vmpost

Aaah, Beavah, I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with the rest of your statement!

Call me a purist if you will, but I believe we have an obligation to our youth to follow National BSA policy whenever we can. I follow the rules. A Scout is honest & trustworthy. So if I know a rule exists and I don't follow it, what standard am I setting?

By not following this particular rule, the Scoutmaster puts a boy's Eagle Rank at risk. While I know this is a big "what if", bear with me for a minute: Suppose a young man submits his Eagle application. When it reaches Council or National level for approval it is discovered he didn't actually have the correct approval for his Star Board of Review, throwing his Star rank into question. It is possible (although not likely) his Eagle could be "not approved". This is a risk I am not willing to take when it is so easy to avoid the problem.

In regards to small committees -- I am VERY familiar with them. Our committee has 4 members. We only came up with 4 so the parent who has a child up for review can sit out. We had to switch one of our SA's to Committee so we'd have enough. The former SA still attends troop activities, as does most of our committee.

I'm not saying anything about anyone's ability or character. I'm saying we must do what we can to safeguard our Scouts' future opportunities.

I'm not judging right & wrong. I'm saying it is the rule and if I don't follow it, I risk getting slapped on the wrist. (The Scouts under my supervision risk more.)

It is a PIA sometimes...but we are intelligent human beings. We can figure out a way to follow the rules and be honest while working around the constraints. Do we really have to prove we are "right"? Is that more important than serving our youth to our best abilities?

Crew21 -- I loved your response!

Oui! There are abominable training courses out there. For them, I am ashamed. Part of the problem is the training material, part of the problem is the trainers. It saddens me. It frustrates me. It angers me.

Are there any nearby councils/districts where the training courses are better? Go there. Do not "train" where you are getting no value. All you are training for is perserverance or a knot.

While I served as District Training Chair (Aha! Now you know why I was on the soapbox! ) I worked hard to get the BEST trainers. Yes, we offered what was in the BSA material as "required", but oft-times we spent a lot LESS time on those topics than scheduled and a lot MORE time on the skills that were requested or needed. I had to "fire" some volunteers, and that is always very difficult. Actually, I usually tried moving them into a more supportive role with less interaction or "teaching" time. We had good response from our district leaders, and our District had the highest percentage of trained leaders in our council, a level previously unreached by any other district in our council. We had leaders coming from other districts and other councils. I am tired. I turned it over to the next in line. I hope the quality continues. If it does not, the leaders in my own unit will go to another district or council.

Know how I got "hired" for the job? While shopping in our Scout Shop, I rather foolishly mentioned to our DE that we needed to get a Dist Training Chair who would actually schedule trainings, follow-up on it, and provide quality trainers. Without missing a beat, he said, "Okay. When do you want to start?" Unfortunately, that's how MOST districts get their training people.

It is my wish that people who are good with a skill & good at sharing that skill would volunteer for their own District Training Staff. Wow! Wouldn't we have some awesome training then!?! If some of those people who have tons of training outside BSA would/could volunteer to help those within their district, WOW! Wouldn't that be some dynamic training? They do not.

No, you should not attend poor training.

No, you should not send your leaders to poor training.

Yes, you should go to training.

Yes, you should seek quality training.

Ideally, YES, your council/district would provide it locally.

Realistically, they gotta' go with what they can get.

Oui. I am ashamed.

Make sure he's getting enough to drink, too. We usually camp in the mountains and they don't realize how much they can dehydrate nor how quickly. Appropriate drinks are important, too. (Water vs. sodas, fruit juice vs. caffiene)

Altitude sickness or dehydration can make a child think he's homesick because he doesn't feel well.

And let me reiterate what EagleinKY says, "Don't mother him." !!!!! I am female, and while the temptation is sometimes there, it is NOT in the best interest of the Scout!

In the heat of a bout of homesickness, DISCOURAGE THEM FROM CALLING HOME! Try to distract them with other activities until the worst wave passes. Then make a judgement call as to the phone call. In our troop, we try not to have our boys call home as it just seems to encourage homesickness. Homebound parents may be well-meaning, but are often much of the problem.

