Venividi

Not sure that MB quality matters to anyone other than the counsellor. Ideally, MB's are about going out in the field and doing stuff. Sends scout off to do more interesting stuff, and do some self study. Scouts often dont want to read if they dont have to. Perhaps MB pamphlets should follow the lead of the Boy Scout Handbook, and increase the ratio of pictures to words.

Advancement is often an adult thing. I like boys that are motivated by fun - hey are the "Hey guys, lets lash together a bridge! It'll be fun!" Compare that with "Hey guys, lets lash together a bridge. It'll satisfy a requirement."

Which one of these approaches teaches leadership? Which one would you rather follow? Somnetimes the best thing for a boy is to go find something different to do that holds more interest for him. If he is more interested in Marching Band (or theater, or madrigal singers, or fgootball, or ...) he will be more likely to develop the great character and citizenship there than he will if he is pushed to get advancement checkmarks in scouting. Not all boys are motivated by or interested in the same thing. Encourage boys to follow thier interests (legal and moral of course), and explain to parents that an award without an appropriate level of passion behind has no benefit in the long run.

Had one once. He asked to be bugler. But once he had the position, no one could convince him to actually play. My suspicion was that he was either afraid of being teased, or he was unwilling to commit the time to learn and practice the calls. I think probably the later.

I echo quazse's recommendation of looking at what your troop's adult leadership is.

If the vision is rank advancement, then keeping Eagle scouts from holding POR's makes sense, as the troop has achieved its aim of making Eagle scouts.

If the vision is development of leadership skills, then the troop would allow all eligible scouts to hold any position which will help him develop and improve leadership skills, and even encourage the best to run,.

If the vision is a delivering a great outdoors program, then the troop would encourage those that have demonstrated the enthusiasm, skills, and ability to run for SPL, regardless of their rank.

You can see where this is going - define first your vision (guided by the aims of scouting), and then determine how you will implement the methods to help you achieve the vision.

Don't forget that the sense of justice of young people is strong. The other scouts in the troop will see the hypocracy of adults talking about the importance of living according to the scout oath and law, and then giving out an award (that is in part based on living to the scout oath and law) to the scouts in the troop that demonstrate it the least.

Only the most brave and brazen will call you on it. The remainder will simply silently observe.

Wow, Scoutfish. I hope that you are trying to be sarcastic, because I have never seen anyone hold scouts to the levels that you are describing (or even expect it). More often I see the opposite - scouts that dont know first aid skills. Scouts that get two merit badges in a day by sitting in a merit badge university.

Caring adults are mentors that help scouts to achieve more than otherwise would have on their own. To encourage them to do just that little bit more. To advise them to strive for their best, rather than to accept mediocrity.

I like the quote from Robert Browning: Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?

Moxieman,

Have you considered creating your own powerpoint presentation based on the hazardous weather training sylabus? That provides you with the ability to present the material in a manner that matches your style.

How about "We wish we were Bobwhites!"

The format required in order to enable scouts to complete merit badges at camporees, merit badge universities, etc. (i.e., large group settings), simply does not line up with what BSA states as the value of the MB program. It does expose the scouts to a topic that they might otherwise not have been exposed to, but: There is too much material to cover in that short of a time. Too much "I'll demonstrate, you copy and you're complete". Too many "students" for one person or to test all those requirements individually, let alone serve as a mentor. Too much instructor led for a boy to experience initiative, no need for a boy to exerience initiative nor to overcome the fear of telephoning an adult that he does not know.

According to the Merit Badge Counselor Instructor's guide

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/18-125.pdf

- The merit badge itself is a simple embroidered patch, but the intangible end result of earning it is that the Scout gains self-confidence from overcoming obstacles to achieve a goal.

- the real opportunity for a counselor lies in coachinghelping Scouts over the different hurdles of the requirements and helping make them aware of the deeper aspects of the subject from their knowledge and experience

- Merit badge counselors provide an excellent means for a Scout to grow through his exposure to outstanding adults who serve as examples and mentors to them. The opportunity to deal with business leaders, trained specialists, and experienced hobbyists while in the pursuit of a merit badge offers the Scout a chance for personal growth and possibly a life-altering experience.

