Vicki

See, this would be why I'm not going there...so far, I haven't indulged in any obviously biased, inflammatory language - I haven't called anybody a hack nor have I accused anyone of disrespect.

And I won't.

But, for some alternative viewpoints which you can castigate and dismiss if you wish, go to

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc5.htm

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

>BTW Ed are you saying you will be backing up all your claims from now on? Just sayin' >

Thanks, OGE. My dad has a wall hanging my sister did for him, "Never try to teach a pig to sing - it will frustrate you and annoy the pig."

I will say there are two Christian camps - those who believe in the "inerrancy" of scripture and those who believe that the Bible was written by human beings in a particular place and time and that it helps us to understand applications to our time and place if we study it from that perspective. For instance, for those of us in the latter camp, it has been well-established that Ephesians probably wasn't written by Paul at all but was written much later by an author who was trying to prove to the Romans that Christianity wasn't a threat (as the Romans had taken Christianity out of the protected Jewish fold and deemed it an "unlicensed" religion). Therefore the deutero-Pauline author incorporated what's known as the Roman household code which stratified society, free males at the top (of course) and everyone else in varying degrees of servitude. Just one example.

For those in the first camp, it is very similar to the OP's query - they "know" what they know and that's the end of it.

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Ed, if you do a search on my postings you'll know what I mean - this isn't the first time this subject has come up and I will not bicker. As I said in my post, this is not directly related to this thread so I'm not going any further.

Vicki

>For homosexuality to be fully accepted as moral behavior, the culture will have to restrict, discriminate against and eventually out law the practice of religion>

Uh, I really think there are some progressive Presbyterians, Methodists, Jews, and UUs who would take umbrage at this statement. Episcopalians and Buddhists, as someone mentioned. Not to mention the Metropolitan Church, which was founded (more or less) to support gay Christians and others who find denominational footdragging on the issue intolerable. Talk about painting with a broad brush!

BTW, not all Christians agree with the way scripture gets taken out of its context, twisted, and put back down again, either.

All of which is only indirectly related to this thread so I won't go any further.

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I've been involved with Eagle ceremonies in several different districts in our council, so I'm not sure if this comes from council or not. What has happened if the Eagle scout wants to do the presentation on the same night as a troop COH is that the troop COH is closed and the Eagle COH is opened. Then there are varying degrees of pomp, going from very simple to not. The folks involved have been adamant that the Eagle COH is separate from the troop COH.

The scout can have a completely separate "Eaglezilla" presentation at a venue of their choice lasting up to an hour or more. I've been to those, too. No comment.

Vicki

"Personally, a preacher with spiked colored hair, earrings and tattoos drinking a Starbucks is a turn off for me. For others, that kind of preacher draws them where a more traditional guys doesn't. "

And someday, posters will write "...where a more traditional person doesn't."

I know Pack's out there somewhere.

In terms of the subject, I do scouting because it's fun - ideals and such matter, but mainly cuz it's fun. As I tell my two sons, after you hit somewhere around 25, you've pretty much transcended cool.

Vicki

Basement you are completely missing my point. So be it. If we were truly sitting at a campfire we might be able to come to an understanding, but not here.

Peace, Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Adult choices have adult consequences - no argument there. You can cross a bridge without even knowing you've crossed it. My 18 year old son is working through some of those consequences now.

But, Basement, you are way too willing to jump to really damning conclusions about people on little or no evidence. And to post that someone should be excluded from a community that might help them to make better decisions in the future says more about you than it does about that individual.

Matthew, Peter, and Paul are names that come to mind. Thank heaven they got a chance or two, eh?

Vicki

You know I hadn't read this part of your post before, Basement, "no it isn't ok to mix her with children whose parents did a better job." Wow. I must have flashed right past it to the part where you talked about taxpayers with no basis for your assumptions. I take back the part about agreeing with any part of what you posted.

Hope your kids and/or grandkids never make any bad choices.

Can't speak with authority about any other belief systems, but Christians are all about welcoming those who have erred into the community, so are Taoists. As long as you're willing to try and come back to the path, come on in!

Vicki

Yep, rd, something about specks and logs:

OK, Basement, I'll rise to that bait - although I happen to agree with much of what you say (the way you say it is too dogmatic for my taste, but that's the way it goes) there is no evidence in this thread that this baby will end up a burden on the taxpayer. None. Her mother is obviously supporting her decision, yes there has obviously been some irresponsible bahavior, but you are way out of line. I know statistics are against her but people making assumptions like yours are probably making her life unnecessarily difficult. At least the young lady didn't get a convenient abortion - how conservative of her (using the original sense of the word - conserving a life).

Reminds me of when we went to McDonald's with our adopted son from Guatemala and somebody made some crack (which I was obviously supposed to overhear) about "people bringing brown kids into the US for us taxpayers to feed." Obviously that person didn't have all the facts either.

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Well, since Heather started this thread last September, it would be interesting if she popped back to let us know what happened.

But the baby was born in March, so the water is long under that particular bridge:

Reading the posts in this forum, I am so grateful for the professional staff in our council - particularly our Director of Advancement and Training and our Camping Properties Director. The program appears to be alive and well in our neck of the woods, anyway.

Bearing in mind nothing is perfect, of course.

Vicki

Setting age limits would be adding to the requirements. That one is pretty simple.

That said, I am a Personal Management MB counselor. That one in particular is more valuable if taken later if only because the state requires that high school students take a Personal Finance class to graduate. So it dovetails quite nicely with the curriculum. Also, it's helpful if the scout has a part time job so that he actually has some experience with being responsible for money. My favorite was the 16 year old who had his own business selling firewood cut from felled trees on his family farm. That young man had a firm grasp on reality and was a joy to work with!

