vol_scouter

Brent, First, no offense taken. As to diversity, I did not say nor mean to imply race or any other marker of diversity. I still do not agree in changing the program for diversity's sake. We should be developing a vigorous outdoor program. That will attract youth of diverse backgrounds, religions, races, etc. We should not make programs to target certain groups. I could only work that part of the ticket if it involved assuring that the youth who meet the BSA requirements are never blocked from joining. I can understand the experience that you had with the PhD and I assume that you were not meaning it personally. So some people do not make good leaders and do not recognize it. If your comments were meant personally, then you do not know me. I have been asked to lead groups since I was a youth without me seeking the position. In meeting, I usually talk little and listen interjecting only when I can make a valuable point. Most everyone calls me by my first name because true respect is earned. I am easy going and not too concerned with who gets credit, especially in things like scouting. So while you may have had a bad experience with a PhD, it was not me. Professionally, I am asked to lead teams presumably because I do it well. There is certainly much that I can learn and I do not consider myself as an expert in management. However, as I mentioned, the worst mangers that I have encountered had business management course training so I am not impressed. In this day and time when most adults have little outdoor experience, WB should be more about leading outdoor programs and little business management. My life experiences have consistently shown little evidence of benefit of the introspection implied in the ticket. So while I might be wrong, I see no benefit for taking the current WB course.

Brent, WB or the WB ticket do not 'scare' me. The ticket reads like a lot of touchy-feely things that I have been forced to do throughout my life and I have never found them to be beneficial. The business managers with whom I have dealt that had this kind of training were all horrible managers. The whole course seems like a waste of time at best and from my personal experiences, detrimental at worst. In my council, the majority of the best SM and ASM are not WB trained but most holding positions at the district or council level are WB trained. Reading the ticket only confirmed my fears. Finally, according to that website, on item is how to increase diversity in scouting. I work closely with people of diverse races, religions, backgrounds, et cetera. I like a diverse environment but I do not believe that diversity should be a goal. To achieve that goal, scouting will lose its' identity and become things such as a soccer club. If scouting has an active youth led program and opens its doors to all who meet the membership requirements, then it will be diverse. So though I normally agree with Brent, on this issue, I must respectfully disagree.

JoeBob, Thanks for the link about the ticket! It made up my mind as well. SM this day and time really need skills not introspection.

I echo skeptic's suggestion. I believe that there are some professional historians who participate in these forums who might work with Terry and others to write a good biography. I would like to see one and would gladly purchase it.

Merlyn, I have read a similar thing but I have never tried to verify its' veracity. I seldom remember a military coup that did not result in a dictatorship. We must hope that Egypt breaks that mould.

PackSaddle, I agree with your assessment of our strategy but it seems to me to have been a mistake. We end up supporting dictators and not democracy which makes us disliked in the rest of the world. Perhaps, if oil prices were to rise, we would throught the market place develop other energy sources and finally become less dependent upon foreign oil. We would force an easing on regulations that are too stringent on oil exploration and would start new nuclear plants. So if you can propose things that have a low likelihood of success, so can I. As to your competence remarks, it depends on your viewpoint. Obama had overwhelming majorities in both houses and only got medical care reform passed. I would aver that record makes President Bush several orders of magnitude more capable than Obama.

Packsaddle, I would suggest immediate withdrawal of troops in the middle east. We should never enter into another war unless we have the will to win which we do not with political correct thinking. Case in point, soldiers are getting killed by suicide bombers. Many of those suicide bombers can easily be defeated by making them strip at a safe distance. However, we do not want to offend the sensibilities of the people. If we are fighting a war, we should have more concern for the welfare of our troops and winning. If we cannot do that, then pull the troops out. Also, Europe has been largely defended by our troops since WWII and they can do that themselves so we should pull out of Europe as well. That would allow one to cut the absolute dollars spent and to increase the amount invested on R&D for better weapons and protection for our soldiers. I agree with removing the cap from social security taxes and the SS fund should be taken out of the budget immediately (I believe that President Reagan did that with improvement in the fund only to have a later congress and president rob it again). Get the goverments out of the medical care business and ask the states to enact insurance reforms so that basic policies would be available to all. The states can probably require medical insurance of their citizens unlike that the federal government where it is not a constitutionally enumerated power. So I essentially agree with you and it needs to happen soon.

