Bob White

Eagle92 I have responded to you by PM, and please...trust ME on this one.

I never said that the pack should operate like that. I said that you were responsible for your den and not for judging other den leaders.

The fact that you took over for all the absent leaders was your choice. I would never have suggested that you do that.

Ever play team sports? If you are the third baseman, and you don't care for the right fielder, it's not your job to decide if he gets to play or not. Nor is it your role to cover for him if he doesn't show up for a game. Your the third baseman. Your job is to take care of the things the third baseman is responsible for. Nothing more, nothing less. Being on the team does not make you in-charge of the team.

As a Den leader your role is to take care of the program in your den. Not judge the other den leaders and not to tell the Cubmaster what he should or shouldn't do.

I think your decision your leave probably was the best decision you could make. Now the test of your scouting values will be if you can putthe past behind you and not go to the next pack and say unfriendly things about the people you chose to leave.

Thank you for taking the time to understand Sarge.

BW

Yah Beavah sounds like more guess work and no facts.

"High school aged youth like as not can take out a motorboat or sailboat in international waters on their own, with younger scouts aboard."

International waters begin 12 nautical miles off of the coast of a country. Would you please identify what country's scouting program has as a program element the ability of high school aged scouts to take other scouts over 12 miles from shore into the ocean on a sail boat or motor boat.

Thanks.

emb01

Nothing you posted has any bearing on your position that because other countries have different age levels it works better.

You did provide evidence that government mandated membership is used by some countries and yields greater membership numbers. Would that not be an expected result?

Why then are you not advocating we do that since others do it? If what others do is your criteria for what we should do, what is your criteria on what we should copy and what we should not?

Jblake writes "When Eagle is just a recognition of accomplishment, it means just that. When Eagle is a recognition of leadership, it means something quite different."

So you don't see leadership as an accomplishment?

Or just that you only like Eagles who you feel earn the Rank for the thing YOU think they should earn it for?

And yet you are disappointed almost every time. hmm I am shocked.

Sorry Eagle 92 that just doesn't hold water. Many of the countries involved have very few or no professional staff other than a national director. They are almost all volunteer. So we are not taklking about the BSA stats, we are talking about the stats from the other countries.

If the alternate program levels supported by some posters is in fact "the cure" or even one of the cures, then they should be able to show acual measurenents of its benefit. To say others so it differently or proves others do it differnetly. It shows no evidence what so ever that it actually translates into a measurable difference of ANY kind.

To assume that different is better without being able to measure an improvement is just not good logic.

Emb01 writes "So you think the fact that they end 'boy scouting' at 14 is why their numbers are comparable lower then ours????

No, not at all. I think that to suggest change based on what other countries do is a poor reason unless you can show some actual benefit for the change. Different is not automatically better it is just different.

You and others say that the problem is the program level structure, so as evidence you show that other countries do it differently. What you fail to include is any evidence that their way produces better results. All you offer is that it is different.

One would expect that if the problem is in fact the program levels and these countries have solved the problem, then there should be a resulting MEASURABLE effect.

No one has yet to show that. I get it, they do it differently. So what? Show us how that helps them in any way.

Is it all about numbers? It's all about measurable results. Do you know another way to measure without the use of numbers?

Scouts stay in the program in units that actually follow the program.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

No inquisition LisaBob I think you misunderstood the posts.

He explained how he felt about his beliefs and asked how to deal with scouts based on his feelings, didn't he?

My posts did not condemn him in any way. If he accepts the reiligious principles of the BSA then he has no problem as to how he relates with the youth.

He simply explains those principles to them. He helps them to find ways to show reverence to God based on THEIR faith, not on his. Regardless of what organizaed religion they belong to, or don't belong to the values of scouting are still relevant. If he does nothing more than show the relationship between the values of scouting and the Golden Rule he will help them in their faith development.

But he first needs to come to grips with his own beliefs and determine if they are compatible with the membership eligibility of the BSA. Because is his underlying question is "how can I help others to develop their duty to God, if I do not personally feel that?" the answer is...you can't.

Which is why the BSA asks you about it BEFORE you apply for membership.

My posts have not veered off the topic of the thread they are directly related to it.

His role is not to share his belief but to share the BSA values of Duty to God, and Reverence to God. But a leader must first have those values before they can instill those values, don't you agree?

Don't concern yourself with the opinions of Judeo-Christian supremacists. Instead know and understand the membership requirements of the BSA if you want to be a member or leader in the program.

The BSA says, and every adult is required to agree to this as a member, that "no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God..."

So if you do not agree or support that statement then the BSA says that you are not eligible as a member or leader in the BSA.

You must decide if you are being honest about your acceptance of this principle or ar you falsifying your membership qualifications. This is not a camping club. how much a person enjoys the outdoors has little do do with being a scout leader. The BSA is a values based educational organization and if you do not subscribe to their values then you are not eligible for membership or leadership.

And every adult volunteer signed a pledge that they agreed to those terms. So you need to ask yourself... are you being honest about who you are and about your eligibility in the BSA?

