerous bacteria, and doesn't strip off as many natural flora. Of course, antibacterial soap is great for first aid, but for constant use I use Ivory now. Besides, Ivory smells almost exactly like citronella oil for some reason. I am almost tempted to think that it might help repel mosquitos! Mabey making a wash stand could be a good way of getting that "useful camp gadget" requirement taken care of. At my summer camp we just distribute food to the patrols to cook themselves. We have a latrine with a sink and cold running water. If each patrol made a wash stand for their dingin area they could help one member get a requirement done instead of making a token hat rack or other arbitrarily useful item just to fulfill a requirement. Even leaving a bucket or water jug to warm up in the sun (solar shower!) might make hand washing a little more common. Of course cold water doesn't bother me. After wrestling a crisco greased watermellon from about a dozen other assistant scoutmasters in a contest representing my troop I took a garden hose shower with a bar of LAVA soap to get the crisco out of my trunks and hair.

FOG and I tend to share some common ground once in a while. I'm not the most active user here, but from what I have seen he seems to be on the square. Sort of a drill sargent type figure, he's on your side but he can be loud and excited some times. I feel it is his right to say what he wants for the most part. As an organization we take a pretty hostile view of other people's choices (gays, athiests) so why shouldn't FOG be able to argue about other people's choices within scouting? Yelling "fire" in a theater is not free speech, but yelling "I don't like how you think about religion" is. If you don't like what he has to say, you don't get trampled to death and you can argue with him all you want. mabey

It's my impression that as long as it is complete and matching you can still wear the older uniforms all you want. As for the colors originally the 1910 military copy was "khaki tan" and the later 20's and later uniforms were "khaki green" and now we have tan and olive. I'm still wondering where the heck they got the idea of epulates and shoulder loops from. I'm beginning to see myself collecting some of those old uniforms. Mabey If I get them in my size I can show them off while on summer camp staff.

for a while I folded my collar under. I made a square necker for myself and think it is not only more useful, but also better looking that those modern ones. If they sold a 36X36 necker in the catalog today without marking it up a few hundred percent and embroidering it I would be really happy. But they are easy enough to make out of a yard of cloth too. Besides, I don't ind using it for a washcloth if it only cost me a dollar or two.

I've got a few more old gear questions for you all. 1) before the red vinyl rain ponchos what was the "official" rain gear? I can't seem to really find pictures or info at all. 2) before the red wool jackets did the BSA have anything in the way of an official jacket? I know the really early scout uniforms consisted of like a canvas jacket type shirt. Did they offer anything other than the red woolrich back in the day? 3) When did the BSA get rid of canvas spats (leggings) in the uniform?

I've asked a lot of questions about older equipment in the past. I am sort of a user/collector. Someting fascinates me about using older methods and techniques. I know there are many things from scouting's past that should still be available today. There are some things that are far better than what is used today. I'm also sure there must be some terrible ideas that flopped too. So, your comments? Can you remember something you whshed they still made, how about something that wasn't so good?

First of all, you could change the name of an apple to a widget and people would still treat it like an apple. The name doesn't dictate the principle, it's just a formality so you have somehting to call it. If we didn't do this it would be too abstract to talk about. wheeler, what you essentially said is that because boys have no experience leading we shouldn't allow them to gain experience leading? Isn't that keeping them in the dark on purpose, like saying "you can't practice this because you haven't practiced enough". I see the scoutmaster as an advisor and example, not some kind of commander. The SPL is for the most part a man, at least from what I have seen. Nobody takes an 11 year old and makes them the SPL. Most SPL's are on the verge of being technically adults, and are the most mature people under 18 in the troop. Why is a manly "youth" member not as good of an example as a manly adult leader? When I get the urge to nanny scouts around I remember that when I was a scout we were allowed to learn by experience, not just by decry from the adults. I see your point in a lot of posts, and I agree that the attitudes in scouting have changed, but I really don't like all of the argument over something like this. You are allways citing the official literature to prove that there is something wrong. Official literature as I see it is not a good indicator of the program. People at national write the literature. Not every word in every scout book is followed to the letter. Heck, diferent manuals have had knots tied in diferent ways. One says the square not is fine for joining ropes, anothe says it's terrible. Which one is right? It all depends on who is interperiting the book. Just because our mission statement is vague or we have a policy on something doesn't mean it universally applies to every scout everywhere. The effect of scouting on boys is not dictated by the books, by the policies, by the rules, but by the people in their own troop who interperit the literature.