Bob White

Frank,

I am not sure what was shared with you in training, but to set the record straight, only the Scoutmaster approves who can sign for advancement and which they can sign for. Simply being an ASM does not give one the authority to sign for advancement.

As mentioned before but worth repeating. A person is officially an ASM when their application is approved and processed.

There is no officially designation of ASM in-Training

To be considered a Trained Leader one has to meet the "trained" requirements set by the BSA for that position.

Yeah Hillbilly I am beginning to understand where the problem is here. For one thing. I am able to discuss the contents of the LNT without calling people names.

I am confident most people see how you are going out of your way to to warp what the LNT practices refer to. For instance you asked me if I can go into the wood without altering an animials normal activities. Well when you look at what the LNT means by that, sure I can.

I have spent hundreds of days and nights in the outdoors without intentionally approaching wildlife in a way that was meant to frighten them, injure them, disturb their nesting, disturb there young, damage their food sources. It's called outdoor skills, and the Scouting program has taught these skills for years.

Sure I have unknowingly walked up on an animal that was hiding itself in the brush but it was unintentional and not done to upset the animal. And that is all the LNT is saying. Don't intentionally irritate the animals. It's truly hard to believe that you do not actually realize the difference. Your persistence in ignoring the simplicity of these practices puts yourself in a very unflattering light.

Have you ever seen a bear in the wild? I have. I stood and enjoyed her and her cubs at a distance. I did not attempt to see how close I could get. At the distance I was at both the bear and I felt safe I knew where she was, and I am sure she knew where I was. I did not cause her to change her activity with her cubs, leave her area or change her state from calm to defensive or aggressive.

On the other hand I watched a man with a throw-away camera try to see how close he could get to a Bison to take a picture. Here is a tip you won't get from LNT...NEVER approach an animal while looking through the wide angle lens of a cheap camera. I am sure that Bison looked a hundred feet away when he charged and hit that guy, and not the 20 feet away that he actually was.

That's what the LNT is talking about when it says not to try and approach an animal.

You do yourself a great diservice by making comments about a topic you obviously do not yet understand. That goes for LNT training as well as Wood Badge Training.

Goober? Ignorant? It seems your ability to discuss a topic is predicated on the hope of insulting others into submission rather than for you to be bothered with addressing the points of the discussion. An unfortunate characteristic, but I guess you must play with the hand that is dealt you.

If you have any actual questions on LNT I am sure there are numerous scouters on the forum who like myself would be happy to help you learn more about it, without the need for your insults.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

SctDad

What is the annual program budget for the Pack for 2008?

Can they meet the budget if everyone sells a half page of popcorn?

Assuming that if everyone sold a half page you would not meet your budget needs, what incentive is there for a scout to sell a whole page if those who only sell a half will recieve the same program benefits?

BW

Luckily for me your are incorrect. You also seem to be the one baiting.

You put far too much stock in the name given the program (not a name the BSA gave it mind you) than you give to its elements and their application. I do not know if you have taken the actual LNT course, or if you understood it the first time around. You might give consideration to taking the actual course or taking it again.

As an example. For principle #6 Respect Wildlife, here are the core elements...

*Observe wildlife from a distance. Do not follow or approach them.

*Never feed animals. Feeding wildlife damages their health, alters natural behaviors, and exposes them to predators and other dangers.

*Protect wildlife and your food by storing rations and trash securely.

Control pets at all times, or leave them at home.

*Avoid wildlife during sensitive times: mating, nesting, raising young, or winter.

For even more detail read the text at this link http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_6.php

Tell us if there is anything there that you could not manage to do. I, and lots of others, seem to have no difficulty practicing it, why do you?

The goal of bowling is to roll a perfect game. Does every bowler accomplish that goal? Of course not, but that does not mean that they cannot improve their skills, enjoy the activity, and be considerate of others as they do it. And amazingly for many, the more they practice the better they get.

LNT is no different from that. Striving for the goal makes us better and more responsible outdoorsman whether we achieve the ultimate goal or not.

Stop fretting on the title and consider learning the actual skills of its program.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is a big difference between a scout not having obtained their complete uniform yet, and a leader telling scouts and parents that the uniform does not require the uniform pants.

The unit has no authority to alter the uniform. The uniform is what the BSA ays their uniform is and BSA leaders have a responsibility to represent that honestly and correctly. To tell parents that they can wear camo or jeans with the uniform is poor leadership.