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Again emb01, all you have shown is that others do it differently. What you do not offer any evidence of, is whether they do it better. Can you show any measurable benefit of their program over the BSA program that is directly related to the difference in program levels.

As an example, how many countries that use the program level differences you identified have more youth members because of it than the BSA?

I believe the answers is ...none, is it not?

Several of your neighbors may paint their homes differently than yours. Is that how you determine what your home should look like?

A weekend a month is tough on a lot of family schedules. You know a common misconception is that the BSA says a unit should do a campout a month, that's not actually what they say.

The program recommendation is actually an "outdoor activity" each month.

If you planned a monthly troop outdoor activity, and had only some of them as weekend campouts, it might not only get you better attendance but more variety in the program. Plus, it gives Patrols more incentive to plan their own campouts and outings.

That could easily solve your attendance problem.

Scouting is designed to let boys be active in other activities and still earn all the ranks including Eagle Scout.

Keep in mind the BSA has advancement and recognitions based on a scouts participation in Band, Theater, Speech team, Team sports, and other activities outside of scouting. How can you want a scout to promise to be physicall strong and then not encourage them when they do so through sports?

Participation in these other activities give youth a chance to show others the things they learned in Scouting. In Scoutmaster Conferences with boys as I found out what other activities they were in I always asked them what responsibilities they had. I would stress that as a scout they had the skills and experience to not just be involved in the activity but to be a leader in that activity and help others to succeed just as they do in the troop.

Participation in these other activities were another opportunity for scouts to practice and apply the skills and values they were learning in Scouting in their everyday lives.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

NJ Scouter writes "I don't think the rabbit counts as one of the 10 for the requirement. It says "identify and show evidence".

Unless NJ has a very different Handbook his quote in incorrect.

The Boy Sout Requirement says Indentify or show evidence."

If you read the handbook beyond the requirement page (page91 to be specific) you see that the handbook explains ways that the scout can find evidence of the animal. One of those ways is by track identification.

It's important to read the entire handbook.

"Let me ask, The Mission of the BSA is to develop men who make Moral decisions based from the Scout Law and Scout Oath."

Actually the mission of the the BSA is much more than that. You left out some very crucial words.

The Mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

First its not about developing men its about preparing young people. The BSA is not trying to effect just their adult lives but their entire lives.

And secondly it is not about "baseing" the decisions on the values of Scouting but "instilling" them with those values so that they are a natural elements of their character and not a list they run through when they need to make a decision.

I think these are very important differences. I agree with Barry that this is what every adult leader is supposed to be achieving with every scout, we are not a camping club.

You know I think a 10.5 year old knows a lot more than you give him credit for.

You cannot convince me that by the time a boy is scout age that he doesn't know 10 animals. They might not all know the same 10 and they might night know all the ones you point at, byut that is not how the requirement works.

Where do they learn, hopefully you are helping them to understand that they learn everywhere. How about during a pre-opening activity at the next troop meeting. How about at school. Maybe from a library book, or on the Internet. Maybe you just put up some nature posters as meeting room decorations. Maybe a trip to a nature preserve or even a museum.

Where the confusion seems to be is that some scout leaders don't understand that the learning phase and the testing phase aren't suppose to happen at the same time. Their should be some practicing in between. The test comes in the application. Don't test scouts. Instead create opportunities for them to use the skill and then catch them doing things right.

What makes anyone think that the scout has to be on a scout activity to apply these skills. It's his advancement, it's his handbook. if he sees a rabbit run through his yard he should be able to get his handbook turn to page 92 and write in "rabbit".

You are on a campout and you see some raccoon tracks in the mud. You know that Billy is working toward Second Class Rank so you call him over and say "Billy look animal tracks, what do you suppose they are?" if Billy says that they are raccoon tracks, you tell him he's right and to be sure and add it to his list.

If he says it's a dog, you say "you think so, lets check. And you get out your animil ID resource book from your traveling library or backback, and you compare the print to a dogs. "Hmm doesn't a ppear to be a dog, what other animals would live out here?. Eventually together you discover its a raccoon. "Well next time we'll both know, I woulld n't be surprised if that aren't more tracks around here. if you find any more let me know".

Sometimes we are teaching, sometimes we are testing, the scout doesn't need to know either is happening.

Bald Eagle

Sea Gull

Canada Goose

Deer (Tracks)

Rabbit (Tracks)

Cardinal

Grackle

Red Tail Hawk

Skunk (smelled him)

Opossum (they really need to hang around some chickens because they haven't a clue on how to cross a road.)

There's my 10 since Sunday. No hike, no museum, no throwin' nothin into a field, just paying attention to the world around me. Isn't that the real lesson we are trying to teach the scouts?

BW

It's interesting that some people think that because other countries do it differently that the BSA should alter the program to be more like them.

Based on what? Just the fact that they do it differently? Does anyone have any data to show that the other countries that do it differently have consistently better results? Any data that shows a direct link between the other countries' different program levels and... I don't no...more scouts maybe?

Anybody?

