Twocubdad

You can argue the point if you like, but where do you think Mazucca's head is when he says you can teach character with aerospace and computers or that we need to adapt the program to suit families who don't trust sending their son's into the woods with "strangers" for the weekend, or that camping isn't a big deal to a lot of boys. If the prize is character development, the methods are subservient to the mission. That includes the outdoor program and patrol method. I don't agree with it, but I promise you these guys are reading the demographic tea leaves and thinking to themselves that the only problem with the '74 Urban Scouting program was that it was ahead of his time. But wasn't that the point of this thread about page three?

I'm not recommending it, just noting that if our mission is to teach ethical decision making to young people by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law, you can do that on school nights, in hotels or while driving an ATV. If the mission statement is our goal, Mazucca's whatever-it-takes approach to recruitment becomes an effective means to that end.

Then you guys need to lobby to change the mission statement.

Four gallons is a whole lot. I'm guessing that's a number a logistics guy would use for calculating the total amount of water needed. Four gallons a day is a quart per hour all day long. That's probably the top-end for an adult working in the heat. I've read that your body can only process about a cup of water every 15 minutes, which would make a quart an hour the max. Also remember we're talking total fluid intake. The four slushies and six cokes count. But we need to remember we're not dealing with adults. Average age of the boys in my troop is just over 13. I've got a bunch of kids who don't weigh 100 pounds -- one tips the scale at 60 pounds. If we push four gallons of water through him, he's going to have problems with loss of electrolytes. Trust me on this, my then 12-year-old son fell out on the Presidential Death March at the last jambo due to low sodium. I would stick with the jamboree recommendations. As to Lisa's you-can't-make-them-drink questions. I think we do what we normally do -- educate, motivate, supervise, lecture, bribe, blackmail, threaten, etc., etc. We dealt with similar conditions at summer camp last week (I don't know why they think Jamboree is the hottest place on earth). We had the boys drink at least one Nalgene of water while we were with them. They were hydrated when they left camp. This is why we start preaching to the Webelos before they ever join the troop about taking care of themselves and personal responsibility.

According to the Jamboree Medical Guide: 4-6 quarts of water/sports drink per day is recommended during high heat and humidity. Drink 4-6 oz every 15-20 minutes during mild to moderate exertion. About half of what you drink should be a sports drink to avoid over-hydration and loss of sodium. Most commercial sports drinks can be diluted 50% for the ideal electrolytes and carbohydrate balance.

Why is this going through national? Your council should be handling this. Either way, complete the new application and attach a copy of the old app, the letter you got and the cancelled check along with a note explaining that it has all been paid for. Don't be too quick to judge awards earned by other. St. George I don't know about, but the requirements of some religious emblems give broad descretion to the local churches. Our CO considers Scouting to be a ministry of the church. Consequently, the church has awarded adult religious emblems to non-church members who have served the church exclusively through scouting.

Thanks! That's the point of reference I'm looking for.

Not arguing, Acco. I think you hit the nail on the head, in fact. What I'm looking for is an idea of what this really means. Right now, outside it is 92 degrees, 36% humidity, bright sunshine. The regular, NWS head index is 91. I understand what that means and can walk outside and experience it. What would the WBGT be? How does this compare with a WBGT of 90 degrees?

Right, got all that. But my real question is when the jambo guidelines say they will "black flag" activities at 90F WBGT, how does that translate to what us Average Joes know about the temperature? Is that equivalent to a 90 heat index (which seems low). What has me scratching my head is going "black flag" at 90 degrees. It's always 90 degrees here in the summer.

Can someone explain Wet Bulb Globe Temperature? According to the info we've received from Region, this is the criteria Jamboree will be using to monitor and restrict activities due to heat. What is this? Is it different from the Heat Index you see on TV weather? According to the info from region a WBGT above 82F results in some sort of restrictions on activities. At WBGT of 90F or above, moderate activities require 10 minutes of rest per hour, "active" activities requre 40 minutes rest per hour and strenuous activities (which includes the arena show mobilization) requires alternate plans. According to Weather.com, the average, real (not indexed) temperature for the end of July is 88F. How's this going to work? Hal, how many days have you had in the past month that weren't above 90?