Keep them busy but not exhausted. Exhaustion and tiredness lead to wanting a Mommy's touch. But do keep activities going. Keep them clean. It sounds wierd, but the sweaty, dirty boy will be more pensive than the clean Scout.

Nighttime can be the hardest. Pair likely candidates with another Scout who is a little more seasoned about being away from home. Make sure they know they can wake up the PL or even you if they need to talk it out.

Prepare the tent partner & PL with ideas on how to cope. Give ideas on how to redirect the conversation, like, "remember when", what they did that day, something to get them laughing, maybe reading a book, ...

Go for it! It validates them and empowers them. If they are heard in the little things, they might get braver yet! We have done movie nights, they enjoy it, and they really don't ask to repeat it very often...maybe once every 4 years. As fgoodwin says though, set some guidelines. Scout "conduct, spirit, behavior" would all be good terms to use. Then let them select, with final approval by you or the committee.

Beavah, you say, "I've seen a few troops that still have boys participate as board members on BOR's. That, too, was a BSA standard." That's okay, as long as there are three registered committee members on that Board also. That is a national standard and our District will not approve advancement without that standard being met, nor should any.

BSAs current Wood Badge material was outsourced. The actual training is completed by local volunteers who have spent countless hours and driven countless miles for the previous 18 months working on putting together a program for us. They deserve more respect from us than this. Even though I personally didnt learn a ton from Wood Badge (I have been well-trained in management and teaching and routinely read all my manuals), there is virtually NO training that occurs in which NO learning occurs, unless we have the mindset from the beginning that the training has nothing to offer. I still learned a different approach, a different viewpoint, and built some great friendships. I still appreciate the staffs time & effort.

ScoutNut says, You complain that BSA training is not worth your time. Are the boys worth your time? Is the program worth your time? If you answer "yes" to the last 2 questions, then taking the BSA training so that you can offer your boys the best possible BSA program SHOULD also be worth your time. I agree completely. You need to attend to learn those BSA specific things that you cant learn through other resources.

He also says,if you would like to see your District's training improved, then you should volunteer to be a part of your council's training team. He is right on the money there. Be proactive rather than reactive. Help the training team get better at helping the trainees. Do what you can to help fix what you perceive to be wrong with training. While youre there, you might just learn respect for the volunteer training staff, respect for the challenges they face in finding excited, motivated, and skilled staff, and you might even learn a little more about the BSA program. (You knowsee one, do one, teach one.)

I agree with John-in-KC that we need quality training & trainers. Training teams strive for that. But sometimes it is very difficult to get volunteers to return to put-downs and disrespect. They dont have time to waste on ingrates. Especially for the awesome salary they are making.

I dislike it when the trainer reads the slides, or something similar. But there is still something to be learned, even if it is, Gosh, I think I could do this better. Ill just volunteer. Still, it is unfair to judge all trainings & trainers by one bad experience. (Too, due to outsourcing the material, to a certain extent, they are limited as to how much they can change the format.)

Yes, we can outsource all our training. But there goes the reasonable cost. What about the Leader Specific & Outdoor Trainings? Multiple training opportunities would become cost prohibitive.

Be appreciative of their efforts, look for the positive, build them up rather than tearing them down, and volunteer to help make training a more positive experience.

Next on the soapbox?

In our Pack, the standard 3 den meetings/1 pack meeting per month. There can be variations...one den leader needed to have 2 den meetings per month, but meets a little longer. I have worked with 4 Webelos groups (and still am) and have been with a Troop for 10 years, now, too.

Clyde, what you describe will definitely work. When I say "den meetings", that is loosely defined...we do many outings, too. That keeps it fun & exciting. But we usually work on requirements while there. Go on a hike & work on Outdoorsman or Leave No Trace. Go play Tennis and work on Sportsman. Go swimming and test for Aquanat. Go to a Boy Scout meeting and learn how to retire a flag for Citizenship.

