troutmaster

So, we have the real reason for this board. Let's hope perhaps the few who seem prone to forgetting, will get their focus back on the goal.

Great post.

A friend of mine gave me a booklet from a recent leadership gathering in Tennessee, and it included a number of contacts for fund raising. I was surprised that there are at least two companies, other than Trail's End. One's web site, Pecatonica River, has little info, other than a wide variety not available from Trail's End, but apparently has been being used by a few councils in the South for a number of years (www.prpopcorn.com). The other seems to have almost everything Trail's End has, at least at their site, plus a different assortment. It has councils listed from a broad area of the country. It is called Camp Masters (www.campmaster.org).

Is anyone familiar with these programs? I know that I could see us changing to possibly have a different experience.

Remember sometime in late 50's losing a couple of corners, the second one for gouging my finger while whittling. The scar is still very clear, even today. I have been known to take corners off cards in my troop, if the scout can find his card. I even literally ripped one up once, then made the scout go through the entire knife and axe safety material again, including preparing kindling and making fuzz sticks. But, I am a mean old man.

Probably Eagle, youth God and Country, Scouters Key, SM Award of Merit (NESA), adult religious, Silver Beaver. Was neve a cub scout; training award is precursor, more or less for Key; District AoM odd man out. Unlikely the total will go any higher than I already have, so would not have to change; but if something more significant occurred it could.

Is there a 1st biennial record book? Have yet to see any notes about it, but perhaps just have not been in the right place.

Since this thread is not really in the right place, and it is basically a "he did/said", pretty unscoutlike list of comments, can we please get rid of it? Thank you for considering this.

Saw somewhere recently that the books were to be sold in regular bookstores soon. Possibly another reason for a more colorful cover. Remember when they offered the Fieldbook to the public; the cover was very different and more interesting it seemed to me.

It's Camp Tahquitz for me tomorrow; first time there. But discovered the camp I attended in 1959 is right next door, but now a church camp. Plan on visiting if at all possible. Only seven scouts this year, but we will do well and have fun. We have to hang bear bags, so that should be an adventure.

This weekend we are going to Camp Tahquitz, one of the only council camps without the OA. But, I found out that my original scout camp, long defunct but still there as a church venue, is right next door. The original fire ring, where I was jerked off a log and hauled to the front for a true "tap out" in 1959, is still there from what I am told. Arataba and the Wisumahi Lodge; I will go visit, and perhaps have a moment of silent renewal in the old bowl.

"Original" is the 1910 two author, BP and Seton, book temporarily issued. Paper is harder to find than hard, probably due to the cove itself, but complete in either version is generally $500+ and can go over $1000.

First edition came out in 1911, and had three printings that year in regular formats, the first two in olive drab, and the last in maroon. First, First can be identified by the ads in the back with Kahuna's reference work.

There actually were 4 printings in 1913, all in maroon, and noted as 5th-8th printings by Kahuna. There are a lot of oddities in the very early years, such as special printings by the YMCA of the 1911 book, in a blue color, variants (hard to tell how or why in some cases, on different paper, or with no ads, and so on; Price was still working on these when he died, trying to clarify, but his book pretty much runs the known variations at this point). The first Every Boys Library hard copy is in 1914; but it was reissued for years afterward, so you need to look at the dates inside. Much that was published the first 5 years or so was done erratically and without good record keeping as to when, how, and why.

There also were officially issued leather and hard backs which are more scarce. In the end, condition is the big decider. Poor or loose copies are out there and go for less than $100 in some cases, but any with spine intact, all the pages still connected, and no rips or heavy soiling, will bring premium prices, depending on the auction.

All you guys from the same area is interesting; just another reflection of what I have heard of the strength of the old San Fernando Valley Council and lodge. I reentered scouting as an adult a bit later in Canoga Park; but it was now the Great Western Council. Met a lot of die-hard SFC guys the year and half I was there. I did my first adult training at Camp Slauson as part of the infamous Patron Group; still have my flag, neckerchief, slide, and buckle. Served on the staff later, before moving to Ventura County Council in 1977. It was a story told by (Mike,?; old age again)Smith at the Spring COR in 1976 that rehooked me, as I was visiting. Since then, I have been to Whitsett with my troop in Ventura and reintroduced myself to Mike (?). Still was a great story teller. There were some serious backpackers in that Patron group. The ones I still remember were Bob White and Mike Brandt. Not sure if Mike ever made his planned trip to Everest, but he sure talked about it.

Small world isn't it. I am leaving for Tahquitz on Sunday; never been there. Found out it is only a couple miles from the site of my only official scout camp as a boy, Camp Arataba (now Benneville Pines). Plan on making a visit if I can, just for memory's sake.

Later,

David; I too found it to be lacking in depth. Felt she did not support many of her inuendos very well. Also, she danced all around Seton's tendency towards persecution, but never really dealt with it. I have read a half dozen or more BP biographies, and came to the conclusion that BP, while certainly borrowing from others, used it in a more viable manner which led to the Boy Scouts' success. Overall, BP appears to me to have been fairly typical in his attitudes and approach to things as most men of his position in English society from that period. Seton, on the other hand, has always struck me as a very egocentric, but accomplished artist, author, and naturalist. I can easily see how he and West would have not seen eye to eye on most things. Reality is that BSA would probably not be what it is today without all of their contributions. But the English model, while giving a firm foundation, really would never have fit well in our country, in my opinion.

