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twin_wasp

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Everything posted by twin_wasp

  1. I am the former SM of a troop sponsored by a volunteer fire company. The troop closed a few years ago, with no apparent connection to scout membership policies. Most of the families moved to another troop, which had just been chartered by a church, which to my knowledge, has no policy on gays as leaders. I am no lawyer, but I do know a bit about law. A fire company or a public school must operate under whatever state, federal or local law applies regarding discrimination. It does not matter if they are a BSA charter oeganization or not. A religious school or a church is protected by the f
  2. Money Tamer, thanks for the intriguing post. You identified an interesting point about the philosophy of innate character, which seems to be a common doctrine in a lot of popular literature and movies, that people are good or evil at their core, and that life and its challenges are dramatic forums for stripping away the hypocracy to show a person's true character. The idea is also popular and useful among our political extremists, who vilify their opponents, rather than just disagree with them. I think we are drawn to this drama because of the human proclivity of presenting false images of our
  3. Thanks, Bob White, I think we are both thinking along the same lines. TW
  4. Bob White: Point well taken about the term "Class A" - but I meant to differentiate the difference between the uniform you wear to a court of honor - sashes, pin on religious awards, service pins etc and the one you wear to dinner at camp followed by the campfire - rank, temporary camporee patch, and none of the pin on stuff. BSA does not to my knowledge have a specific term - but my troop often used the term "class A" to mean your full uniform. I think this could be interpreted as a gap between "BSA policy" and reality, but I BSA policy is not intended to cover every aspect of sc
  5. Little Billie, I would and have pointed out consequences, if any, occur for being improperly dressed. I have had this conversation over and over with scouts and with my own kids. In general, boys around here are OK about being uniformed at a scouting event, but the middle school boys (over 12) would rather die than be seen in public in uniform. I know this runs counter to the party line, but that is a fact of life. Dress codes in reality have four levels, out of uniform, in uniform, "Class A" (meaning with sashes and pins and all awards) and Class B - a troop shirt. I believe
  6. So often, you hear "illegals" denounced as lawbreakers, criminals. Can't we design a process that awards not the technicalities of how you came to be here, but whether you are contributing to our society? I have heard of high school seniors who score at the top of their class who are unable to apply for college because they are illegals. These kids are exactly the folks our nation needs. My great grandparents were famine refugees. They shipped out from Ireland to Canada around 1850 and then crossed over to upstate New York over what was probably an unregulated border. They did not
  7. Back to the subject. One wiser and younger scouter told me that the scouter's bottom line that the boys run the troop - and often they will make mistakes, but you have an obligation to intervene if health or safety is in jeopardy, or if the troop is deviating from the program, (such as no skydiving) The dress code thing seems to be in the allowable mistakes category, - no one gets hurt by it, you may or may not be deviating from scout rules and the boys should be encouraged to find out what BSA rules are and what the consequences are of non-compliance. For example, without un
  8. First, for ww40, I was a camp program director back in the 70s, when women were routinely excluded from professional scouting jobs. I believe it was 1975; BSA sent a confidential latter out to their council personnel people. My camp director read me the letter, but did not give me a copy. As I recall, the letter said that they had reviewed the law, and the way the legal precedents were going, and concluded that they would not stand in the way of hiring women. They neither wanted to go to court nor felt they could win if they did. I believe the letter said that if a female app
  9. TJ, it took me a while to get around to responding. I see no reason you should quit scouts. So long as you do not discuss it with the boys, you are within BSA program guidelines. BSA has never asked all gays to quit ( there would be quite an exodus) and BSA has never put out one single directive to the committees, sponsors or troops to get rid of gays. If we quit all the organizations disagree with, I would be without a job, a political party, a church and a union, not to mention BSA. I will conclude with a few paragraphs from a letter I sent to the local newspaper after the Dale
  10. Interesting responses. I believe that the law does not apply to the membership rules of voluntary groups, thus BSA would not be required to change its membership rules. The Supreme Court Dale decision establishes the right of voluntary groups to have their own membership rules anyway. The new law explicitly applies to employment, which was not really covered by the Dale decision. To be covered by the religious exemption, BSA would have to be a religion, or an institution established by one. The way I read the law, you could argue it either way. BSA sometimes claims to be a religiou
  11. Just a few more points, The class 1 and two forms are utterly useless, in my opinion. The class 3 medical form is a confusing mess, and my doctor considers it quaint and obsolete. To me it appears to be three forms taped together, perhaps there were once three commitees? I too have encountered rejection of the portion that authorizes treatment when a boy needed a bone set at an ER. Don't be confused by the plethora of laws and rules about confidentiality. They generally do not concern laypersons, but are designed to limit (or at least appear to correct) abuses of our medical r
  12. My impression from many years of experience with medical records, is that much of the law applies to medical institutions, insurance companies and medical professionals. A scoutmaster, or a coach is none of these things. The scoutmaster has a responsibility to review the medical forms of the boys in his troop. The SM also has a responsibility to insure that the other adult leaders also know af any health problems. Concurrently, the SM has a responsibility to remind other leaders that, law or not, medical information is basically confidential. (A scout is trustworthy) By extens