As far as "too many units" how exactly is that determined? If I am the District Executive and the Presbyterian Church minister calls me and says they are looking at using the scouting program to enhance their service to youth in the community, you want me to tell them no, Thanks but we have enough units.

I am happy to say that that is not ever going to happen. The Council is a corporation and corporations to not exist in order to get smaller.

Why don't older scouts stay in scouting. False premises lead to false conclusions. The premise is false. There are many units that have no problem retaining older scouts, so "scouting" has no problem keeping older scouts.

UNITS that do not provide good LOCAL UNIT programs geared to older scouts lose them, not Scouting. The question should be...Why do some units retain solder scouts and some units lose older scouts? Its because not all units have good unit programs.

Poor program lose scouts. Good program retain them.

Sarge,

Do you recal when you you first registered as an adult reading adn agreeing to the precepts of the BSA's Ceclaration of Religious Principles?

If so, do you still agree with and support those principles?

Here is what it says in the bylasw. Much of this was excerted i the adult member application form which when you signe you affirmed that you had read and agreed to these principles.

Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cl. 1

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law. The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cls. 2-4.

The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.

Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.

So the question is Sarge ...do you agree with and will you support these principles? If your answer is still yes you have no problem. If the answer is no, then according to the Bylaws of the BSA you co do qualify as a member.

I think you always err in favor of the youth.

If the scout has time as this one does to hold a position then thats where you guide him. If there isn't enough time then you have to consider the fact that this was not a properly admistered program and that is the fault of the adult leadership and not the scout's.

You concerns are valid, I just think you are talking to the wrong people about them. You should be talking to the scouts. Sit down with the life scouts and let them know that you want to see them earn their Eagle according to the requirements and that in the past they have not gooten the ooportiunity to practice and to develop leadership skills.

Tell them why that concerns you and how you want to make the trop and patrol activities youth led and how they can benefit from that.

Then have one of them explain it to the entire troop at a troop meeting. Be positive about it, be excited about them taking meaningful leadership roles. Get everyone on the same page.

Then make sure that sure that the Life Scouts have the opportunity to get their leadership tenure in before they run up against tthe age wall. You don't have to make them lead, you just need to make sure they get the opportuunity to accept a leadership role or to lead a scoutmaster selected projected. If they choose not to that's OK not every Scout is meant to earn Eagle, but every SCout should have the opportunity to try.

BW

I believe you misread the posts RangerT. You need to look again at the badenp's first post. Pay special attention to the fabrication regarding a statement about lawsuits that no one made.

His posts contain false and malicious comments. If he wants to waste time trying to attack me thats fine, but to use that against a scout and falsify information that attacks the boy's charcater is uncalled for.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I guess that is just not your decision as a den leader.

No one forced you to help out the scouts from her den. It was very nice of you to take on that extra work. But I do not think that gives you the responsiblity to judge her or to determine if she should return or not.

Just because they welcomed her back does not mean they no longer like you. This is between The Committee Chair, the Cubmaster, and her.

I could see how others who have no responsibility in the matter might make her return even harder through their complaining and gossip and that would be unfortunate and as unscoutlike as the behavior they are complaining about.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is the good news. Your son cannot fail a Scoutmaster's Conference.

It is not a pass or fail requirement. It is a "had" or "hasn't had" situation.

Sit down with your son and read the actual requirement and you will see that it simply says "Participate in a Scoutmaster Conference" once your son participates the requirement has been met.

Here is what I would do. Remind your sone to wear a clean, neat unoform. Be polite, andswwer questions in a positive and polite manner no matter what else happens.

Ask the committee chair to meet you wherever the conference is going to be. While your son is talking to the scoutmaster you talk to the Chairman. Explain to him or her atht you are concerned that after this meeting the scoutmaster may say that your son has failed the conference. Have the Chairman read the requirement and point out that it is not a pass or fail requirement but simple says that the confernce must take place.

Ask him or her to talk to the scoutmaster immediately following the confernce should he choose to try and fail your son, so that he or she can explain to the scoutmaster how the advancment requirement actual works works.

You should be able to leave with a signed advancement.

Good luck to your son and congratulations to him on his eforts to attain the Eagle Rank.

BW

bsrsakima39,

You show great promise young grasshopper. Your understanding of the importance of serving the scout rather than blaming the scout is outstanding.

Welcome to your new adventure as an adult leader. I hopw you enjoy it for many years.

BW

Your problem is two fold.

One as the CR it was your role to find and advisor for the Crew not be the advisor for the crew. You have created a role conflict that is compounding the problem.

As the Crew Advisor it is the quality of the program offered by the Crew.

Second, as the CR your problem is that the Troop Scouting program you are the CEO of has a program weakness and is not holding the interest of their older scouts. Your goal as CR should be having three independent but strong programs. If the troop was offering a program that appealed to older scouts the the crew would be relying on bring more youth into the program from outside the troop and everyone would be better off.

The BSA registration rules allow the CR to duplicate as a unit committee chair but not as the unit leader. You could resolve you dilemna by choosing to be either the CR or the Crew advisor but not both.

Either choice you make will be in the best interest of the Scouting programs at your CO(This message has been edited by Bob White)