Bob White

Do you believe a parent can walk in an a meeting at the council office? That is an aspect of scouting is it not? Can you just walk into any meeting at the national office? That is an aspect of scouting is it not? This passage you quote is related specifically to YOUTH PROTECTION situations. Your unit committee meeting is no different than the exececutive board meeting at a private yacht club. If you wish to open your doors to everyone and anyone you can make that choice, but you are not required to. Since there are no youth present the youth protection rules do not apply. Now you might consider not repeating yourself lest you invite in the local community theater's rendition of "Annie Get Your Gun".

I can think of several reasons. One is its a private meeting of a private organization. I belong to lots of groups where it is not open to the public. Our chartering oprganization is a private yacht club, they have executive board meetings that even club members are not invited to attend and I guarantee that an interested party can't just walk in off the streets. In your business can just anyone walk into a management meeting? Can any employee even invite themselves into a management meeting. Families are the customers that the unit serves. Can you go into the management meeting of any store where you are a customer. Are you even told when those meetings are? You are taking the passage out of context. It is refering to youth protection in youth activities, and secret organizations... the committee is neither. Often times the committee discusses personnel, family involvement, youth behavioral problems and other matters that should not be discussed in front of scouts or other adults. Others can be invited when applicable or can request an invite, or units can choose to make them public. My point was that they are not required to be open by law or by the BSA.

You really do need to look at it in context. The passage you refer to comes under the Youth Protection section refering to barriers to child abuse. You don't need to worry about child abuse at a meeting with no children present. The passage refers to how the BSA has set up barriers at activities involving scouts. An adult meeting where there are no scouts does not present a potential abuse situations. The entire passage says. "No secret organizations. The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders." A unit committee is not a secret organization. It's work is known to the parents and the Charter organization has a memeber on the committe. there is nothing secret about its existence. It has leaders present, it probably has parents on the committee. It is not a youth activity. Meeting privately and being a secret organization are not the same thing. This passage is in response to questions about the OA and explains that it is not a secret organization and that it must be open to observation by parents, and to keep other scouts and scouters from starting a secret group within their troop. It does not refer to situations where child abuse is not a potential issue. If the Scoutmaster wants to have a meeting with the ASMs do you actually believe that they must inform and invite any parent or scout to attend??? That just isn't the case.

That is in context to activities in which the scouts are participating. Nothing requires that the committee meeting be open, or a meeting of the COR, and SM. Nor does a meeting of the SM and ASMs have to be open. You are prohibited from having secret or hidden activities involving youth as part of youth protection.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Call the council office before you determine whether someone is a registered counselor based on the published "council" list. The meirt badge counselor application form has the option for the counselor to NOT be listed with the entire council but only within the troop. While anyone can instruct the scout, only a registered counselor may test and pass the scout on the requirements. For more information check out this link. http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors.aspx

[Refer to earlier post] (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

As a Scoutmaster I would bring the SPL to a committee meeting early in their term to see what the committe does in support the decisions made at the PLC meeting. After that they came only if requested or needed. You are correct that the Scoutmaster's role at the committee meeting is as the program representative, but not as a committee member. The ASMs take their assignments from the scoutmaster so there is no requirement that they be present. However this is up to the Scoutmaster and committee chair to work out for what works best for them. The committee mmeeting is not required to be open to the public or even to parents or scouts. It is a private meeting of a private organization. While you are able to allow others to come at will you are not required to be by law or by the BSA.

Ed I think perhaps we agree and you are simply arguing out of habit. How a scout performs his duty to God and how he shows his reverence are certainly available topics of discussion and should be a part of EVERY rank's bor not just Eagle. Do not confuse that with a discussion on a specific religion. Religion is not a requirement of the BSA. The question that promted my response was comparing specific religions as they related to a bor and there is NO REQUIREMENT that a scout belong to ANY religion. So what religion a scout is (or isn't) a member of, is not relevent to the bor. How the scout percieves and acts upon his obligations to God is the topic, not what label his religion has. A scout can have a reverence to God without being a member of any specific religion. A scout can put that reverence into action without belonging to any specific religion. Whether a Scout is Catholic, Jewish, Presbyterian, or Scientoligist, or none of the above is irrelevant to the advancement requirements of the BSA. The question the bor should ask is "how do you feel you show reverence to God?", and not, "what religion do you belong to?". (This message has been edited by Bob White)