The key is looking at the requirements and figuring out how you can work them into fun outings. Learning can be painful or it can be fun. Camps are a wonderful opportunity, whether they are Council camps or just your den. Much can be learned or shared.

I agree with Beaver, don't do all the required badges too early, or they will be bored.

Good Luck!

uz2bnowl -- RIGHT ON!

We all have the same amount of time. Sometimes those trainers are missing a soccer game, GIVING UP THEIR TIME, to offer training. Our kids DO deserve trained leaders...people who know how to deliver a quality program, safety issues, etc.

We chose to have these children. Now choose to make a quality life for them! And what a wonderful time we can have with them. They are FUN! Even other people's kids are fun. (Waaaay more fun than mowing the lawn! lol)

emb021, you say it well too, with "I wonder how a leader who doesn't have the time to take training has the time to be a leader?"

If they don't have time to get training, how can they possibly have time to be a quality leader? Aaah! There is is! But the truth is, if they would only get trained, they would have more time to lead, because they wouldn't have to constantly re-invent the wheel.

acco40,

Yes, they will & do sell me one for an additional shirt if I have already earned it, but they will NOT "just sell me one" so I can "look good", I want it, or whatever. That is what I meant. But then, they have already checked me out and have a record of me earning it, so it isn't "just selling me one" is it? Sorry if I misunderstood what Oaktree was saying.

Again...we are very rural here, so...

We invite about 10 troops. We have anywhere from 12 - 20 counselors and usually around 40-60 boys. Sometimes more, soemtimes less, depending on the timing, etc. We come from a large geographical area (about 3600 square miles--less than 1/3 the District), but virtually all the leaders and most of the boys know each other before we get there, so we are at least "familiar" with the boys wanting to get an edge on the MB's...usually the ones who actually have some self-drive.

As I mentioned in my previous post, since it is so hard to find MB counselors for some of the badges, we do take our material to District events, too, so boys can visit us any time there, too, either to finish up or ask questions.

Not ideal, but it's what works for us out here.

Often, your District Training Staff wants to help reach for the 100% trained level, too, and will BRING IT TO YOU. Ask! It never hurts to ask. The worst they can do is say no. Our District routinely takes it TO units on a date they choose. This is when you really find out who was too busy and who has no intention of attending. Those District Trainers are volunteers, too, and find time to be trained and share that knowledge on!

We sometimes work on Merit Badges at troop meetings, but: 1) We work on them, we don't usually complete them - Scouts have to do that on their own, 2) That's what the Scouts want to do, and 3) It IS set up by the Scouts. Par for the course, the only problem we usually have is the adults who want to put their finger in! (Example: Boys lined up 2 young men who taught Pioneering at summer camp to come and work on it at a troop meeting. One of the adults kept going over to "help" and tell them the right way to do it. The boys were deferential to her, but I finally had to ask her point blank, "But did the boys ask you to teach this, or did they invite those boys who are doing a great job?" "Then you need to come over here with the rest of the adults."

Sometimes we just can't help ourselves, can we? We can do it better/faster/"our way". Many of the adults cannot fully see the advancement from Cubs to BS's, and want to continue to be a Den Leader. If we can step back and empower our youth (yes, be there to mentor & guide them & teach them leadership skills) WOW! Awesome things happen! And they just might decide to work on a MB at a troop meeting, but they might go to a climbing wall, practice dutch oven cooking, or just CHILL.

Yikes! They will just sell you one?!?! We have "Knot Police" here. Our DE accepts the application and the District Committee verifies EVERYTHING you put down! Training records are checked scrupulously, CC's are contacted, charters are reviewed, ... The Knot Police do their job.

Meanwhile, get plenty of backpacking experience! While not the toughest trek our Troop has gone on, it definitely shouldn't be one of the first.

Aaaah...but what about all those EMPTY containers that get put back in the fridge or cupboard? (A new thread actually, but I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned!)

Hawks...Steelers...What in the world are you talking about? I'm going to the District (Scout) Dinner Sunday...I HOPE no-one is going to be stealing hawks there!

Scouts must be 14 by January 1 of the year the troop is attending or 13 and completed 8th grade. Hope this helps.

