bnelon44

They already were tested and passed, that is what the signature in the book means. You wouldn't ask your sons to retake a final if you found out that they don't remember where Columbus landed in the new world, why require a Scout to retake a proficiency test at a board of review? He already was tested and he passed the test. If you think that the Scoutmaster isn't testing your Scouts correctly, then you need to bring that up with the Scoutmaster, it isn't the Scout's fault and you don't punish the Scout by retesting them.

Advancement is not certification. It never was intended as such. Certifications are obtained and have to then be renewed on a regular basis. Renew or you lose it. That has never been required for ranks or merit badges. People assume the ranks and merit badges mean a lot more than they actually do or were ever intended on meaning. If you want your Scouts certified in something, then get them certified and have them renew their certifications when they expire, but don't try to cram it in the advancement program where it doesn't belong. And yes, ideally, everyone going on a backpac

> PS: wasn't the First Aid MB a requirement for First Class back in the late 70's/early 80's? So was Citizenship in the Community. Good citizenship is an aim of Scouting

Let's see how STEM works out, it is suppose to add a layer of proficiency and retention over and above merit badges.

JoeBob, You said, "But the physical skills that make a Boy Scout a Boy Scout, I am going to retest, re-teach, and reinforce. If national thinks that is bad, I look forward to being fired!" Rest assured that national doesn't think it is bad. Retesting is just not part of advancement. Remember, advancement should not be the entire program of any one troop. I think people feel that if it isn't part of advancement it isn't part of the program. Remember advancement is only one of eight methods in Boy Scouting.

Eagle92, I think we've discussed this before but the trouble with the word "mastery" is that it is very subjective and has led to "Scoutmaster gatekeeper abuse" in the past. That is why words like "demonstrate", "explain", "plan", "participate" and "show" are used. Just a note on the Guide to Advancement and it's place in the literature of Scouting. There are two advancement definitive sources for Boy Scout advancement, all other books and internet pages are supplemental as far as Boy Scout advancement is concerned. Guide to Advancement - BSA definitive source for advancement

Guy there apparently has been a lot of discussion (and still is) of combining Citizenship in the Community with Citizenship in the Nation. So far the decision has been to keep them separate. I know the boys would love to have them combined. And you are right that there is a lot of school work in those badges. The hardest part of any of the citizenship badges for our boys is where they have to visit someplace and talk about it. That seems to always be the final requirement completed. I have noticed over the years that whomever is writing the badges has included alternatives using the Inte

B-P didn't like the BSA's take on advancement. Even when the BSA grew much faster than his Scouting Association and stayed the much larger organization. Even when the Eagle award out-shown every other Scouting award in the world. Again, since we are talking about the Eagle award and not some award from some other organization, what are the aims of the BSA? The Eagle Scout rank should and does represent the fulfillment of those. The BSA is not just another camping club and the Eagle Award is not just a camping/outdoors award. (This message has been edited by bnelon44)

What are the aims of Scouting?

I think what you guys want isn't the Eagle Scout award (which always had a component of citizenship in it) but an ultimate outdoorsman award. We have that already and people are not earning it. Why? see: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Youth/Awards/NOA.aspx(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Ummmm.... so units need to keep or submit incident reports for illness and near misses? 1) That would have to somehow get into the specific training 2) It won't happen, sorry, the vast majority of units won't do it. I know it would be great information to compile to see if we should modify training, but IMHO it simply won't happen.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Richard, Of course we live and breath for each revision of the GTSS ;-) There use to be a "changes" section which was convenient to review when updates came out. What happened to that? Nevermind... I see the update section now. (This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Basementdweller, Your absolutely right. Hopefully troops have a much larger program than just relying on advancement to tell them what to do every month.

jblake47, your testing weekend would definitely be adding a requirement to the Eagle rank, which, of course is not allowed (never was.) But it has merit. Why don't you suggest it to the National Advancement Team?

My comment was in the context of obtaining a rank or a merit badge. What a Scoutmaster or unit may want to teach a Scout outside of advancement is up to them. In a national program the advancement requirements need to be the same nationally so a Life Scout in New York is not penalized because his Scoutmaster happens to think he needs to memorize the US Constitution and be able to recite it repeatedly over a 12 month period, to become Eagle while a Scoutmaster in California doesn't. This becomes a very large issue when at 17.5 years of age the California Life Scout's family move him to New Y

For those who may have missed the 1st slide in the presentations: Please provide suggestions for improvement to advancement.team@scouting.org no later than Feb. 28, 2013.

> I wonder where the definition of unit leader is located. Because Varsity Teams use Boy Scout requirements for ranks to 1st class and both Varsity and Venturing use the requirements beyond 1st class. All common Scouting terms are in the "Language of Scouting." It use to be a hard copy book, now it is available on the Internet: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/LOS/All.aspx It has been around for decades as a hard copy book. I remember getting a copy when I first started as an adult leader. definition: unit leader: The adult leader of a unit is a Cubmaste

> Blue cards only? Unnecessary change and bureaucratic. It wasn't a change. Blue cards were always the only recognized merit badge application for merit badges. And it really is necessary to have one official form that can be completed and copies retained by the interested parties that a unit in New York can use and when the Scout moves to Arizona, the units and council in AZ will accept. It is always easier to make up your own in house unit form for tracking and then do it your own way, but there is no guarantee any other unit would accept it. That is the reason for standardi

Ken and those who want to rant, I'm not sure what suggestions you would have and I don't know how any of what you wrote relates to the fact that the National Advancement Team is responding to the demands of the field for better training materials, which I think is what the subject of this thread is. But you know, if you have constructive input to the program there are ways to get it to those that create program and it isn't a mysterious "national." It is a whole bunch of volunteers, like you, and those you met at PTC. Probably the most direct way is to send a note to progra

> Just one question about data flow: Why isn't this sort of thing on scouting.org first? The definative source is not scouting.org it is the 2013 Boy Scout Requirements Book and that is in the Scout Shops this week.

Read what it says about using workbooks. They are an optional aid that the merit badge counselor can use to help the Scouts learn. However the requirements don't change. If it says, demonstrate, the Scout demonstrates, he doesn't fill out a workbook and expect to be signed off on a requirement. His Mom may think that is how it works, but that's not how it works. Anyway, read the speaker's notes, it doesn't say that the workbook replaces the requirements, just the opposite.

I didn't write any of it. I am just reporting they are available. There have been enough changes from the old training that trainers should review these presentations and plan on utilizing them.

The new Boy Scout Requirements book is out and the changes are posted here: http://usscouts.org/advance/changes/advchanges13.asp

"However, because of the incidence of complaints to the national Advancement Team that Scouts are receiving signed blue cards from merit badge experiences where they did not actually and personally complete all the requirements, the national Advancement Committee is considering a proposal to provide unit leaders a method of recourse, when it is clear and obvious that requirements were not fulfilled as written." This is because of so many complaints from Scoutmasters that a Scout attended a summer camp program and they know the Scout did not do a requirement but the MBC signed the Scou

John, I am not sure what you are commenting on. If it is the slide deck for MB Counselor training, read the speaker's notes: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/advancement/Merit_Badge_Counselor/The_Essentials_Presenters_Notes.pdf If it is the video, then watch the video before commenting. And, as always, a Scout (and Scouter) should be following the Scout Law and be courteous at all times.