twin_wasp

I am the former SM of a troop sponsored by a volunteer fire company. The troop closed a few years ago, with no apparent connection to scout membership policies. Most of the families moved to another troop, which had just been chartered by a church, which to my knowledge, has no policy on gays as leaders. I am no lawyer, but I do know a bit about law. A fire company or a public school must operate under whatever state, federal or local law applies regarding discrimination. It does not matter if they are a BSA charter oeganization or not. A religious school or a church is protected by the f

Money Tamer, thanks for the intriguing post. You identified an interesting point about the philosophy of innate character, which seems to be a common doctrine in a lot of popular literature and movies, that people are good or evil at their core, and that life and its challenges are dramatic forums for stripping away the hypocracy to show a person's true character. The idea is also popular and useful among our political extremists, who vilify their opponents, rather than just disagree with them. I think we are drawn to this drama because of the human proclivity of presenting false images of our

Thanks, Bob White, I think we are both thinking along the same lines. TW

Bob White: Point well taken about the term "Class A" - but I meant to differentiate the difference between the uniform you wear to a court of honor - sashes, pin on religious awards, service pins etc and the one you wear to dinner at camp followed by the campfire - rank, temporary camporee patch, and none of the pin on stuff. BSA does not to my knowledge have a specific term - but my troop often used the term "class A" to mean your full uniform. I think this could be interpreted as a gap between "BSA policy" and reality, but I BSA policy is not intended to cover every aspect of sc

Little Billie, I would and have pointed out consequences, if any, occur for being improperly dressed. I have had this conversation over and over with scouts and with my own kids. In general, boys around here are OK about being uniformed at a scouting event, but the middle school boys (over 12) would rather die than be seen in public in uniform. I know this runs counter to the party line, but that is a fact of life. Dress codes in reality have four levels, out of uniform, in uniform, "Class A" (meaning with sashes and pins and all awards) and Class B - a troop shirt. I believe

So often, you hear "illegals" denounced as lawbreakers, criminals. Can't we design a process that awards not the technicalities of how you came to be here, but whether you are contributing to our society? I have heard of high school seniors who score at the top of their class who are unable to apply for college because they are illegals. These kids are exactly the folks our nation needs. My great grandparents were famine refugees. They shipped out from Ireland to Canada around 1850 and then crossed over to upstate New York over what was probably an unregulated border. They did not

Back to the subject. One wiser and younger scouter told me that the scouter's bottom line that the boys run the troop - and often they will make mistakes, but you have an obligation to intervene if health or safety is in jeopardy, or if the troop is deviating from the program, (such as no skydiving) The dress code thing seems to be in the allowable mistakes category, - no one gets hurt by it, you may or may not be deviating from scout rules and the boys should be encouraged to find out what BSA rules are and what the consequences are of non-compliance. For example, without un

First, for ww40, I was a camp program director back in the 70s, when women were routinely excluded from professional scouting jobs. I believe it was 1975; BSA sent a confidential latter out to their council personnel people. My camp director read me the letter, but did not give me a copy. As I recall, the letter said that they had reviewed the law, and the way the legal precedents were going, and concluded that they would not stand in the way of hiring women. They neither wanted to go to court nor felt they could win if they did. I believe the letter said that if a female app

TJ, it took me a while to get around to responding. I see no reason you should quit scouts. So long as you do not discuss it with the boys, you are within BSA program guidelines. BSA has never asked all gays to quit ( there would be quite an exodus) and BSA has never put out one single directive to the committees, sponsors or troops to get rid of gays. If we quit all the organizations disagree with, I would be without a job, a political party, a church and a union, not to mention BSA. I will conclude with a few paragraphs from a letter I sent to the local newspaper after the Dale

Interesting responses. I believe that the law does not apply to the membership rules of voluntary groups, thus BSA would not be required to change its membership rules. The Supreme Court Dale decision establishes the right of voluntary groups to have their own membership rules anyway. The new law explicitly applies to employment, which was not really covered by the Dale decision. To be covered by the religious exemption, BSA would have to be a religion, or an institution established by one. The way I read the law, you could argue it either way. BSA sometimes claims to be a religiou

Just a few more points, The class 1 and two forms are utterly useless, in my opinion. The class 3 medical form is a confusing mess, and my doctor considers it quaint and obsolete. To me it appears to be three forms taped together, perhaps there were once three commitees? I too have encountered rejection of the portion that authorizes treatment when a boy needed a bone set at an ER. Don't be confused by the plethora of laws and rules about confidentiality. They generally do not concern laypersons, but are designed to limit (or at least appear to correct) abuses of our medical r

My impression from many years of experience with medical records, is that much of the law applies to medical institutions, insurance companies and medical professionals. A scoutmaster, or a coach is none of these things. The scoutmaster has a responsibility to review the medical forms of the boys in his troop. The SM also has a responsibility to insure that the other adult leaders also know af any health problems. Concurrently, the SM has a responsibility to remind other leaders that, law or not, medical information is basically confidential. (A scout is trustworthy) By extens

Golly.

This is the first time I have posted a topic, so here goes. The New York State Senate just passed the Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act (SONDA) a law forbidding discrimination in employment, housing, education and public services on the basis of sexual orientation. The bill memo that accompanied the law can be found at: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=1971 Sexual orientation is defined in the law as heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, or asexuality, whether actual or perceived. However, nothing contained herein shall be construed to protect conduct o

Just a few points, I have never heard the LDS church described as Gnostic, but it seems to make sense. However, what do the members think of that characterization? As I understand it, gnosticism is a category or religion, as is monotheism or polytheism, rather than a particular faith. Gnosticism (as a category) is a religion that has mysteries and teachings that are revealed only as a member is initiated into higher levels of the faith. Not all converts are expected to attain the highest levels of the faith, in fact, full participation in the faith is limited to those who have attained