Yeah, I've counseled 13 and 14 year olds, it's not as rewarding as working with the older scouts.

Vicki

Well, harrumph. I'm already missing scouting threads for your sexist claptrap. Have to get in come overtime before you go:

OK, so if I were to agree with your approach, Engineer, which I think it's obvious I don't, let's review what you posted, specifically, "All school personnel who observe a violation of this section."

No one has observed anything. So far we have hearsay and innuendo.

Vicki

In this format, we can only respond to what we've been told. The situation has changed from a hypothetical maybe with an anonymous tip that a boy "may have a problem with drugs" to a scout with known behavioral issues which can't be divulged on the internet (understandably) who is on the verge of getting kicked out of the troop.

I can guarantee you the scout you are now describing would not be allowed to go on a high adventure trip with the troop I now serve. Probably not the last troop I served either, but they were a bit more lax in that regard.

And, as Beavah notes, written behavior contracts don't mean anything to people who don't accept accountability for their actions. He's also correct in noting that a contract implies a quid pro quo. What you're describing is an imposition of conditions, which, as noted, won't work with folks who like to blame others for their issues.

Just a couple of thoughts, y'all are the folks on the scene and you'll do what you feel you need to do.

Vicki

I "USED" to - fill in the blank.

Yeah, there's a lot of us who can say "there but for the grace" - hence my unwillingness to jump to conclusions or adhere to black/white dichotomies.

Vicki

The woods picked clean? Interesting. We use chimneys and camp issued charcoal.

Vicki

Sounds like Beavah and I are on the same page (see my earlier post). I also liked Eamonn's post. Our society just leans way too far over to applying universal "solutions" to problems best handled on an individual level. This is one scout, against whom nothing involving drugs has been proven. As far as the thefts are concerned, well, anyone who lost a piece of jewelry on their dresser is going to blame him - he's a thief! And when they find it underneath the dresser, they're not going to take it back cuz that would be embarrassing. He made restitution, I believe you said? He may have learned from his mistake. Of course he's an at-risk kid, there's no denying that. I wouldn't necessarily "trust" him the way I would another scout, but this rush to judgement with dogs and police and new forms is a bit much.

Basementdweller has several good points - one of which is use the buddy system to your advantage in this situation. Because unless you employ drastic, trust-destroying measures, you don't stand a chance of finding anything. And realize you won't just be destroying the trust of this one scout.

Let's try to treat human beings with respect even when they're not adults - actually, especially when they're not adults.

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I'm a big fan of patrol/campsite cooking. It just seems like summer camp is more fun that way. Dining hall usually means an extra assembly, full uniform, hot and crowded, something always smells, while campsite cooking is more relaxed, outdoors with the breezes, good smells.

Plus all the other reasons folks here have already enumerated.

I should add - we go out of council every other year and it's almost always to a mess hall camp (our council camp is patrol/campsite). So my experience includes camps in NC, Arkansas, and Kentucky.

Vicki

There is a reason Western thought has issues with the Tao and, by definition, Taoists. Some things just cannot and should not be named. Yet humans persist in that effort. So be it. You can't explain Taoism.

As an aside - I believe many of the posts here do not reflect the OP's request for honest input.

Chapter 32

The Tao, eternally nameless

Its simplicity, although imperceptible

Cannot be treated by the world as subservient

If the sovereign can hold on to it

All will follow by themselves

Heaven and Earth, together in harmony

Will rain sweet dew

People will not need to force it; it will adjust by itself

In the beginning, there were names

Names came to exist everywhere

One should know when to stop

Knowing when to stop, thus avoiding danger

The existence of the Tao in the world

Is like streams in the valley into rivers and the ocean

Tao Te Ching: Annotated & Explained, translated by Derek Lin

It also talks about the waste that is pointless conflict. Kind of like "don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff."

Vicki

(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Yeah, Sherminator, I wondered about that one too - the OP has over 300 posts. Not too likely for a troll, eh? I just figured it was lovable, cuddly Ev...

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I hate "anonymous tips." Cowardly at best, malicious at worst.

Since this is a high adventure trek, you're going to be in fairly intimate quarters. I would do the normal shakedown process, keep an eye on the scout and call it a day. Depending on your relationship with the scout (I'm guessing you don't know him well since you're willing to believe this tipster) you might take him aside and tell him what happened. As Stosh points out, if this scout is guilty, he will be a master at deceiving adults, but at least he'll be on notice that either a) he's busted, or b) somebody he knows has it in for him. I wouldn't recommend this if the tipster had made himself known to you but you have nothing to protect here except possibly the reputation of the accused.

This is, of course, assuming that you haven't noticed behavior changes, different friends, isolation, etc., on the part of the scout. If you actually have a reason to believe something is going on beyond the word of a coward who obviously doesn't trust you, then that is a whole different story.

Vicki

OGE, I never fully understood the French Revolution until a few weeks ago when I visited Versailles. Standing there in the cobblestone plaza, looking slightly uphill from the bottom of the approach, blinded by the gold glinting from everywhere and the sheer size of the place, my first thought was, "this couldn't stand." The profligate use of resources combined with the blatant disregard for and oppression of the folks who supported the whole thing was obscene. I had just never appreciated the magnitude of it in a visceral way before that moment.

"Don't bite the hand that feeds you" indeed.

Vicki

viva Smith and Friedman!(This message has been edited by Vicki)