- the real opportunity for a counselor lies in coachinghelping Scouts over the different hurdles of the requirements and helping make them aware of the deeper aspects of the subject from their knowledge and experience

- Group instruction is acceptable, but each Scout must be tested and passed individually.

I have not seen any MB university or camporee offered MB be able to provide for these things.

I have been asked to teach a MB in group settings at troop meetings and MB universities. I have turned them down, because when comparing the results with what BSA states are the benefits of using counselors, I conclude that counseling in a group setting is a waste of both my time and the boys' time. Other people consider the same information and arrive at the opposite conclusion, so consider what you value, and decide accordingly.(This message has been edited by venividi)

Hi macmom,

Welcome to the forum

Ultimately the decision of which merit badges to take at what time and with which counselor is between your son and his scoutmaster. However, you can guide and advise him based on what you want your want your son to get out of his time in scouting. You have to ask yourself if you want your son to get requirements out of the way as quickly as possible, or if you want him to really learn the skills.

Because "quantity" of badges in a short amount of time comes at the expense of "quality". More than once I have heard boys laughing about how easy Personal Management or Citizenship MB's were at summer camp. However, they got short changed actually learning important life skills.

Keep in mind that advancement is a method, not an aim. It is a tool that can be used to incent boys to learn more and accomplsh more than they otherwise might have. You might want to read through BSA's training module for MB counselors, which gives an explanation of the benefits that boys receive when they work directly with a caring adult in their local comunity. Here is the link: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/18-125.pdf

Good luck to you and your son.

There is a challenge with youth leadership when new scout patrols continue on, and a troop ends up composed of mostly age based patrols.

When learning leadership, the scouts need an environment that fosters success. Individuals are willing to be led by someone that they look up to, have respect for, and have skills that are greater than their own. This exists in mixed age patrols, where older scouts have learned and practiced skills, and the other scouts recognize this and are willing to follow their lead. They want to be like him someday.

With same aged patrols, scouts don't have the same willingness to be led by the patrol leader, (even though they elected him), because the leader likely doesn't know any more than they do.

Another vote here not to discount the quiet guy. Willingness to learn, enthusiasm, desire to improve, and willingness to step outside his comfort zone can result in a great cubmaster.

It brings back memories of my first pack meeting as cub master. After the meeting, my wife told me that the woman she was sitting next to said to her "Where did they find this guy?". In a not so complimentary tone. I did get better as soon as I figured out that the boys had more fun the more they were involved, so each month I gave each den responsibility for a skit, song, run-on, or opening.

Help the quiet guy get started by asking him to lead a silly song at the next pack meeting, and to organize a hike next month.

Perhaps an email response something like:

"I understand your concern. Moving from a cub scout pack to a boy scout troop is both exciting and scary. What we have found is that our troop is a place where boys make new friends and learn through both successes and failures. We have a dedcated group of leaders, including both older scouts and adults, that have seen this before, and our experience is that the boys are able to work these things out, and in short order are very comfortable with the selections that they have made."

"...being the BEST in the Council or giving your Scouts the opportunity to really lead their patrols and troop?"

I am having trouble understanding why these would be considered to be mutually exclusive.(This message has been edited by venividi)

Advancement committees are composed of volunteers. They, like most of us that volunteer, use their volunteer hours in a manner that they think is most productive. Vetting the huge list of MB counselors to determine proficiency is probably not the best use of time unless there happens to be a large number volunteers on the advancement committee.

It is still up to the scoutmaster to provide scouts with the name of the counselor that he/she wants the scout to use.

Basement,

I also think you are doing the right thing in addressing the issue.

If this (i.e. this forum) were my unit, I would be giving a scoutmasters minute on civility and kindness, as some of the responses to you have not been in keeping with the scout spirit that we work hard to instill in our scouts.

"I've asked 4 of my den parents face to face...... They all said no for their own different reasons. So after that I just gave up asking.

hrrnch,

Dont give up asking. It will likely take multiple face to face requests before someone will agree to become a leader. In the meantime, start to change how things get done in the pack and den, with your chief goal being to make sure that the next leader will have all the help that he/she needs.