Good thread, sorry I missed so much while away at camp. Here's the problem as I see it: In a perfect world, I would make Cubs co-ed, Scouting separate, and Venturing co-ed. Without drastic changes in camping and patrols,I just think early adolescent youth are better served in single-sex groups. There are enough sexual tensions, hormones, social-structure and relationship issues with the boys. Adding girls would be difficult. The developmental differences between 12-year-old girls and boys are significant. Although I have no experience with Venturing, I think much of the problem with that program is that too many crews are still too much like Boy Scout troops. The girls seem like an after thought when they are included at all. (I'd like to see a statistic on the number of male-only crews -- I bet it is high. Around here a large number of crews are all male and simply a way of extending the program for boys.) Things like advancement and OA are constant reminders that this is still BOY SCOUTS. If there is a local option, or if 11- to 14-year-olds are kept separate, the program for them needs to be similar enough that when the move into Venturing, both sexes are on the same footing. While middle school boys and girls may need different paths, somehow they need to wind up at the same place when they move into Venturing. I'm not sure how you solve that. Maybe we have co-ed troops but single-sex patrols? There are girls who like knitting (an maybe a few boys). Keeping the current program and simply adding girls with no adjustments doesn't recognize the varying interests of boys and girls. Just to keep the traditionalist somewhat happy, maybe we keep the Eagle Scout and Silver Award as the top achievement for the boys and girls. (Although that would require a merger/takeover of GSUSA, which isn't what we're talking about here.) One thing which needs to be considered is re-structuring the program ages. (I think there are enough problems in the program now to justify that.) We've often discussed the idea that there seems to be downward pressure on the age of Scouts. Maybe this is the opportunity to address that. I've long felt that Webelos needs to be more closely related to Boy Scout troops than Cub Scout packs or possibly more of a stand-alone program. What if ages 7-9 were co-ed, parallel gender-specific programs for ages 10 through 15; then co-ed again ages 16 through 20? Clearly, I have no professional expertise here. We need smart people who do understand the different developmental stages of boys and girls to study the issue. But I think there is enough wrong with the current system that it is time for a new look.

I got the micro fiber sheet set (fitted sheet, top sheet and pillow case) from Wal-Mart for about 12 bucks and tried it out at camp last week. HEAVEN! First half of the week the highs were in the mid-90s with lows in the high 70s over night. Mid-week, as a front moved through, it was quite humid and sticky. I was dry and comfortable every night. As it cooled off later in the week (overnight Friday we set a new record low of 57) I added a thin acrylic stadium blanket and was very comfortable. I will say I was a bit chilly Friday night. Every morning I would shake out the linens and make the bed. Laying everything out flat was enough to let it dry and freshen up. Didn't need to hang things outside and take the chance of getting rained on. One thing that always irritates me about using regular-sized sheets on a cot is they don't stay tucked-in and sooner or later I wake up on the bare, nasty, vinyl mattress. The bottom sheet on this set had elastic all the way around, so it wasn't a problem. I did take a couple of large binder clips and secured the bottom of the sheets and blankets to the bottom edge of the cot. Never woke up with cold tootsies hanging out the bottom of the blankets. Life is good.

Sounds like a whole lot of people looking to make their jobs easier rather than looking out for the best interest of the boys. We have a boy in our troop with severe kidney problems and is on a very restricted low sodium diet. At camp last week at every meal there was a special cart at the end of the serving line with a pre-made tray with his name on it. There were usually five or six such trays on the cart. Camps can accommodate special needs, if your council will take the Scout Oath and Law to heart.

Just got home yesterday. Had a good week. It's always fun watching the new scouts bond with the older guys. With 26 first year campers, we spend a lot of time dealing with homesickness and got bot be good friends with the camp nurse. Keep 'em hydrated. First of the week was in the mid 90 and had to deal with a lot of headaches and other minor dehydration issues. Friday morning set a new record low of 56, which is dang cold if you're set up for hot weather. I taught two sessions of Wood Carving and really enjoy that. The small groups and working one-on-one with the boys is what it's all about.