The percentage of homosexuals in the population according to the CDC is 1.9%. I have presented references to studies that incite that the percentage of sex with pubertal children by adults is ~2-5% due to homosexuals which makes Mr. Boyce's statements hard to confirm or deny. Pedophiles have sex with prepubertal children and thus do not really apply to Boy Scouts very much since most are pubertal or post pubertal. Pedophiles are also primarily heterosexual but are so ill tat such labels are somewhat meaningless.

It is not discrimination to be denied membership because you do not meet the requirements. If you are 5"2" and 120 lbs. you are not going to play in the NBA or the NFL. If you cannot do higher mathematics, you are not going to be a physicist. If you cannot understand pathophysiology or have a bad memory, you are not going to be a physician. If you never served in the military, you can't be in the VFW. So if you do not meet the membership requirements for the BSA, you should be honest and not join or leave if a member. You are not a victim of discrimination.

CalicoPenn, Hyponatremia in the span of one day would require either large quantities of water or large fluid losses (vomiting or diarrhea). The second does not seem likely (it would have been mentioned in a description of the events). To become so hyponatremic that one passes from over hydration in a part of a day that the patient dies is not impossible but would seem to be less likely than heat stroke. Since an over weight youth can sometimes over indulge in whatever he does, he could have drunk an enormous amount of water. I would certain want to question the parents and all members of the hike about any recent acute illnesses with emesis and/or diarrhea. He could have been an undiscovered diabetic who developed hypoglycemia. He may have had undiscovered heart disease though the clinical history seems less likely. Without an autopsy, it will be only a guess by any of the expert witnesses called by both sides. The story is unclear as to the actual sequence of events. The way that I understand the events: 1) Boys got hot and tired; 2) Leaders take and extended break for water, rest, and to cool off; 3) After boys said that they were OK to go, the hike was resumed; 4) The young man has more problems and collapses; 5) 911 is initiated and CPR started. The 1.5 hour time I understand is from the first break to the call to 911. If that is the case, it seems that everything may have been done appropriately. If 4 occurs and then there is a time of 1.5 hours, I doubt that there is going to be a very effective defense because that seems to be far too long. I hope that this helps.

Beavah, It seems to me that many of the Islamic nations of the Middle East are composed of young people who get a lot of radical views from local religious leaders or from religious leaders on the internet. These young people are also underemployed and as all young people, have a desire to do tinges differently from the previous generations. The combination makes a revolution likely. Just my observations.

ClemLaw, You said: "But that's not a legal/moral issue--that's just a matter of me not knowing enough what to do." That is my point with the current First Aid courses. Since the most common cause of death in the outdoors is anaphylactic shock, there should be a considerable amount of time spent in first aid training on the topic. However, the legal ramifications of appropriately treating someone with anaphylactic shock discourage books to be published with instructions and people are concerned with the ramifications as evidenced in this thread. Our legal system is the backbone of our Republic but it does not always serve the best interests of the public well as this is a case in point. Your attitude is correct - try to save a life.

Several comments: You try to save the person having the anaphylactic reaction unless you have reason to believe that the person with the Epi-pen is likely to have a reaction (have encountered lots of poison ivy, hymenoptera, etc.). The person suffering should be transported for care ASAP since the reactions can recur after a short period of time. If the emergency medical personnel cannot replace the Epi-pen, the person supplying pen should be evacuated. Epinephrine cannot cause an allergic reaction because it is what our body produces (for some reason it is popularly referred to as adrenaline which is the British name). The other adrenergic biochemical produced by the adrenal glands is norepinephrine (British - noradrenaline) which has much the same actions as epinephrine. So do not be concerned about an allergic reaction. That does not mean that the patient cannot have adverse reactions. If someone is having a myocardial infarction (heart attack), the administration of an Epi-pen could be fatal. Thus, the reason to determine what is likely to be happening. In general, you are always better off trying to save someone than to do nothing as long as you know what most likely should be done. That is morally, ethically, and legally. It would be easier to defend giving someone an injection of epinephrine and them still dying from anaphylactic shock than to watch them die.

