Bob White

My oversight packsaddle you are absoluetley correct, and since there are youth members that sit on the various national committees I should have phrased my question differently. Please allow me to do so. Packsaddle, How many different youth members and adult volunteer members, would you guess you personally meet in a given year?

"I can't nail down either what ball cap you wear" Out of curiosity...where have you looked?

"or at least no members that I know" How many different BSA volunteers would you guess you personally meet in a given year packsaddle?

Packsaddle, Where did I speak of "disorder". I wrote only of addressing problems in an orderly manner through the scouting channels rather than public protest. I don't foresee the BSA taking any action against someone who complains about the uniform or bemoans Morse code being removed from the handbook. As a program there are far more important things to consider. But if you were to protest regarding the BSA's membership policies, or speak as a BSA member to the media in away that could damage membership or fund raising, then I expect you will affect your membership in ways you will not like. If you attack the values of the program in a public way as a member, I would expect the BSA will remove that conflict from you, by revoking your membership. Rather than thinking of the BSA as a company with a flawed product. Think of it as a company with many fine employees manufacturing and delivering a great product. With the exception of a few employees who are responsible for delivery, not R&D, not manufacturing, spending their time criticizing the product rather than getting to their task of delivering the product.

I don't see it as feeling to weak to withstand scrutiny, I see it as too busy doing an important task to have to tolerate a few whiney members who do not even like the program they chose to join. It requires less time, effort, and resources to just show them they way out and continue to serve the youth. Does a gnat have a greater right to stay in your tent and annoy you than you have to shoo him out to join the other gnats?

Not all Packsaddle, I am not saying if you disagree on anything to quit. I am saying if you do not accept the policies or core values don't join, and if you join and discover that your values disagree with the organization, quit. Why should you expect an organization to change its values for you? Compromise is fine, but not when you talk about values. Would you sell your newborn baby for for $10? No? Of course not he's priceless right? So let's compromise...how about $50? $100? Oh come now you believe in compromising right? Do not think ill of the BSA because there are some things it will not compromise on. Do not think so highly of yourself that just because you disagree with the BSA that they should have to change.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

And if that fails, direct your DE to the BSA's national website at http://www.scouting.org/commissioner/home.html and show him this statement from the BSA at the bottom of the page. "Commissioners must not be registered simultaneously as unit leaders".

NJ Reviewing your post, and mine, it appears I answered each of the questions you posed. Did I miss one? Or is the problem the same one you have with the BSA? That is to say.... you just don't like the answer. If what I believed was so contrary to organization's values, that saying it in public would get me removed from membership in that organization...one would have to ask, what real value does the membership brings to me, and vice versa. The only answer is in your conscience, and in your willingness to claim publicly, membership in a group that privately you do not hold with. I could not force that kind of hypocrisy on myself, but that is my personal choice, just as it is yours.

"If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them." Exactly the BSA's point I believe. They expect you to behave "in an orderly manner" as you promised! That does not mean to publicly air your protests or whine to the masses. They expect you to organize your thoughts and present them throught the avenues available to you in the BSA "in an orderly manner". While we are using the Law to support outr positions let's look at the fact that voluntarily joining a program and then protesting and complaining in public about values and policies that yopu said you would support is not being Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly or Courteous, to the people and program you asked to to join. The BSA's position is not a threat. It is their right to determine the membership of their private organization.

I don't that any council could get away with "requiring" unit support. They can encourage, motivate, reward, urge, beg..but not require. nor cam they withhold services from a unit that chose not to. Are there some out there that behave like that...expecting services and resources but not contributing to their cost? There sure are. Solution? Units need to select their leaders more carefully. BW

When you read the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual you will find that the District/Council Advancement Committee is resonsible for contacting all MB counselors each year and re-registering them. The specifc procedure is outlined in the manual. They are not required to re-submit their applications, but only to verify their topics and agree to continue to serve in writing. Again see the manual for specific procedures.

It is really not that different in our case. The junior leaders are trained that the group should be courteous to others, and part of that is keeping the noise down as of lights out. But cabin camping has some built in controls that tent camping does not have. We cabin camp only during the worst of the winter months. There are seldom any other campers nearby that might be disturbed by any human sounds at night. Cabins offer a degree of noise buffering that tents don't, so sounds from late night conversations do not travel as far. Bodys expend more energy in cold weather, and the scouts are usually far more tired by the day's end on winter camps then during warmer times. So the scouts tend to fall asleep much sooner when we cabin camp. Settling down is rarely a problem. Others may have different experiences, but that is ours.

Hardly a fair comparison given the many differences in the laws and procedures governing school and Scouting.

Yes, there was a long time volunteer removed in this council for publicly speaking out as a Council member who disagreed with the membership rules. I stand by the accuracy of my post. I welcome you to share it in its entirity with your Scout executive and see if it is not correct.

Have you considered turning the activity planning over to a small group of Venturing-aged youth to come up with activities that interst them?