The BSA has made it clear have they not that camoflage and military wear is inappropriate for wear at scout functions or with the scout uniform.

With all the non-camo apparel available, and knowing that the BSA does not want it worn, why would someone need to wear it? and WHY would trained scout leaders choose to support it?

The BSA asks that you not wear t-shirts with messages or advertising that is inappropriate for the program. There are tons of t-shirts available to you that would be inappropriate to wear foor Scoiut activities...do you wear them? Why not? Because you choose to wear something more appropriate.

Why would anyone be unable to make that same choice when it comes to camo? Just because it exists you do not have to wear it.

Have their current SM sign the blue card. The purpose is for the Scoutmaster to know what the scouts are working on and to insure they are working with a registered counselor.

As the approved and registered counselor you are the sole authority on what requirements have been completed correctly.

1. There are authorative documents on such things as the length of knife blades, just not in the BSA. When carried in certain settings there are often local laws that would place certain size or types of blades as illigal. But no such documentation exists in the BSA.

Troops are free to set their own rules but they can be suoperceded by the rules of an activity or property owners. for instance the troop may allow fixed blade knives under 3.5" but the owners of a campground can prohibit fixed blade knives.

2. I do not know what you mean by a non-documentary method or how one inserts an undocumented policy?

3. Wood Badge teaches leadership skills, not outdoor skills and not poliices.

4. Leave no Trace is method of outdoorsmanship. It is the policy of the BSA to support good outdoor skills and courtesies in order to preserve the quality of the outdoor experience for others. Crossing a meadow in a widespread line abreast is an element of LNT, it is a wise and courteous outdoor practice. It is not a POLICY of the BSA. The policy is that BSA supports that leaders know and practice LNT methods as a matter of good outdoorsmanship in the backcountry.

5. The requirements for receiving the Totin' Chip card is written on the card. When you read the card you will also see that it says " The Scout's "Totin' Rights" can be taken from him if he fails in his responsibilityis." Who takes it, how it is taken, when it is taken, how it is re-earned is up to the individual troop. Nowhere does the BSA say to give a scout 4 chances to misuse a dangerous tool before he loses the right to use it and must retest on the requirements.

I agree that you will sometimes see adult leaders who should know better do thing incorrectly. Why for instance it seems that adults in the OA are incapable of starting a fire without the improper and prohibited use of chemical fuels is a mystery to me. We teach 10 years olds how to start fires using tinder and kindling, but adults at The many OA conclaves I have attended have yet to figure it out.

We watched a leader in another troop doing a woods tool demonstration at a camporee embed an ax into his knee cap moments after our SPL warned him that he had the incorrect knee on the ground and was in danger of hurting himself.

As for the trainers at your course...I believe I have mentioned in the past that most important element in the success of any Scout program is the selection of the adult leaders. IOLS is no exception.

As for your dislike for the Leave No Trace Program. You really do not understand it. First it's not a BSA program. It is a program that the BSA uses to teach backcountry ettiquette as well as basic planning skills for backcountry activities. www.lnt.org

It is not impossible to follow, it is not even difficult to follow.

Here is Leave no Trace..

1) Plan and prepare for the trip

2) Travel and camp on durable surfaces

3) Dispose of waste properly

4) Leave what you find

5) Minimize campfire impact

6) Respect wildlife

7) Be considerate of other visitors.

Which of thse practices do find impossible to be mindful of GaHillbilly? Are you unable to plan your outing? Do you find you cannot keep your vehicle on the road? Are you inconvenienced by packing out your garbage? Are you compelled to gather wildflowers and take them home? Do require a bonfire to cook your stew? Is your camping experience not complete until you have teased a squirrel? Do you not feel a responsibility to leave the area you have enjoyed as nice for others as it was for you?

What exactly do you find impossible to do within the principles and practices of Leave no Trace?

And how does your misunderstanding of LNT differ from the trainers misunderstanding of the Totin' Chip that you saw at your training course?

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eagle92

The BSA has had problems in the past, and tries to stem problems in the future with leaders who allow the program to appear paramilitary in its methods and goals.

For that reason the BSA asks that you not wear military-like apparel and gear.

You have official scouting uniforms, there is no need to wear camoflage. You have ample varieties of camping gear and a myriad of price ranges so there is no NEED to wear military gear.

