Bob White

Jack

Counselors are registered to the council and not the district so there is no prolem.

Your procedure is excellent and includes all the needed elements outlined by the BSA advancement program.

You are correct that doing it right sometimes takes a little longer, but there are definite benfits to the process.

Nice Job.

Having led a troop that followed the program and knowing what was being done incorreectly it would be difficult to drop me unwittingly into this mess.

If I was being asked by the CR to become the CC, I would first explain to him or her all the things the unit was doing in violation of the Advancement program and its policies. I would ask if it was the CR's intention to get the unit back on track. If it was, I would explain that this would invlove the re-training and possible replacement of key adult volunteers and ask if the CR was willing to weather that storm. If he or she was I would take the postion knowing that the Scoutmaster would have to accept the change that was about to happen or we would have to relace him or her.

If I was being asked by the CC to be the Scoutmaster I would have a similar conversation. If I were going to be the Scoutmaster the CC and the rest of the committee would have to agree that I am the director of the advancement program, and that several things are going to be changed quickly to follow the BSA policies and program, and if they were not willing to do that I would not be accepting the position.

If I were offered the advancement chair I would refuse. As that position was no role or authority in effecting the needed change.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Let me try to answer your questions as if I were still an active Commissioner OGE.

I am sorry if the DE gave you that incorrect information. This is propable not a topic he has dealt with before. But if you stop to think about a troop can only have one Scoutmaster, a unit committee can only have one chairperson, a Pack can only have one cubmaster. So the concept of only having one person in a job is not something new to the structure of scouting.

As you can see here in the rules and regulations of the BSA your unit can only have one Chareter Organization Representative for a number of reasons. One being that the Cr is a voting member of the district and counciul and if you were allowed to ignore the rules and have three CRs it would be an unfair advantage to those units that follow the rules. And is't one of the opurpose to having rules so that everyone plays the game with same advantages and disadvantages?

Secondly, Your solution to have three CRs and yet only show one on the Charter is interesting, however the CR is a registered member and position in the BSA. If you only register one, then you only have one. So you really would not have three CRs as you suggest would you? Now if your CR wants to recruit a couple of helpers that's fine, but they are not CRs as they are not registered and they do not have the duties or authorities of a CR.

Thirdly, and most importantly, the BSA has developed these rules and this structure to help your program run smoothly and to help you have a strong scouting programs. The further you get away from the policies, program, and procedures of the BSA the more problems you will encounter. Is it your intention to try and create more problems than you need?

So there is the harm, the BSA policies say that you can only have one CR, the BSA says the CO can only have 1 vote, the BSA developed these structures for the health and smooth operation for your unit. It is the BSA's program and in signing your charter each year you promised to follow the BSA's policies, procedures, and program of the BSA.

That is why you will need to identify just one person from the charter organization to be the Charter Organization Representative.

I can provide you with a pamphlet that explains the role of the CR in addition I would be happy to provide your CR with training to help them with their new responsibilities.

Commissioner Mode OFF

Trainer Mode ON

OGE asks,"What difference does it make".

Here is the difference.

It is not your role as a commissioner to just nod your head and let units do whatever they want. As a commissioner, YOU are the difference. You are responsible for helping units successfully deliver the BSA program to youth, not your version of the BSA program, or the majorities version of the BSA...but the BSA's Program.

You cannot have a successful scouting program if you aren't actually doing scouting. Doing "stuff" in a Scout uniform is not a Scouting program.

This is a documented, purposefully planned, national program. And as a Commissioner you have a responsibility to represent the BSA program and you should some idea of what the heck you are talking about.

Unit volunteers think you know what the program is, They don't know when you are making it up and when you are telling the truth. They trust you, And as a Commissioner the BSA trusts you to be their representative to the units. When you don't give accurate BSA information you are misrepresenting who you are and what the BSA is.

That's the difference!

What is the phrase...Character Counts.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Don't pick sides OGE, tell us the truth, What is the BSA's rule regarding the number of Charter Organization Representatives that a CO can have.

Don't pick a side, simply determine right from wrong. I am not asking if I am right, I am asking you if the BSA is right about the rules of the BSA.

Even BSA Aims, Methods, and Mission have a right and a wrong. They are specific elements, thers is no variation. Driving a mini-van is not a method of the BSA even if Beavah were to see a lot of Scout leaders driving mini-vans.