My sincere apologies Gern I confused a post from dan with you. My error. BW

Crew21Adv Yes, every Council and District advancement chair should be trained in their responsibilities and knowledgable about BSA advancement....but they're not. Every adult volunteer should be trained...but they're not either. In the council I serve the council advancement committee is made of some very experienced veteran scouters with loads of training...whose learning stopped 15 years ago or longer. Their knowledge and understanding of the current advancement procedures and regulations are sadly lacking. I am sure this is not the case in many councils, I am also sure that it is probably the same in many councils. Whether you look at it as being denied advancement or not recommended for advancement depents on which side of the table you are sitting on. The fact is there is a right way and a wrong way to not recommend a scout and it seems many advancement committee personnel are oblivious to the right way, but very experienced in the wrong way. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yes you can go to the BSA's on-line learning center and take the fact start training for Boy Scouting as well as the troop committee Challenge training for committee members. https://scoutnet.scouting.org/elearning

Gern. I did not say that you questioned the LDS as a CO. Please read my post again. Gunny Setting requirements for a POR has no relationship to changing requirements for rank advancement. the BSA program specifically allows units to set their own POR requirements. Some units for example set age and/or rank requirements for POR, some have training or attendance requirements for POR. This is not adding to or subtracting from any rank requirement. Packsaddle, I have already explained how it is not a requirement. Rather than ask me to explain again, why not ask ed to explian how he believes it is required. As I recall ed has been a scoutmaster, scout leader trainer, and a commissioner for many years. I would think he would be well suited to explain his knowledge on the subject. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Gern There is nothing in the policies of the BSA that keeps a unit from setting their own rerquirements for a POR. Setting requirements for a POR is not the same as adding or deleting requirements for a rank. Dan asks, "Bob, are you aware of any belief held by Wiccans that would prohibit them from having a Scout unit?" No I am not, but then am I am not the one saying that they are not qualified to be a CO as Gern and you are implying about the church or scientology, and buffalojoe has suggested about the Church of Latter Day Saints. The fact is the church of scientology and the LDS church have submitted themselves to the BSA to be chartering organizations and were approved by the BSA. That alone makes them eligible. I suggest that if you know of actual elemnets of scientology or LDS that is counter to the aims and methods of scouting that you inform the BSA Relationship Committee for them to investigate.

Not at all, I am simply pointing out that at this point in time the BSA has not stated that the award is approved for wear on the BSA uniform.

Are you aware of any requirements that the LDS church has added in conflict with the BSA or are you just imagining that such a condition exists?

Vicki, the question was in relation to board of reviews and religion. and the fact is that religion is not an element of a board of review. So to answer the question "how does LDS figure into this?", they don't. Neither do the other religions. The requirement does not ask about religion. and being active in a formal religion is not needed in order to fulfill the requirement.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have nothing against the Unitarian church, and I have no problem with the BSA approving any award they wish to. But it seems unusual that after two years there is no mention of the approval in any current BSA text or resource, and although the UUSO may say it is approved, it really needs to be the BSA that says they are approved. I would agree that there is probably some higher level obstacle. Even once the Relationships Committee approves the award it still needs to go through the the BSA executive board does it not? I also wouldn't be surprised to find that after the problems with the UUA that there isn't a lawyer or two giving some input on the matter.

The same as any Christian faith. Remember the requirement isn't to belong to a religion it is to be reverent to God and perform your duty to God. The BSA does not define God.

I agree that the rift began in 1998 but as you point out it has been a confusing timeline of an on-again/off-again relationship. Which I believe is at this this point in time is still off-again. While you are right that the UUSO recently released a new award, neither this one or the previous ones have yet to be approved by the BSA. In fact the UUSO's own website states that these awards have yet to even be submitted for consideration. I should point out that that information was last updated TODAY. So if has yet to be submitted than I have to wonder what was approved at the Relationships Committee meeting that Trevorum said he was at?