Knowing that this is the case why would anyone choose to voluntarily join a program because they like what it stands for and then purposely violate its image by ignoring their specific rules and give the appearance that it stands for something different?

Supporting improper uniforming is poor leadership, but it is easily fixable simply by making different personal choices.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Amethyst

I apologize if my last post appeared to be directed at you. It was not, it was in response to Eagle92's comments.

I applaud you for wanting to do what is right. A good friend of mine recently became a Cub Leader on the East Coast. He called me because at the first pack meeting the cubmaster told the families that the uniform was the Cub Shirt and blues lkeans. He wanted to know if that was correct. he was relieved to know that it was not. His concern was that the BSA had lost track of the value the uniform. His scout now wears teh complete uniform and others in his den have begun to do so as well. Several other adults in the pack have commented on how sharp his son looks.

The uniform goes from head to socks in Cub Scouts, for the unit to support anything else is incorrect. Again I applaud you for your dedication to do the right thing and follow the BSA program..

I think teaching young people to respect the rules of their community IS an important part of good scouting and of being a responsible mentor.

Why join an organization if you are unwilling to act according to their rules? It is disappointing to see adults who are setting example for the youth to pick and choose what rules they will abide by and what they will ignore.

There is no reason why all the rules cannot be followed. They aren't that tough.

What SMT224 recommends may seem like fine steps to take but let's remember that the BSA has policies in force that cover this situation.

Bullying is unacceptable in the BSA and the Youth Protection policies require that you notify the Council Scout Executive(SE)when a scout physically harms another scout.

What does the harmed scout want the outcome of your intervention to be? You need to know that. When you contact the SE you want to be able to tell them as many details as possible including what steps the unit is taking.

You also have a responsibility to inform the injured scout's parent or guardian as well as the the Charter Representative and Committee chair of the incident as their could be legal ramifications that result and you do not want them to be surprised.

It is the Unit Committee's responsibility to meet with the accused scout and his scout's parents to decide what the next appropriate step is up to and incluing his permananent removal from the unit. The council executive may determine that the scout need to be permanently removed from the ascouting program.

At no time does the BSA give the responsibility for dealing with a bully in the hands of a senior scout. The BSA adult leader training and all the youth protection training makes it clear that it is the adult leaders responsibility in every case.

Do not let time pass before you deal with this incident. If you wait you send very bad messages to all involved. It will seem that you condone this kind of behavior or that the ramifications for bullying are not serious.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"any kind of touching of any Scout is completely off limits at any Scout function."

I would hope no unit ever had the need to create such a drastic rule. It certainly is not a youth protection policy of the BSA and should not need be required in any unit.

When you say the scout and adult were wrestling that can mean a lot of different things. What was the emotion of the event? Were they angry, were they joking, was one party the agressor and the other not comfortable with the contact? This matters.

Why was it necessary for the leader to pull the adult off? Was the scout being injured or assaulted? Did the leader ask or instruct the activity to be stopped before they grabbed the other adult?

Scouts come with parents. It's a package deal that you cannot dissolve or wish into non-existence. They are inseparable. If you expell the parent do not expect the scout to be able to stay. If you expelled the scout would you expect the parent to continue?

As for the adult leaders, it's a volunteer organization, they can leave at any time and for any reason. You should base your decision on what is the ethical thing to do for the unit, not based on threats by volunteers to stay or go.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

be of good cheer gtsscouter, 50 boys is not busting at the seams. Many packs have over 100 cubs. What you might want to do if you don't want the event to last 4 hours is to decide what you want the program to be and then plan how much time each element will take.

One pitfall you can avoid that will help you avoid a prolonged meeting is focus on what a Blue and Gold is supposed to be. A birthday celebration for Cub Scouting. Nothing says that you have to do all the same things that you do at other pack meetings. Have a birthday party.

Different packs do different things at Blue and Golds. Some do Webelos crossovers and some do not. Some do Leader recognitions and thank yous and some don't. Some do rank advancements and some don't.

The main thing is that it celebrate the Cub Program's anniversary how you do that is up to you. If you want a 90 minute program then plan a 90 minute program.

The only way it can go 4 hours is if you have a plan to go 4 hours or if you have a plan to do something else but you do not follow it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

First lets keep in mind that the passage SSS and I refered to were not our words but those of the BSA Cub Leader handbook. So since Amethyst's question was about what is correct in uniforming it seems appropriate to know what the BSA says about non-uniform pieces being worn with the uniform. Whether you agree with the BSA's position or not does not alter what the BSA's stated position is.