I thought the topic was the POR of Webmaster? 4880

Boleta, They were trained to make good decisions. If a situation arose where putting more than two in the tent was appropriate, I am confident that they would make the correct decision. Hops, As a matter of health and safety it is unwise to have a scout tent alone. It raises the opportunity for one-on-one adult youth contact, or if the scout should become ill or injured it could seriously reduce the response time for someone to come to his aid. Just something to consider.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I was unaware that having a sense of humor and not appreciating something that "may be perceived as distasteful" were mutually exclusive. Laurie, I sent you a private message regarding your questions. I appreciate the adult and courteous way you handled things. Bob

I'm sorry did someone say dictate? I thought the the recommended action was "train" and "coach". Oh well, different strokes for different folks.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"What I would like to know, Bob, is where the other "rules" that you cite are published." Most, if not all of the the policies I refer to on this forum are found in a few easy to access references. You have seen me refer to them by name and page on many occasions. they include the Insignia Guide 2004-2005, the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual, the Unit Money Earning application, The Guide to Safe Scouting, the Youth and Adult Membership Applications. The position I referred to in this thread is found in a position paper that was posted on the national website www.bsa.org The BSA National Office and the National Council publish position papers and other references at that website. Also like many other scouters, because of my volunteer responsibilities I have had access to information and scouting news at various national activities. "Specifically, where does it say that if you disagree, it must be in a "constructive manner" and "through the channels that exist in the BSA where your concerns can be addressed?" And where is the term "constructive manner" defined?" I don't know that it is. As you will note the information was not in quotes and did not contain a specific reference, but was in my own words. I tried to convey the situation as clearly as I could so that all could comprehend it. I am sorry if I was not clear enough for you. "And what if going through channels produces no change, as it has (not) on the issue of gays?" Whoever guaranteed that just because you voiced an opinion that a change would take place? You don't truly expect the BSA to change direction every time someone disagrees? I have found the BSA committees and and personnel both professional and volunteer always listen and usually consider, but that does not guarantee they will change anything. This is a huge organization and it cannot, and will not, turn on a dime. "Am I, for example, allowed to write a letter to the editor, criticizing a policy of the BSA and calling for it to be changed?" As a non-member sure, say what you want. As a member? I wouldn't suggest it. The local paper is certainly not a scouting channel. I can see how that kind of behavior is not productive as no one reading that letter has the authority to change anything in scouting. Why would you right the editor? Easy. To put social pressure on the BSA. Social extortion as it were. But when all is said and done your shortsightedness failed to see that all you did was damage the local program support in your community. That is certainly not productive. Again, I wouldn't recommend such an action if you are interested in retaining your membership. I am really amused by your thought that if you ask for something the BSA must say yes to you. You are welcome to disagree and you have several levels of the BSA to convey your ideas and opinions to. Often these ideas lead to effective improvements as the program grows. But sometimes the answer is no. "Am I allowed to post to an Internet web set criticizing a policy and calling for it to be changed? What if I use my real name in the post? What if I don't? Does it matter? Can I have my membership revoked for what I have posted in this forum over the past 2.5 years?" Do you feel that what you have written is damaging to the program? Has it damaged the program? "Should my membership be revoked, Bob?" What leads you to believe I have that authority? What I would do, or want, has no relevance. Nor do I have any authority over you. LAURA You can address you concerns to your local District committee, Council Committee, Scout Executive, National Council, National Office, just to name a few. But whether these are volunteers of professionals, don't go in as so many posters do here with a whine and gripe but no facts or basic training. Organize your thoughts, do some research. Anybody can see a problem, have a plan for a solution. And unlike NJ, understand that things do not happen at the drop of a hat, and that sometimes the answer is no. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

As the Scout Roundtable Commissioner you work for the District Commissioner and yo are responsible for the success of delivering the mission of Roundtable to the Boy Scout Leaders in the District. While it is a good idea to use the resources around you for skill demonstrations there are other jobs that need to happen on an ongoing basis to make the Rundtable a success. You will find that the most successful RT programs have a regular staff that assist with such things as: Program planning Physical Arrangements Check-in and attendance Hospitality Recognitions Promotion Resources Ceremonies and some for specific and ongoing program features such as; Cook's corner Scoutmaster minutes Game master Boys' Life Merit Badge Midway The idea is to put on a Show & Do "for" Scout leaders, not necessarily "by" Scout leaders.

Train them, Trust them, Let them lead. Boys do not run scouting, Boys Lead troops and patrols with adult training and coaching. This does not mean adult abandonment. Where did someone say they control which tent a scout brings? I only see posts where the number of scouts in the tent is limited. They can bring one of Eagle90's 23-man tents they are still only going to put two people in it, and it is the trained patrol leaders and Senior Patrol Leader who will make sure of that. Bob White

Remember the Titans has some great team dynamic lessons in it. Star Trek Next Generation is a very good platform for teaching meeting planning and sharing leadership, and situational management styles.

The merit badge application alone is insufficient because as explained previously, National requires merit badge counselors to complete BSA membership applications for the purpose of Youth Protection. There is no charter or other paperwork to show dual registartion for merit badge counselors who are also volunteers in other areas of scouting. They must complete an application for the position of MB Counselor as well. Why would anyone refuse to do this? Why would you want someone who refused to do this to have direct contact with youth?

I am amazed that there are those who would pull another posters name into a conversation when he or she has not even posted in the thread and make such malicious comments. Now I see many of you have become clairvoyant and now believe you know what I will say before I even say it. Not only that but then reubut what it is you think I will say and criticize me for my imagined response. What a useful gift. And you are supposed to be the leaders? Whether or not to wear a Webmaster patch is not your biggest concern.