A problem with first aid courses is that they often skip some of the important problems that are LIKELY to be encountered. CalicoPenn discussed one - diabetes. Type I has been a problem in scouting for years but little is addressed. The mostly common cause of death in the US in the great out of doors is anaphylactic shock. This is a topic that is often not covered or not covered in detail. That is sad because an injection or two of epinephrine can save a life. However, the provider needs to distinguish this from shortness of breath associated with a myocardial infarction (heart attack) which is not to difficult. So I would like to see a revamping of the adult at least first aid courses.

A few comments on CalicoPenn's post, first - Calico is to be commended for picking up on the sweet smell of the young man's breath and realizing the situation. Second, this is an example of why medical forms should be available on all outings and, in my opinion, such things as Type I Diabetes Mellitus needs to be known by several adults. Third, a Type I diabetic with a high blood sugar and one or more of the following: emesis (vomiting), diaphoresis (cold sweating), high or low temperature, symptoms of an infection of any sort (cold, cough, infected cut, etc.), or altered mental status NEEDS PROMPT MEDICAL CARE!!! Even if given insulin results in their blood sugar comes down somewhat and they feel better they still need professional medical care. They are likely to need LITERS of fluid, be acidotic, and can have dangerous electrolyte shifts. Fourth, it is important to know if the person is a Type I or Type II diabetic. Type I diabetics tend to be young when it begins, thin, and MUST have insulin from the beginning of their illness because their islet cells which produce insulin have been destroyed. Type I diabetics can easily develop diabetic ketoacidosis which is a medical emergency/urgency. As noted above, it should not be treated in the field. Type II diabetics are obese and typically develop the disorder later in life though with morbidly obese children, this is rapidly changing. Type II diabetics do produce insulin but the insulin does not work as well as it should (insulin resistance), can initially be controlled by oral drugs, and rarely do Type II diabetics develop diabetic ketoacidosis. Type I diabetics can participate and should participate in all activities. They tend to know a lot about their disease and can usually take care of themselves (obviously, age and maturity related) but they can get into trouble quickly. I encourage everyone to read about Type I diabetes for themselves and certainly do not take my comments as definitive. Remember that evidence of diabetic ketoacidosis means that the person needs prompt, definitive medical care.

SeattlePioneer, I could not agree more with your observations. The direction that society is going will take away much of freedom and liberty for a facade of safety. Unfortunately, it pervades society and, as leaders, we will be held responsible. Society wants life to be risk free which is impossible. This is easily seen in high profile accidents where congressmen quickly lineup to say that they will find 'who is to blame'. Sometimes there is blame but often the accidents are unforeseen circumstances and no one 'is to blame'. That does not mean that lessons cannot be learned. So if society always wants someone to blame and will be happy with a scapegoat, people feel the need to protect themselves. It is not good for the country and is a sad comment on our people who were at one time independent and self reliant.

TwoCubDad, You ask a good question. I am an MD (internist) and have taken and taught many first aid courses. I agree with Beavah and other posters that WFA or WFR should be training goals for scouters in the back country. That said, when I am on an outing, I have experience that makes me more calm and training that makes me more preceptive. That is an advantage for EMT, MD, etc. trained people but I have no abilities in the field beyond that of most anyone else. In the case being considered, in the field I could have done no more than the SM and ASMs. Whether they went on instead evacuating the boy would not have been my decision, I cannot determine. Even then, I would have to rely partly on my medical intuition as to 'how ill' someone is. Thus, someone mastering WFA or better WFR would be for the most part able to do most anything that an MD could do. At the hospital, it is clearly different and I can do many effective interventions. A point to Beavah, for most things the age group of Boy Scouts and Venturers can e treated as adults, there are few changes in medication doses etc. I agree that some attention should be paid to the fact that we deal with youth in training. hat said, I suspect that most scouting related deaths are in the adults. It is not national news worthy if some old goat like my self dies on the trail but it always is if it is a youth. At Philmont, there is a death every other year or so but it is almost always an adult. This topic best exemplifies why we should ask scouts and scouters to master skills and not learn them for the day in a training exercise.

Not a surprise NJCubScouter. The left/progressives can never criticize their own when they have clearly done something wrong. The hatred and vitriol leveled at conservatives before anything was known about the assassin is truly disgusting.