Success feeds on success. Packs that have a lot of adult involvment are that way because a) the adults are having fun, b) the work load is spread across a large group of people, c) the parents currently helping pull in their friends to help, and d) continuous recruitment is being done because it is recognized that leadership constantly turns over in cub packs.

In packs that are struggling to get enough adult help, most people will not volunteeer, because they see that there is never enough help, and dont want to be left holding the bag. It is difficult to move a pack from this culture to a culture where all parents help out, so

you may have reached a point where some tough love is called for.

Schedule a meeting of all parents of your den.

1) Review the situation and explain that going forward your den will be run as a team effort. (Parents are aware of the situation, which is why no one wants to take over as den leader.)

2) In advance of the meeting, prepare a schedule listing all den meetings, field trips, and other activities. Ask parents to sign up for two. They are the organizers for those meetings / events. If some (or all) parents do not sign up, assign them to open spots. The parents then have a choice - accept the commitment or drop their son from the den.

3) Make phone calls to any family that did not attend the meeting. Tell them the meetings/events that they have been assigned. If they balk, let them know that their only other option is to find another pack for their son.

Many people are glad to help once they know that they are not expected to take over the den.

Others will have excuses/reasons why they cannot help, some good, some not. There is something that everyone can do, regardless of the reason/excuse.

Expect some to make the decision to drop. Those that remain will have more fun. That includes not only the scouts, but also the parents, who are now more engaged.

I agree with Calico when he stated that his assessment was a bit harsh. Adults have a learning curve also. Many/most adults have not had an experience where they had to stand up to such egrarious behaviour. Given the desire to keep from making a bad situation worse, and to make accomodations to help a single boy that really desparately needs the type of role models that scouting can provide, bad behaviour is tollerated until it passes a tipping point.

Basement, after this situation is dealt with, it can become an event that strengthens the adult leadership by helping you all to learn to candidly communicate with each other and with scouts and their parents, and to develop a common vision to guide your unit in the future.

"When public servants can earn like a stock broker or private professional you'll achieve the kind of parity you suggest"

Interesting comparison using stock broker, as it highlights a larger differences between public and private than just pay.

Stock brokers lost their jobs when technology made on-line trading possible. Customers moved to self service or discount brokerages, and stock broker jobs were eliminated. They have a higher risk of losing their jobs.

Stock broker (and its relative, investment advisor) is the ultimate pay-for-performance job. Those that preform well get paid very well. Those that dont perform well make very little money. The average pay for brokers is very low; the relatively few very highly compensated few are more than balanced by those that enter the profession and don't succeed.

In my area, the public unions I am aware of actively oppose pay for performance.

Promises have to be backed by the ability to keep them. Else, what we think are promises are not.

Promises also seem to be dependant on who the promise is made to, and the perspective of the parties, as was made apparent by our local school board. At their January board meeting, the board president took time to comment on Illinois financial mess. He made a statement that the state had made promises to state workers and teachers (regarding pensions and medical benefits), and that the state had an obligation to keep their promises.

At the February board meeting, the board voted to raise the tax cap. After promising 4 years prior that they would not do so when the community approved a building referendum.

A bit ironic - school board believes that promises made by other govt bodies must be kept no matter the circumstances, but promises made by themselves, those are OK to reneg on when conditions change.

Packsaddle,

I agree with you that moving to a defined contribution plan does nothing to reduce exisiting obligations.

I'm not sure about the rest of your post. Are you proposing public sector jobs couldn't be structured to carry a pay scale and benefits package that is comperable to those in the private sector? But that if it could, that competent people will leave those jobs? Is that what you are seeing in private sector employment in your area, i.e., have private sector employees that have been moved to defined contribution plans left, with only incompetent morons staying?

It would be great if all employees around the world could retire at 55 or 60, live to 100, and be given a pension indexed to inflation and unlimited health care during those years. Those costs have to be paid for, either through higher prices of products and services or through transfer payments from taxpayers. I have yet to meet the person who does not complain about high taxes; and who, when faced with a purchase decision between two equivalent products, chooses the higher priced one.

