Venividi

eolesen,

Agree that it is not ideal, but I can see how units get in such a postition when the choice is between having a unit/den/patrol or not having one if no one else is willing to volunteer.

Beavah,

Your post is really food for thought. My son was in band and cross country when he was in high school. Never sufficiently good at any of them to participate in the top band or elite runners, but he enjoyed participating in all of them. All had out of school MANDATORY participation in practices and performances. He really bonded with the cross country team members even though he always ran open class, and never ran for team points. He was part of the team. And you had to make a commitment to be part of the team. There is a feeling of comraderie, of feeling of being part of the group, when you know that your participation is valued enough, that you are important enough, that you affect the team if you are not there, so if you don't commit, dont show up.

Contrast that with "come when you are able" we will still be here. It is hugely different. I won't say better, just different. They teach different lessons. When I was scoutmaster and talking to parents of visiting Webelos, I would explain that scouting was better at teaching some lessons, and that other activities were better at teaching other lessons. I would specifically point out that I believed sports was better at developing teamwork and commitment for this very reason, and therefore promoted participation in both.

There is a difference in that the team sports were for a season rather than running all year, as does scouts. I do like the concept of a troop that values participation sufficiently to reward those that are loyal to their troop and patrol. Though I don't think that there is a large market for such a year round program, though I might be surprised. Perhaps a concept of different levels of troops like there are different levels in sports; i.e., like park district soccer, intramural soccer, high school conference soccer, club soccer, and traveling soccer. Differing levels of the same sport available for the different levels of interest and commitment.

I see BSA as positioning boy scouts as recreational level of outdoors adventure, equivalent to park district soccer. There seems to be a hole for an outdoor adventure equivalent level of club sports.

Just some random musings here, spawned by this thread, and the excellent question of "How Much Commitment is Enough". Thanks, adanecito for raising it.

Beavah, Lisabob,

I will be traveling to your great state of Michigan this weekend to participate in the Grand Rapids marathon. This is an unintended outcome of my son's former participation in cross country. I think that our children influence us as much or more than we influence them.

Or how about advising to first talk with the person responsible to find out where their head is at, before advising to go over their head? It would be a more polite thing to do.

If a scout A came up to any of us and told us that "Scout B did XXX", none of us would assume that, since a scout is trustworthy, it means Scout A has all his facts correct, and therefore expel scout B from the troop. Rather, we would talk to both Scout A and Scout B, or prehaps, even advise the SPL to intervene.

It would be courteous to first assume the best of others until we have experience that tells us otherwise.

Hotdesk,

I can relate. When I was an SM, there were many scouts that I was unable to get to think about scouting between meetings. Unless an adult was constantly telling them exactly what to do and then making many follow up calls. Your ability to do so is highly dependent on the level of support that you receive from the committee and parents. If your troop does not have a culture of self motivation among the scouts, and an does not have sufficient number of adults willing to mentor scouts in their positions, it might be better not to fill POR''s at all, because the SM cannot do it all.

Scoutingmom,

You brought back some memories - thanks for taking me back down memory lane. I recall many years ago that most cubs earned their rank badge shortly before B&G because that was when it was awarded. Its the same philosophy as the homework is due on Friday, so why work on it before Thursday night? And then it can be a chore.

Awarding the badge when earned by an individual scout has two benefits: the scout that earned it feels really good about himself - he did something and was then brought up in front of the entire pack, where the CM made a big deal out of recognizing his accomplishment. He will feel 10 feet tall. He then gets to wear that badge for the next month or two or three before everyone else in his den earns it. This provides incentive to some of the other members of the den. They WANT to work on requirements, perhaps even on their own, so they can get the recognition also. Boys are competitive by nature. Use that competitiveness to advantage.

Hats off to you, ScoutDadof5, for getting involved as a cub scout leader, and asking questions.

I suspect that there may also be a "that''s how we have always done it" momentum behind this as well, with leaders not knowing that that it is OK to award rank badges at the next pack meeting. I have found many people that have never read scouting reference material, let alone having a copy to consult. It is very typical for pack leaders to learn from the other leaders in the unit, resulting in continuation of such traditions.

I would not go so far as to call a unit dysfunctional based on one item like this. I don''t know of any unit that is able to follow the entire collection scouting literature 100% accurately. Every unit is somewhere on the continuum between really bad and 100% ideal, and it is in the interest of the boys for all adults to put effort into moving towards the ideal. Noone can work all problems/issues at once - this one sounds like a good improvement for you to champion.

Now that you have found that there is a reference supporting the awarding of badges when earned rather than saving them all to be distributed at the B&G, raise it as a topic at your next pack committee meeting. Bring your copy of the Cub Scout Leaders Handbook, with the page marked, so that during the committee discussion you can show the other committee members that it is in the book. Not in a "in your face" kind of a way, but in a "hey, I think it would be better to do it this way" kind of a way.

packsaddle,

I think that the public square is a great place for any citizen to stand up and voice their opinion. Say a prayer if one wants; promote whatever brand of religion that one believes in. Citizens can come and watch, participate, or keep walking on by.