The Vision, Mission, and Values of Scouting are specific things and they are determioned by the BSA not by personal opinion. There is a right and a wrong as to what they are. And while there are multiple ways to achieve them, violating the rules is not one of those ways.

This is not about opinion, this is about scout leaders having an obligation to follow the scouting program, and about people who train and support the units having the obligation to represent the program truthfully and accurately.

My "style" Is that I post what the BSA program says it is, as oppossed to what my personal version of it is based on based what I do now, or what I used to in the past, or what I see other units doing outside of the program rules.

You do not discuss the rule on how many strikes in a baseball game make for an out, and then go with what the vocal majority says. You look at the rule book that gives the structure to the game and it says three, so the answer is three.

You don't debate what the rules of the BSA are, you look at them and they give you the answer. Whether you agree with them not is not the question. Whether you obey them or not is a separate issue.

What is rule?

Buy the way I am not a rules guy, I am just another unit leader who knows and follows the program and has not had the problems in over thirty years of unit leadership that are posted on this forum in a single day. I have met and worked with other scouters who know and use the scouting program who have not had the myriad of ailments and confusion that regularly plague posters on this forum.

That's because most problems here are caused by people not being trained or not following the traing, or now it seems being trained by people who do not teach the actual information.

I am here to be a least one voice showing them where to go to get the right BSA info about the BSA program. Because I want them to have fun and I want the youth they serve to have a great scouting experience based on the BSA program, not on my personal opinions.

If that contrast angers those who want to be listened to because they feel their personal credentials are more important that the resources of the BSA so be it.

You wouldn't fault a minister for knowing the contents of the Bible, or a Lawyer for knowing the law, or a Plumber for knowing the right tools for the job. But on this forum, God help the Scouter who knows the contents of the BSA program.

IF clc's scoutmaster were not also the CR in violation of the BSA policy then there would have been no issue. Someone gave his committees and leaders bad information. Perhaps it was a Commissioner who went by his opinion rather than the BSA program.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As long as a boy is eligible to remain in the pack he should have the option to remain until his eligibility ends or he chooses to leave the pack.

If a Cub is eligible to transfer to a Scout troop then he should be given the option and the opportunity to transfer.

If he is eligible to stay in cubbing and you have accepted his membership then you have a responsibility and an obligation to provide a meaningful program to him don't you?

Semantics are not at issue here. No one has questioned any semantics. Beavah and I have not disagreed on the meaning of any word. Our disagreement is based only who and what determines the BSA's program Methods, polices, and procedures.

Moderate this out for us OGE. The BSA says in its Rules and Regulations that each Charter Organization has 1 Charter Organization Represenative for its entire scouting department no matter if they hold 1 or multiple charters. And the BSA says that the Scoutmaster cannot be the CR.

Beavah says that, based on his observations of the real world, that charter organizations can have a CR for each unit they charter.

Would you say the BSA is correct OFE, or that the units that Beavah is basing his opinion on are correct? Because this is not between me and Beavah, this is about what the BSA says the program is and what Beavah and the units he has observed say the program is.

Because there is no middle ground here, either the BSA is the authority on BSA rules, or induividual volunteer opinions are the authority.

You tell us if the question of the thread has been answered and by whom, the documents of the BSA or Beavah's opinion.

I for one am really curious how you see this.

Or do you see the(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is where we differ Beavah.

I don't say that I am right about the topic. I am not even trying to prove I am right. Me being right or wrong "personally" is irrelevant to any topic.

I am sharing what the BSA materials says is right and since the topic is the BSA program then the BSA material is right, and that is what matters.

You say 'that is not what happens in the real world'. So what?!

All you are really saying is that in the relatively few instances you have seen, people where not following the program. That does not make their actions right. Have you considered that some of these folks do it wrong because folks such as you have told them the wrong information? By not following the actually BSA program materials and OFFICIAL resources you create far more problems that you resolve?

You cannot correctly and effectively Commission if your sole source of how to do the program is by what you have seen other people do. You have a responsibility to share accurate information from the BSA about the BSA program.

I have seen a number of adult leaders use an axe incorrectly and hurt themselves. Should that now be how we train people to use an axe simply because that is what we have observed people in the "real world" do it.

That would be incredibly irresponsible. To represent the BSA by telling people what you have seen others do rather than by sharing the correct information from the BSA resources and training is no less irresponsible.