"So what we're seein' is that shift, eh? As an aging populace, we're gradually less willing to contribute to education on average."

I think thats only part of it. I think another, perhaps larger part, is that the chickens are coming home to roost. In the past, to avoid raising taxes while increasing services, elected gov't officials would agree to increasing future benefits, shifting costs to some undetermined point in the future. Those costs could be masked somewhat by assuming a high rate of return on pension fund investments. And everyone was happy. Citizens didnt really want to know the details, preferring to assume that elected officials were handling it. And then a few events occured that pulled back the curtain:

Govt bodies had been providing incentives to public workers to entice them to retire early, helping them stay within current budgets by the reduced salaries received by the new employees that replaced long term employees. (In our area, teachers and school administrators are given additional salary increases for up to 4 years when they announce plans to retire; in the Chicago suburban area, it is not unusual to see teachers earning $100K when they retire; administrators are substantially more than that). This moves people into the pension system earlier than they otherwise would have, and with a higher pension amount than they otherwise would have received. They are also receiving retiree medical coverage for a longer period of time.

Life expectancy has increased. Resulting in pensions being paid out for a longer period of time. In our state, state pensions are indexed to inflation, so they grow for a longer period of time also.

The recession resulted in lower tax revenue coming in, and lower returns on pension fund assets, making pension funds underfunded to an even greater degree.

Medical costs have increased faster than inflation, increasing the cost of retiree health care benefits that government bodies are obligated to pay.

Companies in the private sector that provided defined benefit pensions found that made them non-competitive with companies that did not provide defined pensions. Very few companies offer defined benefit pensions any more, and have moved employees to defined contribution programs. As more middle class people feel the effects of no longer receiving retirement benefits, and thus having to pay more out of their own pockets, they question why they have to pay for state employee retiree benefits that are so much better than their own. i.e. there is now a greater disparity between their retiree benefits and public worker retire benefits.

Regardless of the cause, at some point the pension and health care obligations owed to retirees will become unsustainable. Governments will need to move to defined contribution plans similar to those in the private sector.

Back when I was a SM, our troop did not attend MB universities. They were around, but we did not promote or advertise them.

I seriously doubt that a scout would have asked to attend a MB university; if one had, I suspect it would have been because his parents found out about the clinic and were interested in pushing their son to complete advancement requirements and saw this as an easy way to knock out a couple of badges quickly.

If I were approached, I would handle it something like this:

Scout: I heard about a MB University. I would like to go.

SM: What MB's would you like to take?

Scout: I would like to take Citizenship in the Community and First Aid.

SM: Both of those are important topics. They really cant be done correctly in a half day, even if they give you pre-requisites to complete ahead of time. Whenever a scout in our troop wants to tackle Citizenship in the Community, we have him talk to Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson is the vice-chairman of the county board. He had a son in our troop a few years ago, and he does a very good job with this Merit Badge. Would you like to meet with him?

Scout: That takes so long. If I go to MB University, I can get both Citizenship and First Aid done in the same day.

SM: Perhaps other troops do merit badges that way, but at our troop, we take pride in doing things right. For important MB's like these, we use MB counselors that we know do things right. Why don't you go talk to Ryan? Ryan just earned Eagle. He met with Mr. Johnson for Citizenship in the World, and told me that Mr. Johnson taught him some things that he hadn't learned in school. I think you will too.

With respect to going over with parents and committee members, this has to be an ongoing communication with them, focusing on the aims of scouting (character, citizenship, and fitness). Have frequent discussions of how the program you are running supports the aims. Make them aware of the benefits of working with individual MB couselors rather than attending MB universities, and relate those benefits to the aims. You will likely still have some parents that dont (or refuse) to understand. Dont let them insist that the program be run counter to your vision.

Bufalo,

Any more detail on the flashlight war? Just enough detail for someone to take back and propose to their PLC?

thanks

If your troop's chartering organization is a church, check for a congregation of that denomination in that area. They may let you sleep in their basement or fellowship hall (if they have one).