  13. This is the first time I have posted a topic, so here goes. The New York State Senate just passed the Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act (SONDA) a law forbidding discrimination in employment, housing, education and public services on the basis of sexual orientation. The bill memo that accompanied the law can be found at: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=1971 Sexual orientation is defined in the law as heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, or asexuality, whether actual or perceived. However, nothing contained herein shall be construed to protect conduct o
  14. Just a few points, I have never heard the LDS church described as Gnostic, but it seems to make sense. However, what do the members think of that characterization? As I understand it, gnosticism is a category or religion, as is monotheism or polytheism, rather than a particular faith. Gnosticism (as a category) is a religion that has mysteries and teachings that are revealed only as a member is initiated into higher levels of the faith. Not all converts are expected to attain the highest levels of the faith, in fact, full participation in the faith is limited to those who have attained
  15. The genius of Christianity is that is has been so adaptable in finding its way into so many cultures and so many hearts, often by accepting the existing celebrations and beliefs and baptising them into the service of the gospel. So you have Christmas replacing Saturnalia. All souls day replacing Lugnasa (or whatever preceeded halloween) I am Irish by descent. Did you ever wonder that the great woman leader of the early Irish Church took the name Bridget, the same name as the Goddess associated with holy springs and water? That the monk-hero Brendan, who may or may not have sailed
  16. Great discussion. The issue of salvation without Jesus Christ, or as sometimes phrased by us Catholics. "without the church" has been argued and discussed for centuries. My church teaches that who is or is not saved is up to God, not to us. The fact that baptism and faith promise redemption to the Christian, does not mean that the atheist, Muslim or Hindu is damned. I am aware that many evengelical or fundamentalist Christians do not accept this premise. My own personal take on it is that I cannot imagine a God, who is all good, who would reject one of good friends who is an
  17. Short answer: No, it is not the last word. First, a statement about membership, There should be two religious considerations when it comes to membership in the scouts. 1.) Signing the statement of religious purpose, 2.) Following Scout programmatic guidelines. We should not be looking farther into the religious beliefs of our members. If an atheist signs the statement, and is generally supportive of boys practicing their religions, for example by sitting in on religious services, I see know reason to expell him. On the other hand an atheist (or anyone else, for
  18. Dear Scouters and friends: Since a scout is trustworthy, let me describe where I am coming from. I am glad that BSA has a right to set its own standards, but I believe that the organization is making many mistakes in doing so. I believe that BSA should allow unit level decisions (i.e. sponsor and committee) concerning who accept as scouters who otherwise pass their background check, so long as they follow scouting guidelines, as do all other scouters, about what is and is not part of the scouting program. I firmly believe that BSA has no business dictating theology to religious d
  19. I find this fascinating, but confusing. I am Catholic, and neither me nor my church have any problems with evolution. God created the universe, and evolution appears to be the way the various living creatures developed. The Bible is the inspired word of God, but that does not make it a scientific or historic authority, and does not require a literal interpretation. Creationism (ie creation in six days a few thousand years ago)is a construct designed to defend the doctine that the Bible must be understood literally against overwhelming scientific evidence that the world is much olde
  20. He probably was a good officer, but the prison management has the right to control what is and is not worn in a prison setting, for reasons of safety, consistency and precedent. His job requires discipline, obedience to orders, and adherence to procedure. I have the feeling there is more to this story than meets the eye. It looks like he found a way to maneuver his bosses into an apparent anti flag stance, why would he do this? We could all get a big cling flag and put it on our windshields right in front of the driver, and in most towns get a ticket for driving with obstructed vision.
  21. My boys both studied karate, and I think it can be a very positive force. Things to look for: What is the philosophy that guides the school? Underlying philosphies vary a lot. Some schools of martial arts are simply about combat techniques. These might be fine for a police officer or a soldier, but are questionable for a child. Others can be profoundly peaceful. One of the the great masters of Okinawan Karate, prominent in the postwar revival of karate, wrote a book about his experiences. He describes a situation where he actually had to defend himself in 1947 against a homeless wa
  22. If you are indeed researching for a paper, please study up on survey techniques, or ask your professor for some advise. This is one of the most convoluted short questionaires I have ever seen, and will almost be impossible to reliably interpret. Many have commented on the assumed bias, I cannot even tell which way it is biased. So head back to the drawing board and try again...after all, I assume the paper is not due for a few days. Twin_Wasp
  23. I thought we were trying to help out a fellow scouter, not quible about the clergy! Anyway, This sounds like s seriously disturbed kid, he is violent and sounds delusional, he needs professional help, (that was easy advice) and us volunteer amateurs are no match for this kind of illness. Maybe he could be helped by special scouting, maybe not, but at the moment, this boy has needs that leave scouting far down the list of priorities. I hope his parents are getting him the professional help he needs in the home schooling situation. And I mean this, you cannot fool around with seri
  24. I thank TJ for a very good summary of what is going on. I have been following this forum for a while, and I am impresses by the standards that people follow, even when disagreeing. I will add one thing, my council knows my position, as well as the feelings of many others. They have not made any effort to suppress me, or any other dissenters that I know of. Council DOES enforce the gay ban, a scouter who sent a letter to the council stating he was gay was kicked out. Personally, I advocate leaving it up to the sponsor and the troop committee. Today a committee can reject a
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