Thinking in terms of top and bottom of the organization is part of the problem. BSA needs to think in terms of customers (boys) and shareholders (leaders). Thinking of it in those terms, you tell me what national organizations do a good job of engaging their customers and shareholders? The century old model of only counting CORs as stakeholders has got to go. BSA treats CORs like a bunch of gadflys at company annual meeting. You have your 15 minutes of fame in April, but you're tolerated once a year because those are the rules. In the real world, shareholders get to vote with their feet everyday. Unfortunately, BSA doesn't get a minute-by-minute ticker of what it's volunteers think of it's performance, but it should be managed as if it did. I think we do a reasonable job of tailoring the product (program) to meet the needs of the customers (boys). Everyone has an opinion there, just like everyone has an opinion updates and new releases of other products. Basementdweller's comment that camping isn't as popular as is once was it in the right direction, but there is a subtle difference. I think kid's perception of camping and the outdoor program is substantially different than it was a generation ago. When I was a scout we were happy as clams to go out in the woods, spend the weekend staring into a campfire, BS-ing with our buddies and making a big pot of chili. Now, kids have the expectation that ever outing should look like a Mountain Dew commercial. Not only do they want to mountain bike down El Capitan, they want helicopter rides to the top they want pizza and the latest video game at the end of the day. Truth is, many of our Scouts get this kind of entertainment with their families. Several families have places on the river with ski boats and PWCs. Going to summer camp, waiting with six other kids and then skiing with all the BSA restrictions is no adventure. If you've spent most every Christmas vacation of your life in Colorado skiing, going to West Virginia with 10,000 other Scouts is no treat either. This is the end result of more affluent families, two incomes, fewer children and over-indulgent parents, as someone mentioned earlier. Frankly, our troop struggles to top these adventures. Even when we offer something like Philmont or SeaBase, the lure of high adventure is often offset by the work demands of a Scout-led program. A couple years ago one of my ASMs was rubbing my nose in the fact that his daughter's church group did more backpacking than our troop. His daughter loves backpacking and he couldn't understand why a Scout troop couldn't have the same great experiences at the church. I couldn't understand how this girl was doing any sort of backpacking at all in that she had never camped a night in her life. The short version is that the backpacking trips are totally guided. The kids show up at the outfitter and the entire trip is laid out for them -- no planning, no effort at all. All equipment is provided. All the kids needed was boots and clothes. Food is provided by the guide service and meals are cooked by the guides. Food, water and equipment was staged along the way to lighten the loads. Compare that to how a similar BSA trip would be run and I think you see the competition. As an aside, I'm curious to know what will happen to the UK's huge spikes in membership when all those new members figure out that Scouting trips don't all look like one or Bear Grylls's shows?

Yeah, that's my point, John. My hunch is our traditional markets are growing much more slowly or maybe even declining compared to the overall population. Tapping expanding markets while maintaining the base is tough, especially for an organization based on what many see as deeply held, personal principles. Does anyone think tweaking the camping or advancement program is going to bring Merlyn around to our side? Any of you looking forward to taking entertaining a host of parents and younger siblings at summer camp this year?

As one who respects your opinion, Barry, I would be interested to hear what dramatic changes you would suggest.

Someone who's been around this block before pick a time and location that works. I'll try to be there.

rkfrance's laundry list of issues gets to the real point, that the membership declines are a result of a multitude of issues. I have no doubt that if there were clear, convincing data that membership drops are linked directly to the 3G, you would see a change, (albeit a slow, bloody change) in national policy. Mazucca's now infamous comments that "camping isn't necessarily a big thing" or that we can "teach character and leadership through aerospace and computers" is a clear indication that the executive leadership, at least, is willing to burn the village to save it. I would like to see the real, bottom-line demographic studies I know national must have done. My theory is that the core demographics Scouting draws from is declining much faster that the overall Total Available Youth statistics show. Face it. Our core constituency are middle-class, suburban whites. Even here in our little corner of the woods, overall population growth hides the slow growth, even decline in white middle-class families. It is expected that the new census will show the whites population will dip below 50% for the first time. Pretty clearly, national is reading these same polls. Where do you think they get the hispanic emphasis, Scouting & Soccer, and Mazucca's comments about adapting the program to include extended families because some cultures are suspicious of leaving their sons with "strangers" for a weekend campout. I think we're being buttered up. Some would say set up. There are those who believe the future of Scouting is in computers, aerospace and family outings. If you believe the mission of Scouting is to teach "ethical decision making," the methods are immaterial, the outdoor program is expendable. Think Y-Guides for teenagers. I you believe our purpose is to teach boys to be self-reliant, patriotic, courage and great woodsmen, you're in for a bumpy ride.