I have recollections similar recollections to yours of a preacher that showed up on our campus several times a year.

For some reason, the scene in Life of Brian where the leaders of multiple splinter groups of the Judean peoples front are all speaking on the public square comes to mind.

A better question is why someone would WANT to have prayers made over the intercom in a public school. To do so is inconsiderate of others that have different beliefs.

Acco40,

I like your thoughts. It brings to mind that we here all frequently recite "...friendly, courteous, kind, ...".

FRIENDLY -He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.

COURTEOUS -He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.

KIND -He treats others as he wants to be treated.

REVERENT -He respects the beliefs of others.

(definitions abridged for brevity).

Sometimes it is worth reflecting on these, and then considering how are thoughts and actions should be affected by them.

John in KC,

Yes, I see your point. In the context of the overabundance of fundraisers for multiple organizations, that makes sense. Service projects, patrol activities, etc. may be more effective use of time in providing opportunities for participatory citizenship. And it removes the cut taken by the candy/gift wrap/... supplier.

We caught Amtrak in Illinois. Individuals packed food for lunch and breakfast. On the return run, our bus left Philmont with sufficient time for a stop at a grocery store in Raton before dropping us at the train station. Everyone bought deli sandwiches, muncies, beef jerky, crackers, cheese, etc. for the return train ride.

JohninKY,

I find it interesting that the solution to the problem of lack of participation in troop fundraisers is to drop the fundraisers and increase dues. I do think it is a pragmatic approach; and as you say, families would rather write a check than participate in fundraisers that dont benefit them personally. I dont know what the answer is; perhaps it is a social shift that isnt worth fighting, and time and attention is more effectively spent elsewhere.

Venividi

EagleinKY,

I think that the issue (problem?) that you describe of scouts and families being willing to participate in fundraisers that benefit the individual, but not those that benefit the troop as a whole is becoming more widespead in recent years. Less Citizenship than there used to be.

Reading your posts over the years, I gather that you have a well run troop and really strive to use the methods to achieve the aims of scouting. Which leads me to some interesting questions: Have you had SM conferences to discuss lack of participation in troop fundraisers with those scouts that dont participate; that exhibit a "whats in it for me" attitude? If you have, and a scout continues to demonstrate "whats in it for me", would you consider telling a scout that he is not ready for advancement when he comes to you for signoff on rank advancement to Star or Life?

Not trying here to say whether to do so or not is the best way; just want to raise a discussion on the potential of judicious use of the advancement method as an incentive to achieve the aim of citizenship.

Venividi

I echo the need for a backstory. It will help to understand the history of how this troop arrived at requiring sales of popcorn. For all anyone knows, sometime in the past the troop (or pack?) had experienced extreme lack of participation in fundraisers, this was they way that was agreed upon by those involved at the time on how to address the problem.

As far as dues and what is reasonable, it would be hard to make any type of comparison between dues charged by different troops without knowing total budget and how that budget is funded.

Some troops split all campout costs among those attending. Some troops pay for campout costs, with scouts paying for patrol food. Some troops pay for driver''s gas out of troop funds. In some troops gas is not reimbursed. Some troops establish an equipment fund to replace equipment when needed. Some troops dont consider the cost of replacement equipment until something needs to be replaced.

So all-in-all, it depends.

ItsMe,

thanks for sharing the update. Good work with the new scouts. Given the work that you have been doing with the new scouts, I am assuming that the troop guide is getting similar coaching. If you are having the problems with him that you describe, as an aside to the topic, I want to remind you that, per recent statements, you either need to remove him or else have to promote him.

Venividi

Expect resistance from scouts at first. Perhaps for several months. Some may even drop out. Because to them, a change from troop meal planning and cooking with ASM doing the shopping, IS more work for them. The challenge is how to change, and how to counter the resistance that will be received from both scouts and parents. Because this is really about changing culture. About setting and communicating new expectations, and then being tested by the scouts as to whether the new expectations are real. And listening to complaints from parents about the problems they had with taking their son to the store so he could grocery shop. And the "I told you so''s" from parents when things don''t go smoothly the first month. Or the second.

Adults have to buy in to wanting to change, or it wont happen because culture change is not easy. But in the long run you are better off, because once the culture starts to shift, it becomes less work, because the scouts start to do what they are supposed to do.

Similar problems are having a committee that doesn''t provide the logistical support they are supposed to, leaving SM/ASM''s to do all the work. In the short run, it is easier to do it yourself, but what is really happening is that people are being trained that they dont have to.

I actually like the idea. PLC comes up with a menu of, say for example, beef stew for dinner. Patrol A makes a traditional stew with beef, carrots, celery, onions, and has bisquits baked in a dutch oven; Patrol B makes the same, with the addition of turnips & rutebagas, and cooks the bisquits as dumplings in the stew. Patrol C makes a goulash style stew by including paprika.

OGO indicates that this is for the next campout, and does not imply that it is for all future campouts.

