Venividi

>But try getting past a peer review board if your ideas aren't >within scientific orthodoxy even if your methodology is flawless. >Talk about groupthink... peer review would be great if ideas were >truly examined but they are in reality put to the orthodox >examination of the field wherein the theory lies.

I would think this would be seen as logical and sensible. Imagine taking a new proof developed for an algebraic problem for peer review by the geometry community. Or a biology theory for peer review by physics experts? What would be the point?

RM,

I think that FScouters point is that all those positions are filled - by you. As long as the job is getting done, it is unlikely that anyone else will volunteer. My advice is to stop doing them.

You may be able to force the issue by:

not having any fundraisers (hits the parents in the pocketbook)

cancelled campouts (no one made reservations)

Move the equipment responsibility to the (scout) quartermaster. If the scout is not getting needed support from an equipment chair, a few campouts without the proper equipment is a learning experience.

note: I had been in a similar situation, and finally approached it in this manner (i.e., I no longer did those other jobs). It was rough for a few months, but the troop became stronger as a result.

good luck , and hang in there. this is a situation calling for tough love, and you will have to resist doing everyone elses job.

Follow on to MarkS suggestion:

You can call Eureka and they will send replacement sliders. Remove the stitching at the end of the zipper, replace the slider, and re-sew the end. It wont help if the zipper teeth are damaged, but if the teeth are in good shape, your zipper will work again.

goodscout,

As you have let the other unit know about the issues with the scout, they can choose to accept him or not to accept him as a member. They can factor the scouts behavior, the skills and abilities of the SM/ASM's to handle a scout like this, and the abilities of the other scouts.

I can see where a unit, or council, or national could not require an evaluation. That is pretty private and confidential.

A friendly word to the SM of the troop he would transfer to would probably be appreciated.

a tangential question to this discussion: Does BSA allow cub scouts to wear their uniforms to school? In my area, many of the younger cub scouts wear their uniform to school on the days that they have den meetings (whether or not they meet right after school, or later when the den leaders get home from work). School is definately outside the sphere of scouting.

>>I still think the best path forward is to use what the boy has learned so far, to help him recognize for himself that he's not ready to advance?

Mark,

I am not trying to be brutal with my comments. Perhaps it is just me being dense. I just see more downside than upside in knowingly advancing a scout that has not met the requirements for advancement.

I agree with you that it is not good to "focus on the just the advancement method". Yes, the adult association method, outdoors method, etc. all can be used. Advancement isnt required. But isn't knowingly advancing a scout that has not met the requirements an undue focus on the advancement method? Why is it not the other methods that are being used to keep the scout in the troop?

I know it is difficult to sit across from a boy and tell him that therre is still more that he needs to do to catch the brass ring of second class, first class, ... but from experience, I have found that to do so does the boy more good than to knowingly ignore some of the requirements and provide a social promotion. I wouldn't agree that not giving an award that hasn't been earned should be considered a punishment.

Note: Like John, questions raised are only retorical. I am not looking for a response. Just using them to raise points for consideration. And again, hope this is not coming across as being brutal.

Do the work, take the money, dont count the scouts time as service to others.

Schedule separate troop service opportunities. There are needs that can be met by doing a service project everywhere one looks. As simple as picking up trash along the roadsides. Performing maintenance work for a church, VFW, or other non-profit.

two additional items for thought:

The rest of the scouts see what the "real" requirements are for the troop, which may result in one or more of the following: Other scouts putting in less effort, because they see that it is not valued by the adults - they approve advancement anyway. Other scouts needling/teasing the boy about him being a "special" case (out of sight of the adults). Loss of value of advancement, because it no longer means anything.

Depending on the patrol, the boy may get elected PL not based on popularity, but because being PL is seen as extra work in an environment where that extra work does not receive recognition. After all, a culture is being built where awards are not connected with accomplishments.

With a new troop, perhaps the average age of the scouts is lower than in more established troops. Especially if started with a group of crossover Webelos. It would not be unusual for younger scouts to have better attendance than the population at large. At least that is what I have observed.

That not withstanding, I do not see that as taking away from Brent's point on the importance of setting expectations. Good job, Brent.

To bring this back from adult to a boy holding two POR's, and as it is a Friday, which is a good day for esoteric discussions - What do you think the odds are that a scout at sometime, after having been an inactive life scout until, say 4 months before he turns 18 and reappears and wants get an Eagle, asks for 2 POR's so that in 3 calendar months he can meet the requirement for holding one or more POR's for 6 months? And then a heated discussion would take place here as to whether not approving such an arrangements would be adding to the requirements, because there is no rule against holding two POR's simultaneously?