And that is where we differ. I base my information from the official training and resources of the BSA, You base yours on your opinion of what you have seen units do.

There is a right and a wrong way to this. And the BSA says that each CO has one and only one CR that represents the entire scouting department for the CO. The BSA is right, it's their program and their rules.

You say that is not what you have seen, well what you have seen is wrong. What you have shared with other is the wrong. You are using the methods you have seen rather than share the right information that is available through the BSA, information that you are supposed to know how to find as a commissioner.

You are not wrong because I say you are wrong, You are wrong because the BSA determines what is right, and your opinions that you share and teach to others are frequently in direct conflict to the rules and Methods of the BSA.

And that sir is where we differ. And if you are to be allowed to give the wrong information on this forum, then I would hope that Terry and the moderators will allow at least one person to share the official BSA program, and then at least others can choose the Scouting way or your way.

I hope for the sake of the youth that serve that they would choose the Scouting way.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

editorial correction.

There line "Your department is made of the committees and unit leaders of each of your departments" should have ended in quotes to mark the closing of the section reprinted from the manual.

The next three paragraphs should not be in italics.

Thank you

BW

Oe more thing, from The Cub Scout Leader Book, the last line in the job description for the Charter Organization Representative.

"If the chartering organization has more than one unit, one representative serves them all."

The BSA program is not what any one person says it is, it is what the BSA says it is.

"My next question is when and how is scout advancement recorded?"

Lots of different ways, remember that the only thing that must be recorded, outside of the scouts personal record book or handbook, is completed ranks and completed merit badges. Everything else is at the choice of the unit and the preference and agreement of the Advancement Chair, Committee Chair, and Scoutmaster.

Here is a Method I have seen used. A platic milk crate with a hanging file for each scout. Inside was an advancement record sheet. When a Scout completed advancement work he dated the advancement sheet to match his handbook. Merit badge blue card reciepts were also dropped into the files.

Once a month prior to the boards of review the advancement chair would take the files home and update the troop records whether in a book or on a data base.

A Troop Advancement Report was completed immediately following a board of review and sent to the scout office the next day with a recognition order and the wards presented at the next troop meeting. (merit badges were ordered when the scout began the badge so that we always had the badges on hand when the mb was completed.)

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The unit numbers of units within a single CO are not required to be the same.

The number of CRs that attend any given meeting is not a relevent issue to how many CRs a single CO can have.

When it comes to unit charters Parishes do not fall under one corportaion Diocese nor does each school within a school district.

The rules are clear and easy to find.

From the opening page of The BSA Chartered Organization Representative #3318D

The following official description of a chartered organization representative is found in the current revision of the Rules and reguulations of the Boy Scouts of America, Refer to Article Vi, Local Councils, Section 3, Chartered Organization Representative Clause 7, Which reads, "In the teritory supervised by the local councis each charter organization hsal appoint a volunteer, other than the unit leader or assistant unit leader, as its charter organization representative to represent the it as a member of the district committee and a voting member of the local council"

This information is also found in Training the Charter Organization Representative, No. 4-1113

So you see each CO chooses A single respresentative. Need more? Okay.

Page 2, Under the heading "Your Responsibilities as a Charter Organization Representative"

Your responsibilities fall into the folowing three areas

1) You head the "Scouting Department" in your organization, and are responsible for the success of its Scouting Units.

Notice, 1 Co, 1 CR, 1 "scouting department" for all its units.

Still need more? Okay

Page 4 "The Chareter Organization Representatives Tasks'

You head the "Scouting department". The person incharge of your organization and its governing group will look to you as the person responsible for the success of their Scouting program.

Your Department is made of the committees and unit leaders of each of your Scouting units

So you have a choice. If you want to know and follow the Scouting program you can believe what Beavah says or what the BSA says. If it was the Beavah Scouts of America then I would say to follow Beavah.

But it's not! Pretty much anything you need to know to follow the BSA program can be easily found in the training and resources of the BSA. Unlike Beavah I have never said "do what I say". I have said here is what the BSA says, and if your intent is to follow the BSA program then here is the information.

Now I don't know how they teach Commissioning up there is the big city, but here in the little old town I live in we are taught that for a commissioner to be effective you don't need to know all the right answers, you just need to know where to find all the right answers. The correct information about the BSA program, procedures and rules of the BSA are found in the resources of the BSA and not in any one person's opinion or practices. eh?

"Nor is there anything which prohibits it, eh?"