As an aside, our troop was a believer in patrol cooking type of summer camp. Each patrol was given Exactly the same ingredients for every meal. A week of this really improved the patrol''s cooking skills, and patrols were then more confident in selecting more complicated meals during the rest of the year. A great benefit, even though the patrol did not plan the menu at summer camp.

good question, and probably lots of ways to look at it. I can think of a couple:

People are afraid of being wrong. I have noticed this with every SPL - having run on a platform of "I am going to make meetings more fun", and then once elected, typically ask "OK, what do you guys want to do" rather than making his own proposals.

What is "logical" depends on perspective. It is wise to consider additional perspectives beyond ones own, and this forum is a good place to ask for them.

I think questioning things is a good thing, and apparently so do you, as you posed the question.

Our troop would pay 1/2 or more for training. Payment was made in the form of credits towards outings fees. Leaders paid out of pocket and submitted receipts. The troop credited his/her scout account, which could be used for payments for weekend campouts or summer camp.

There are times that volunteers need to be let go. It may very well be time for this Mom to be replaced as a den leader - that is a call that will need to be made by the CM with support of CC, CO, and others. A common mistake in such situations is to do nothing. I applaud your husband for not allowing this to continue. Next step is to identify which of the other parents appears the temperment, interest, and character to make a good den leader, and start the recruiting process. You may be correct that this kid may benefit scouts, but unless he can be controlled, it is not wise to lose the many for the one (Yes, I realize that is opposite the parable of the shepherd leaving the flock to look for the lost sheep). That is where the "know your resources" comes in. If mom can be convinced to control her son as a condition to stay, or if you have access to other willing adults or a very good den chief, then you may be successful.

If you have a unit commissioner, engage him or her. A UC, if you have one, can helping guide through the process of removing a volunteer, as he/she should be able to be objective.

I would like to add a cautionary note to John in KC''s suggestion of PL''s calling parents. From personal experience, I caution to not underestimate the ability of some parents to be VERY unreasonable. There are some parents that you will absolutely will not want to have a scout call, and you may not know in advance which ones will behave rudely to a scout on the phone. Our one and only experience at having an SPL call a parent in a situation revealed a personality in a parent that I would not have imagined was possible.

Gern -

A question: Did the PL''s have the duty roster posted so that all could see that all scouts had to take their turn at cooking, cleanup, etc? It isn''t obvious from your post if this had been done or not. A posted duty roster at Summer Camp is a useful because scouts can see when it is there turn, and the PL is reminding the scouts it it their turn. All can see when their turn is coming up.

Personally, I can only recall one scout that would not take direction from other scouts. I suspected, but never confirmed, that the scout''s mother had told him that he didnt need to.

Itsme,

Good observation. I have had disagreements with my own spouse about what are children are capable of.

I see another scouting parallel in the statement from the National web site that is frequently quoted here that implies that scouts if a scout does not fulfill the duties of his POR, it is the adults fault. Society seems to be moving towards fewer expectations of the abilities of youth, rather than the other way.

ASM59,

Suggest that you need to make the call balancing the needs of scouting in your area, your current skills, and what you like to do. From observation of your participation here, I think that you could become a top notch unit commissioner. You know the program, are reasonable, and you know what kind of support you would have liked to have received from a unit commissioner. I hope you give that a try. (I see you are from Illinois - I hope you are in 3 fires council).

insanescouter,

I like your thoughts for pondering. As an avid skier I particularly enjoyed the skiing scenario. It got me to pondering what it would be like in todays environment, and think it would go something like this:

I once saw a lad skiing, well, mostly just hanging out at the base lodge, and occasionally going out onto the slope where he slowly made his way down the slope, stopping here and there, appearing to collect something. Occasionally he bumped into others, but mostly he avoided them. He stepped into the woods whenever it looked like someone was looking for him.

I saw another lad about the same age also skiing. He skied with the confidence that comes from dedication and hard work over time. He would often stop and give impromptu pointers to younger skiers that were trying hard to improve their skiing. Once I even saw him stop to help a fallen skier, giving aid until the ski patrol arrived, and then staying to help as much as he could. While this was going on, I saw the first skier give a wide berth to avoid the situation, and obviously pretending not to notice.

Later, I saw both at what was obviously a ski club meeting. I stopped and watched as the club president made an announcement about the club's outstanding skier. He called up the first skier, and gave him a trophy. After the presentation, the second skier approached the first skier and asked him how he could possibly had been named the club's outstanding skier, since he rarely went on the club's trips, rarely skied when he did, avoided helping other club members, or anyone else for that matter. The first skier looked him strait in the eye and said "I stopped at all the checkpoints spread over the mountain, and collected the tokens. Sure, the club rules state that we are to be always willing and able to help others in need on the mountain, and that we have to spend time as an officer of the club, but actually doing those things takes time away from collecting the tokens. Experience has shown that those rules are meaningless anyway. When it comes right down to it, while they say that participating and helping are important, they really only care about collecting the tokens. So while you were occupied with improving your skiing skills and helping those other people out on the slopes, I spent my time collecting the tokens, and that is why I, and not you, received this award."

Something to ponder...