This year I picked up five non-cub fifth-graders who joined the troop along with their Webelos buddies from the pack at cross-over time. I also registered two older boys (and their trained ASM dads) who moved from another troop. They said we are more of a traditional, Scout-led troop than their old one. What did we do? Not a dang thing. All word of mouth. A couple years ago the DEs organized a Boy Scout recruiting night at the local middle school. Several troops went to a lot of trouble making Dutch oven desserts, rappeling exhibits, etc. One -- ONE -- boy showed up and he had already decided to join one of the troops where he had a friend. That's the key. By middle school the ONLY thing which will appeal to troop-age boys is an appeal from their friends. I think the typical Scout Show baloney is more of a negative and tends to reinforce the Boy Scout nerd stereotype. Now maybe if we did open houses at the local gun club......

How is this different from the old SSD video? You know,with the creepy, Rod Serling guy that pops in from the side of the screen with the omnious sounding voice to critique what happened? While the idea has merit, I agree with da Beav that media reports aren't of much use, even for forum discussion. Whether or not buddy checks were occurring regularly or if swim areas had been designated properly means nothing to most reporters and editors.

I stopped by the local REI and looked at their selection. Their best recommendation was a microfiber bag liner for $40. Based on that I got a set of twin-sized microfiber bed sheets from Wal-Mart. I'll try them out next week at camp and let you guys know how they work out.

Bull. If a counselor doesn't have enough interest in working with a Scout to help him meet the technical pre-requisites of a merit badge, he or she doesn't need to be a counselor. A boy shows up at your door because he wants to learn first aid, and you sent him away because he doesn't remember the difference between heat stroke and heat exhaustion, you just saw the last Scout from my troop. Per the other discussions we've had ad nauseaum, I do agree that the Scoutmaster has a gatekeeper function in the merit badge program, but that should serve the boys' interest.

AMEN on the 2-ply and the Gold Bond. We have a two pound container that stays on the picnic table. MAKE SURE you get the body powder. NEVER use the Gold Bond foot powder anywhere but on the feet -- if you know what I mean. Not sure about the size of the plywood. About 30" wide and 48 long. Depends on the size of the cot.

When you're talking about individual skills, in the real world I don't think there's a great distinction between the T-2-1 requirements and the merit badges. Our troop teaches T-2-1 first aid and the merit badge at the same time. If you sit through the sessions and learn enough to pass the T-2-1 requirements, you get them signed off. If you learned you learn enough for the MB, you earn that. Even at summer camp, the first day of first aid merit badge is reviewing the T-2-1 requirements. Swimming MB is a little different. Say I have a Scout who is a rather marginal swimmer and cannot float on his back for love nor money. He rates as a beginner on the swim test. Would I recommend him for swimming MB? Depending on the counselor, probably. I know any decent swimming instructor can teach anyone the back float in about 10 minutes. I may even let a complete non-swimmer "work on" the merit badge one-on-one with the counselor as a means of learning to swim. Again, it depends on the counselor. When do the swimming lessons end and the merit badge begin? Hard to say. On the other hand, I certainly would not let the same non-swimmer sign up for Swimming MB at summer camp with 30 boys in a class. Bottom line is that the learning process may be separate from advancement. As long as the boys are learning first aid or swimming or anything else, the rest is just paperwork. It is a little more cut and dried when you're taking about more advance merit badges and pre-requsites like canoeing and kayaking. If happen to know that canoeing or kayaking is a prerequisite to whitewater AND I know that Scout A doesn't have it, then yes, I'll tell the scout he's not eligible for whitewater. On the other hand, if I miss it, it shouldn't be a big deal for the counselor to catch it either.