Good advice...listen well. I have been involved in "putting a Pack back together", starting a new Troop, AND starting a new Venturing Crew. I cannot imagine doing two of them at the same time. Each is very time intensive and very psychologically intensive.

Not everyone shares our vision...and we need to make sure our "vision" of BSA programs is in line (not a carbon copy) of BSA intention...thus the training.

Heed well what was said about Crew ADVISORS. When we started the Crew, I signed on as Committee Chair. Even though the Advisor was trained, for the first five meetings I had to tell him to leave the discussion table. I asked him to come over to a different part of the room and discuss our visions and what we'd like to see. Then I talked to him about what we could hear the youth discussing. I directed the conversation to how our visions & the youth's were different and whose should prevail... IT IS DIFFERENT. IT IS FOREIGN TO MANY OF US. We are ADVISORS.

I was recently asked to teach at a Merit Badge Fair, and at first I said NO! As I spoke to the organizers about it though, it made more & more sense. We met three different weekends, spaced a couple months apart. NO ONE completed a badge the same day he opened it! The boys looked into the various badges they thought they might like, then visited with counselors & signed up for the ones they wanted. They went through an introduction the first day, then did work on their own. The 2nd weekend, they could show they had completed one, visit with the counselor on what more they needed to do, or sign up for another MB.

We live in a VERY rural community, so I liked this because it provided an opportunity for boys to work on MB's outside what our troop has counselors for. Within our troop we cover all the required MB's, and try to have two choices per MB (although it doesn't always work that way). Then we try to have counselors available for as many of the electives as possible. But with a limited community size, we are limited on MB counselors. Neighboring troops have the same problem. So...if we can "share" these counselors and have them available for Scouts in other units (sometimes from 60-100 miles away) it is a big plus! At least they have an opportunity they wouldn't otherwise have.

It has become customary for some leaders to take all their MB information to District events so they are available to other Scouts in the District. It occurs much like the "Fair" above...I've had boys from other troops open badges around our campfire, then look me up months later at another District event. Email is a great way to stay in touch with them, too!

Good questions, OGE. And the odd scout DOES exist! We just had one who missed several meetings and an outing. We discovered this was because he was serving as a deacon in his church and was helping there. We certainly didn't hold him back for this! Congratulated him, though.

We live in a small town, and I usually know most of what is happening. People call to report on the Scouts at times! Now the boy (scout) who backed into a flag pole & drove off without telling the owner, we had some issues with. (The owner wasn't even that upset about the flag pole, but called to tell us that the scout left the flag laying on the ground.)

I usually include a question to the effect of, "Have you indulged in any un-Scout-like behavior I should know about?" They usually fess up.

BTW - it takes less than 1.5 minutes to brew a cup of espresso

Re: portable tent heaters. They come with careful instructions and warnings. None-the-less, just last year a couple around here zipped the tent shut tight to keep the heat in...They never woke up. I would stay away from them and certainly would never allow a Scout to use one. Even if they avoided the asphyxiation concern, there is still a concern about the heat melting a sleeping bag or tent...

We like our Coleman oven and LOVE our "fish cooker"... (the burners that are often used to deep fry turkeys) We can keep lots of hot water in winter months, cook on it, and have even roasted marshmallows over it.

Snow Peak backpacking stove is tiny & lightweight, but delivers great heating capability. And for those of you who love your joe...the backpacker's espresso maker is unbeatable! It is tiny, too, in true backpacker form, and we have even used it in motels. My oldest son used to make espresso in his bathroom in the morning before his shower!

The only thing domestic about me is that I live in a house. That being said, I REALLY don't like to sew. We use several solutions in our troop...sometimes I take a sewing machine to a troop meeting & the boys use it. Sometimes we have a parent who can't/won't help with camping and is happy to help by sewing patches. Often we look for a "push-over" who will do it (yep, that'd be me!) In 20+ years of Scouting, I think we've only had one family who actually paid someone to sew them on. Boys can learn this skill...with a needle & thread no less!