Just want to liven up a Friday - :-)

Ask for help. If you attempt to do everything yourself, others will step back and let you.

MarkS,

Here are a couple of other benefits that I think that physical separation adds:

Patrol members dont "borrow" cooking utensils, etc. from another patrol because doing so is easier than looking for their own that a patrol member misplaced.

Patrol members are not distracted by activities, antics, conversations etc. of members of other patrols.

A mess left by one patrol is ignored because it is not obvious which patrol created it.

bigguy wrote: "the question he must ask is: is this a "project", or is the scout being lazy."

my anecdote that parallels this: A number of years ago when I was a new scoutmatster, I had a scouts Mom come to me to ask that I accept hours that her son had spent listening to senior citizens tell stories. This was part of a program that a senior citizen center had scheduled to increase interaction between community residents and the center's seniors.

After talking with the scout, I did sign off on it, though didn't feel good about it. The scout really was being what could be considered "lazy", though I think it would be better stated as not motiviated.

Its not just parents that arent willing to let scouts be on their own, it is scouters too. Eagledad describes a troop where adults escorted youth to all their summer camp activities. That would not happen without the support of scouters.

I had a similar observation this past February. I volunteered at a district klondike derby where half of the patrols competing had adults accompanying the patrols throughout the day. The klondike was held on about 100 acres of a local forest preserve. It would have been impossible to get lost for more than a few minutes before stumbling on some type of civilizaton. I brought this up at the next round table. There were scouters that have never considered letting their scouts be responsible for themselves without an adult present, even in the safe confines of an organized klondike.

post removed by author. Off topic for this thread.(This message has been edited by venividi)

You could always save the recipes that use beer for a cookout on a non-scout trip weekend. Call the other dutch oven enthusiasts that you know and invite them over for a DO gathering. Provide some hot charcoal and a place to set dutch ovens, let everyone bring ingredients for a favorite recipe (or new recipe that they want to try), and enjoy the comraderie while cooking, and then enjoy the tasty results.

We did this, and it turned into a frequent get together. What could be better than another meal from a dutch oven every month?

First Aid - a subject near and dear to my heart, and one that am opposed to a doing as a do it once and sign it off approach - for either FC rqmts or MB. Especially not both at the same time.

I promote FA being an annual troop program topic, with all participating, whether or not FC requirements and/or MB's are already complete.

It's not about checking off a requirement or earning a badge. It is about reviewing often enough that they can perform the skills when needed (i.e., in an emergency). That is no time to be looking things up in a book because the last time they used a FA skill was at a MB class at summer camp when they were 12.

Red cross requires annual refreshers to keep their certification. I think it wise for troops to review FA annually also.

duplicate post.

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I havent seen the program guide lately, since I now work with cub units, but I think I recall seeing 3 levels of program activities described in there (though I recognize that my memory may be faulty).

Nariticong,

A couple of ideas:

Reward the hard work that the boys are doing in integrating the special needs scout into their patrol. Praise them, let them know that what they are doing means more than the 'winning" of a first aid competition; that they are living to the scout law better than you could have envisioned.

Take aside the patrol leader (and the defacto leader, if it is not the same person), and counsel them on what to do in the event that someone running an event puts undue focus on the special needs scout - for instance, coach the boy to speak up and respectfully ask for a minute alone with him/her to explain the situation; that this scout is a member of their patrol, and therefore they as a patrol will be standing by their fellow scout, and helping him as he needs it in the spirit of the scout oath and law. Personnally, if I encountered some scouts that stood up for their fellow scout in such a manner, I would get choked up. First Aid is important, competitions are important, but doing the right thing trumps all.

Let me offer an analogy by looking at this at a different level. Our aim is to develop character, citizenship, and fitness. One could offer an arguement that our youth should develop in these areas for the "right" reasons; say for example, because it is good for them, it is good for society, etc., - rather than for an external reward; i.e. Star, Life, Eagle. We as scouters use advancement as a method to develop character, citizenship and fitness, because it works. Even though the motivation for the youth may be to receive an award and recognition, the character traits embodied in the scout oath and law have become internallized.

When food started accumulating in our troop's leftover bins, I asked the PLC to consider having the patrols take left over food home. They decided that the patrols grubmaster should be the one to take it home. After a while, we saw that the scouts shopping habits changed. Where once, every campout many patrols brought an orange drink mix that no one ever drank, that stopped when the parents got it back home. I suspect they tried it and found how awful it was. I also suspected that the parents were the ones that had decided to purchase it in the first place, as it never was on the scouts shopping list that they created at their patrol meetings.

Wasted food wont change immediately, but over time they learn. Until that new batch of Webelos crosses over and you get to watch them learn the same lessons.(This message has been edited by venividi)