Sure there is!

Ass a Commissioner you know there are numerous BSA resources the tell you that the CR and IH select and approve the Committee Chair.

Show us just one that says the CC is elected by the committee.

The Councils have no authority to designate multiple CRs for the same CO. Each charter organization gets one vote on the the district and council they do not get more votes based on having more units.

You can find the fact that there is only one CR in resources identified in my previous post.

One CR represents the entire family of Scouting programs chartered to the CO. They are the representative of the Charter organization to the units and to the council/district, and they represent the council and district to the unit and the Chareter organmization.

You will find this explained in the Troop Committee Guide, the Cub Scout Leader Book, and the Venturing Leader Handbook, as well as in the Charter Organization Representative training brochure.

Knowing and understanding the role of the CR would be helpful to anyone involved in chartering or re-chartering units, such as commissioners.

I have not heard him speak before, so I cannot answer the second part of your question.

BW

Help me out here Chug. I have had evmori on ignore for several weeks, Check his posts and tell me if you think it changed the tone of any of his posts? I will bet it hasn't.

Did it change my posts? Before I posted about the content of BSA program training and resources and they address specific comments or questions, I still do. No changes,

Do you honestly believe that if BadenP could not see my posts that he would stop posting about me? If I could not see his posts would the content of the BSA training and resources somehow change?

It would seem a personal copunceling session is in order. Explain to her how her behavior is affecting the moral of the committe and explain what the repercussions could be. For instance, why would anyone continue to serve on a committee where they are obviously not treated well by the chairman.

But is she is to be removed the committee has no authority in that hey do have inout however and should discuss the matter with the Charter Orgaization Representative. Only the person with authority to replace the CC is the CR or the Institutional Head. There is nothing in the BSA that allows the committee to vote on the chairperson.

Just in case his post was missed in the Scout Law thread I share it with you here.

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=213332#id_213458

Eamonn

Even if it went to the committee or the Quarterdeck should they not first talk privately with the individuals to try and understand them and the situation better?

Should the committee not be concerned about the scouts being taught the right information for their safety and the correct operation of the boat.

I am not sure that more actions from moderators are needed, what I think is needed is for them to be moderate.

I realize that the second scout in the scenario embarrassed the first by showing that the correct information was different then then the personal habits of the first scout. But that does not make the second scout or the handbook wrong. It means that the first scout was endangering the boat and its crew and passengers.

Had the first Scout known the skill and the task then the second scout would have been very proud of him.

Have you considered why there are so few people active onn the forum who openly use and support the methods of scouting?

Read Docs post that I linked to at the top.

I have PM'd you what I will do about this situation.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Stosh

As clc5105 noted later the information he had received originally concerning the CR was a rumor and it was nothing like the concerns brought up in there actual meeting.

As far as Rule #1 one CO should not charter a troop and a Crew...no such rule exists in the BSA nor do I believe it should or ever will. The goal is that a CO should use every tool available to it through the BSA to serve the youth of their organization of community.

Charter multiple units is not the problem, selecting people who can properly lead and administrate them is the problem. But we have seen that that is a problem in COs with only one unit as well.

If you think that Doc left because of me that would be an error based on the PMs I have recieved for Doc. He did what I have done. He took the training read the manual and learned the information. I know, shame on us both for reading.

If you come to a forum for 2000 personal opinions that's fine, that's your personal choice. But when looking to deliver a program you would think one would want to know what the program was and how to use it.

I am curious, How many posters would stop a stranger on the street and ask for an opinion on how they should lead a scout program? Anyone? And yet some of you do that all the time on the Internet.

Why would so many people works so hard to offer you BSA training and resources to help you have a successful scouting program is all you needed to do was ask a few strangers and follow whatever they tell you to do?

Think of the time and expense that could be saved if that actually worked.

I have never said "do what I say because I used to be a professional", I have never said "do what I say because I have a cute accent", I have never said "do what I say because I am right."

I, and a few others, have said "here is what the BSA says the BSA program is. If you follow it it you will have a better Scouting progran for youth" AND "Here is what the rules are, to ignore them is wrong."

Not based on personal opinion, not based on personal credentials, but using the BSA as the source of information on the BSA programs.

Thats all Doc did and look how he was treated. He did not leave because of anything I did.