Republicans seem to always do what is expedient in dealing with other countries. So even if a country is the antithesis of our values, republicans will support the regime if it supports US interests. Democrats say the right thing but end up doing the same thing. We should become an honest broker in the world.

So NJCubScouter, are you appropriately condemning the left for blaming conservatives before even the assassin's name was released? The vitriol has come from the left toward Sarah Plain, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and others. The left glorified people advocating the assassination of President Bush. They said don't jump to conclusions about the Fort Hood murderer but in this case it had to be conservatives. So hopefully, your post is placing the blame in this instance on the progressives where it belongs.

broken, MDMA, according to Wikipedia, was synthesized in an effort to find coagulants for bleeding diatheses. There were several attempts to find as use since it is in the amphetamine group of drugs. It was never an FDA approved pharmaceutical and has never had a legal use if Wikipedia is correct. At this time, there is no medical indication for the drug which is a dangerous and addictive.

OGE, I did not think that you were but this sort of forum is a poor source of communication for anything that is nuanced. It is important to me that someone reading this forum did not take the saying as a literal truth in how a surgeon first does a complicated and difficult surgery. Happy New Year's!

Beavah, Clearly, the real problem is when a youth has a requirement signed off that is not mastered. However in our politically correct society which is damaging our youth while claiming to protect them, that is not likely to be accomplished. The idea of a youth who has not mastered a skill becoming a teacher has to be applied individually. Consider a responsible youth who knows how to do a skill but needs more practice to really master it. Then asking the youth to teach the skill should lead to mastery. If the youth really does not know the skill, then asking them to teach it by themselves is folly. There is a middle ground that I have been able to employ with some success. Have an adult or an older scout (which ever, they must have true mastery of the skill) ask the scout who has been passed but has no mastery to assist. That way, the youth doesn't feel that they are having to redo the skill but with close supervision, that will in essence be what happens. Even then, they must have a least some competence. OGE, "See one, Do one, Teach one" saying was one that I heard many times but seldom if ever applied in that manner. The idea that after seeing a procedure once that you would have to advance that quickly, does tend to improve one's concentration. As you might think, the simpler the procedure, the more applicable the saying. Such as doing a radial artery blood gas. Also, the teach one is always to be done with a more experienced person observing the teaching. The do one is always observed (by requirement). The more complex the procedure, the more 'seeing' before ever doing the procedure. I have never been asked to perform a procedure that I did not have sufficient instruction. The idea is still that seeing, doing, and teaching something is the best method to assure mastery and long term retention.

Following along PackSaddle's lead: Why in this thread do you have to be inner city to be poor? The poorest counties in my state are in rural counties which are bereft of cities of more than about 50,000. In many ways, they often have less than the poor in the inner city. The rural poor in the past did not have significant drug abuse problems but that has happened as well. In my area, there are many programs to assist inner city troops. When I used the term poor troops referring to the inner city, I was corrected. It seems that most troops in our area in the inner city are well equipped whereas many rural troops are not. So it should be just the poor. While on this topic, while an undergraduate in college my son took a course on the history of Appalachia. The Historian discussed in his class and his book how the standard of living declined in Appalachia when the government stepped in to eventually become the sole source of assistance. This lead to the disintegration of the community and the end of self reliance. Although some things require government assistance, taking away a sense of community and destroying people's self reliance and replacing it with dependence on the government is bad.

The level of abuse does not bestow upon a drug a medicinal role. If alcohol were to be considered by the FDA, it would never be approved. Smoking marijuana is never likely to approved by the FDA. If the people wish for marijuana to be a legalized drug such as alcohol and cigarettes, that is the prerogative of the people in our democratic republic. If memory serves me correctly, this past election California voters rejected such a change for smoking marijuana. Until that occurs, marijuana is ILLEGAL and its use should not be supported in any manner in front of scouts. Scouters who do so should be counseled and if they refuse to change, they should be removed. for encouraging minors to break the law. No matter what our personal views on marijuana are, it is wrong to in anyway condone its use to minors. In my state, it is a crime to do so. As scouters who have the responsibility to care for young people, we must support upholding the law even if we do not agree.