Secondly not all clothing made in camo is is build for the durability of hunting, just as not all scout uniforms were designed for outdoor use. I think most everyone agrees that the previous Boy Scout Uniform had many features that did not lend itself to use in the outdoors.

What is surprising is that anyone would think that it was since the Scout handbook specifically states that the oofficial uniform was for indoor activities and formal occassions. Even more curious is that a number of leaders knowing that the uniform was not designed for outdoor wear continued to require scouts to wear it for camping.

If you are going to support the wearing of camo or blue jeans thats fine, but please consider not support mixing them with the official uniform. If you want to be out of uniform then be out of all the uniform.

Wear whats appropriate for the activity and the weather and wear it correctly. At least thats a lesson that scouts can use in the future.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It should be noted that the Cub Scout Leader Book specifically states that the Cub uniform is not to be worn mixed with civilian clothing (this would include camoflage or jeans) and that it is better to not wear the Cub uniform than to wear it mixed with other apparel.

Scouts should learn to dress appropriately for the activity. Is the uniform appropriate? That depends on a number of conditions doesn't it? Which uniform? What activity? What is the itinerary? What are the weather conditions?

Let's teach scouts to make good decisions not just do what we tell them to do. Otherwise how will they ever make good decisions without you?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

No such rule has ever existed in the BSA.

Jil, Unfortunately your were misinformed. The BSA Advacncement Policies and Procedures as well as the Merit Badge Councelor Orientation and Merit Badge Counselor instructions say that The counselor is reponsible for meetin the requirements as stated by the BSA nothing more, AND nothing less.

When as Scouts we promise to be trustwothy, it means that the responsibility is on us to be of honorable character. It is nort a mandate for others to trust us.

I agree with eamonn,Select leaders, don't just recruit them. The worksheet he refers to is an excellent and proven tool.

"For our Troop that $8 goes into the general fund which buys patches and supports camping and activity fees. This can included propane, campsite fees, and other activity support."

That's impressive. Could you give us a break down of just how $8 is spread to cover all those items?

The BSA membership requirements on this point are extremely clear cut. Even with the AOL a boy must be at least 10 years old to join a troop.

The wants of the Den leader, the membership totals of your council, and the status of your DE have no sway over the BSA membership requirements.

"We assess each Scout a $30 registration fee that covers Council costs and Boys Life."

Councils do not charge for membership. National charges $10 , Boys' Life is $12. That's $22. What does the other $8 apply to in the budget?

If $50 in dues covers Registration $10, Boys' Life $12, Patches (1 to 3 ranks per scout, average 3 merit badges, a POR patch, perhaps a patrol emblem so avg. about $14, a Handbook $9, that leaves $5 per scout for patrol gear (About $30 per patrol annually).

It seems that one troop is charging too much and one not enough. With a budget shouldn't everyone know exactly where each dollar goes and exactly how much is needed before the price is set?

Practice, practice, practice. Know your presentations thoroughly, and know how they interact with each other and with the rest of the course topics.

While I agree that the PowerPoints supplied by national need some improvement in their readality I would have to disagree with a previous suggestion of using a white background. In fact a good rule of thumb for PowerPoint type presentations is NEVER use a white background. Light color text on dark backgrounds are not only easier to read when dealing with a projected image but creates less eyestrain due to the reduced amount of projected and reflected glare.

You will find that among the easiest to read projected images is yellow text on a medium background with a darker shadow. It's also recommendeed that you use a san serif font no less than 36 pts.

Also make your teaching aids well in advance and have a good packing list so that nothing you need is left behind.

Yes

Solutions or recommendations.

Take a good look at the unit program. if the current scouts are not having enough fun that they are wanting to invite friends to join them then there is something wrong with your unit program. identify the spefic shortcomings and the people resonsible for them, Train ior re-train them and get them pointed in a new and better direction. or simply put someone better in the position.

Task a specific committee member with the job of Webols coordinator to keep in constant contact with Pack leaders. Establish a mutually beneficial relationship with as many packs a you can in your service area.

Do not threaten scouts to recruit. Reward Scouts who recruit.

If any adult member of the troop meets a youth of eligible age, or parents of a youth of eligible age and does not invite the youth to a to a Troop activity then shame on them. If they liked the program they were responsible for you would think they would recruit others to join.