Buffalojoe, I pray you have a better understanding of Catholicism than you do if scouting. Scouting is not boy run, Troop and patrol activities a boy lead. There is a difference. I know of nothing in the BSa priogram that gives youth the responsibility, or the authority to select the adult leadership. That is the responsibility of the Committee chairpaers and either the charter organization head or the charter organization representative. An LDS unit that selects its leaders through thoughtful pryer is doing a better job than the troop that stands beofre a crown of parents and says "we need 'somebody' to gbe the Scoutmaster." If you get every parent to register every 11 year old in your parish in the church's troop then good for you...no GREAT for you, and great for scouts. In some countries scouting is a part of the school system and every age eligible youth gets two years of compulary scouting. Are you inflating the numbers? Not if you have a parent signed application and they meet the program eligibilities. You will not be stripped of your Eagle award for recruiting several scouts, and I have no idea how one is stripped of their ticket? As a seminarian trying to force the BSA to recognize paganism seems to me a far more self-destructive past time than trying to recruit every 11 year old boy in to scouting. So what if the LDS Church chooses not to do Venturing or Sea Scouting. (and you should already know that the Varsity program is almost entirely an LDS program), lot's of COs choose to only sponsor one type of unit. No unit is required to support the OA program. You really are way off base on this. Dan While the church of scientology might be a chartering institution you will note that they do not have a BSA recognized religious award either. But I am unaware or any belief held by the scientologists that would prohibit them from having a Scout unit, can you. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed Palmer is correct. The references sited are all old ones prior to the rift between UUA and the BSA. There are is no current documentation from the any UU group or more importantly from PRAY or BSA stating that there is a BSA recognized religious award from the Unitarians. No one is suggesting that any award be torn from anyone's uniform. I would hope that everyone involved would want a scout or scouter to have the personal integrity to chosse to wear only approved recognitions on their uniform. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Still there does not seem to be any evidence that that the BSA has recognized the UUSO's award. I have resurrected the discussion on this in the "Working with Kids" section. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

However even the UUSO's current website does not say that the award is recognized by the BSA only that the have created this award for scouts to earn. So far there is nothing on the PRAY website, the BSA website, or the UUSO's website stating that this award has been recognized by the BSA. Would would think that after two years there would be some acknowledgement by at someone that the recognition was approved. After two years do you have anything in print from any official source that this award is recognized bt the BSA?

I am revisiting this thread because of comments made in another thread referencing the UUA or UUSC having a religious award that is recognized by the BSA. I can find where some posters say it exists, but what I cannot find is where PRAY or the BSA says it exists. Neither the UUA or the UUSC says one exists. The closest I can find is on the UUSC site where they say their goal is to have it recognized by the BSA. Can anyone provide any evidence from the BSA that says it recognizes this award? According to the BSA's current list it does not. http://old.scouting.org/awards/religious/awards/index.html(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Again, good luck with that. The right of a private organization to discriminate has already been tested and supported by the legal system all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Remember that the BSA is not saying that there cannot be a wiccan religious award, only that it must meet the BSA's regulations to be worn on the BSA uniform. Included in those requirements is that the religion must charter at least 25 scout units. To date there are no scout units chartered by a wiccan or pagan organization. A Scouts Duty to God can be a confusing thing for some boys at this age who come from families that did not provide them with a strong religious foundation. In these cases they often look for others around them to help them understand their duty to God by their example and their personal beliefs. Would having adult leaders who could set a positive example, and who had an understanding of their faith, not be a greater benefit in helping the scout form his beliefs than to see someone who professes a belief Catholisism and supports paganism? I am not sure that showing a scout you would set aside your reigious beliefs because someone helped you with your homework is reflective of our catholic faith. As you know catholic history is filled with people who were willing to give up there lives rather than give up the ministry of their faith. 10% of scouts have their first exposure to organized religion through the scouting program. It is unfortunate that so many seem to be surprised when the subject of "duty to God" comes up in a board of review. It is the responsibility of the leaders that the unit program helps the scout appreciates and according to this duty. It would seem that since the unit is chartered by a christian church and you are being trained in a christian education that your reflection of the Duty to God through your beliefs would be a health thing for the scouts to see, and could be done without proselytizing. Perhaps if scouts saw less religious ambiguity in the adults around them they would have an easier time understanding this element of the Oath and Law. Something to consider. Dan I am unable to find any evidence that the BSA approves any UU religious award for display on the BSA uniform. According to PRAY's website it is not. It has been accepted by the GSUSA but not the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)