Several posters here do not know or do not want to know what the BSA program is. They want to do what they want to do, and they get uncomfortable when that is contrasted with the contents of BSA training and resources.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eamonn Asks "Bob, what would you do if there were two Sea Scouts in the same Crew that even after being asked to cool it, continued to pick on each other and bicker?"

Thank you for asking,

I would talk with them individually and ask them about the relationshipo and whatthey see as the cause and solution. Then I would listen carefully to their answer not for the porpose of finding the solution intially but to try and understand each person better.

Then I would look carefully at what was causing the conflict.

Let's say for instance that one person was teaching a scout how to terminate the woring end of a halyard line after a mainsail was hoisted, but was tying the knot incorrectly or using the wrong knot. As you know there is a right and a wrong way to do this, and if done wrong the mainsail can collapse and the safety of the boat and those onboard would be at risk.

So then another Sea Scout explains that here in the manual it explains the correct knot and the correct way to tie it.

So the first Scout gets angry and verbally attacks the second. The first scout points out that he has a higher rank, or used to be a boatswain in the ship, and uses that as his crentials for teaching the wrong knot.

So the second Scout explains that if not done corectly it can damage the sail or injure a sailor. The first person again verbally assaults the second.

The scout watching is confused and uncomfortable. He is in the middle of a disagreement when all he wanted was to know how to tie the knot.

So he comes to me, the Mate, to help. I talk with both scouts and listen. The first Scout feels he has had his experience and credentials insulted by the second scout contradicting him. The Mate asks the first scout to show him the knot in question.

It becomes evident that the first scout dispite his credentials is not teaching the information cotrrectly, and that the second scout offered the Handbook to help show the correct and safe method.

I would explain to the scout in the middle that it is important for the job to be done correctly and safely that it is best to follow the handbook. I explain to the first Sea Scout that he needs to refresh his skill and follow the manual when teaching new Scouts, and I suggest that he reconsider how he treated the Second Scout and take what actions he feels best reflects the values of Scouting.

I thank the Second Scout for his concern for the safety of the Ship and his fellow scouts, and ask that he work with the Boatswain to lead a Marlin Spike training at an upcoming meeting.

I guess the more inportant question is "how would you handle it" Eamonn? Would you start by asking the entire ship what you should do?

Rememberschiff writes

"Immediate recognition is relatively new in scouting. My unit did not do it in the 60's - we waited until the next COH. Looking at my old scout handbook sixth edition, Nov, 1959. Regarding earning first class page 229.

(after the board of review) ..."Soon after, at a troop court of honor, your Scoutmaster presents your First Class badge to you in front of your friends." .

The same Handbook, same year, same edition, on page 101 says

" At an early Troop meeting, your Scoutmaster arranges for a court of honor ceremony."

Then in the Scoutmaster Handbook for that era it explains that a court of honor takes place at a troop meeting "as soon as" a scout or scouts have completed a rank or recognition.

And that for higher ranks Star, Life and Eagle, or for special recognitions, a formal court of honor including parents is held.

But keep in mind that that was the process in the 50s and 60s. And that in today's BSA program recognizing the scout at the the next troop meeting is still the recommended procedure and an element of the advancement and recogniition method of Boy Scouting. The only real difference now is that courts of honor with parents present are recommended quarterly in order to provide a communication platform to troops as well as an opportunity to reinforce the positive recognition of the scout in front of his parents.

BW

I am not sure what tell you Eamonn, let's consider how BSA leadership skills could be applied.

If you had two people on a committee who did not get along, Would you talk with each of them and listen objectively and empathetically to discover the core issue with each?

Or would you talk to everybody but them and make a decision without any actual information about the two people involved?

Which do you feel would be the better leadership approach?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Nope. Just the few important ones, and they come indexed. They're actually really good, you should check one out sometime.

Good night

Thats excellent BadenP most all of us have a a leaders manual nearby I would think. So if you you would tell us where in any one of the manuals it contradicts what I posted and we will all look it up.

Page numbers aren't needed just tell us the chapter and we can check it out.

Thanks

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Greetings BadenP

If you have knowledge of any BSA resource that contradicts the answer I supplied to the question you posed it would be helpful to all of us if you would name it.

Certainly with the few years experience you have had in the past when you were a professional scouter you know what the various resources are and can provide the one that supports your disagreement with me.

Thank you in advance

BW

That is not the same thing as a dual registration however since IH is not a registered position in scouting nor does the IH hold BSA membership as the CR does.