Am looking forward to seeing some of your research soon in publication.

While in London, try to do the Tower too. I would think kids would be very interested in the myriad war ephemera, including the elephant armor. And of course there are the ghosts of the tower to consider.

Also, if time allows, even in passing; observe the "stump" speakers and various exhibitionists in Hyde Park, if you come upon them.

Just finished reading (or re-reading?; thought I had but was not overly familiar) Black Wolf, by Keller. It is a biography of Seton and focuses mostly on his personal life. There is direct mention of his disagreements with B.P. and the BSA, but it generally talks about his work and family life. Still, good read.

If you can find a copy of the book BE PREPARED, by Cochran, read it. He deals early on with some boys, Eagles, he inherits from a previous leader. He very soon is suspicious of some of their "skills". Good perspective on this particular issue.

Because I was a scout and felt a need:

Pioneer Hike

(8-04-83)

Reflecting on the scouting way,

while set alone within the wood;

I saw the boy that once was me

who sought to grow, be understood.

But now its someone else's son

whose youthful zeal rings through the trees,

who looks to Me to understand,

to see the way He sees.

Thus, the cycle has come around,

the scouting boy became a man;

and what he learned within his youth,

he returns, the best he can.

Camp Chawanakee, B.S.A.

Shaver Lake, Calif.

8-5-83

(This message has been edited by troutmaster)

Stosh;

Interestingly, in more cases than you would think, the star sports player is in scouts, and the best often become Eagle. Same goes for academic successes. They may not talk about being in scouts if they are into athletics, but in our area many are.

In relation to the retention discussion, I wonder if we should be looking at the activities that keep the lesser goal oriented scouts interested. It seems to me that a lot of discussions focus too much on how to get them to stay and become Eagle, rather than simply make the program fun for as many as possible, whether they are aiming to become Eagle or not.

Just some thoughts. What think some of the rest of the board?

In regard to non-traditional merit badges, should we be looking at better utilization of camp properties by perhaps using camps for non-traditional themes during off season use, or early and late season? Could we, for example, arrange to have a specialty camp set up, inviting both scouts and non-scouts, and include related merit badges for scouts, but also certificates and so on for all in the skills or activities? Would we find takers from other groups who might want to do something like this, but do not have easy access to a property to handle it? Would it be another cooperative way to enhance the scouting image, indirectly? Just wonder what others may think.

Titles I have in my collection; A Boy Scout with the Sea Devil, Scout Naturalists in the Rocky Mountains, A Boy Scout Round the World, Fliver to Cambodia, Boy Scouts and the Oregon Trail, My Hike, Three Scout Naturalists in the National Parks, Boy Scouts in the Grizzly Country, Two Green Bars (based on true events), Zuni Masks (story of Koshare Dancers), Antarctic Scout, 90 degrees South (Paul Siple), A Boy Scout with Byrd; Dark Sky, Dark Land (Hmong, Troop 100); and Be Prepared (based on a scoutmasters tenure in the 40's). There also are a number of miscellaneous local histories out there, and recently have been some newer publications by scouters that I have yet to get.

Here is the web site for the Koshare group; really inspiring. http://www.kosharehistory.org/

David;

I too find the quote you share from a Hillcourt interview to be interesting. I have just spent almost an hour reviewing the Peterson book, and cannot find the interview. Can you tell me where you read it please? I would like to get a copy for my historical collection. Thanks.

On the subject of books: I have found many of the "real" scout adventure books from the 20's and 30's. Some of these stories are truly inspiring, others seem in retrospect to demonstrate fortunate outcomes in questionable endeavors. But, these were things young men did in that period of our history, even non-scouts. I think the most amazing book is one by a South American scout called MY HIKE. He, and two others started out from Buenos Aires to hike to New York City. He actually completed the journey; one of the others died, and the second one had to be carried out. Foolish; very possibly. But what a great adventure.

Also interesting, and, for me, often amusing, is the one by the French scouts who took a "flivver" from Paris to Cambodia in the 30's. Lots of challenges to overcome, including literally taking the car apart and putting it back together, and somehow getting it and them across dangerous rivers and very high mountains.

On the home front, we have the well known THREE SCOUTS IN AFRICA, ones to do with national park work, sea journeys, and the saga of 800 scouts who reenacted a trip from Wyoming to Oregon on the Oregon Trail back in the 30s.

More recent books are also out there, such as the story of the Koshare group, or the history of the Hmong scouts.

Wonder how many scouters even have heard of some of these things. And wouldn't it be great if some of these true adventures could be made into a series for TV?

When, while reviewing adult med forms for camp check in, you notice that the parents along to help were not yet born when you graduated high school. Or, when a student in a class in which you are subbing says you are older than his "grandparents".

Out here in the radical West, we still have lots of issues with GPS devices, cell phones, and so on; even though it seems some of these things are permanent attachments to certain individuals. There are a lot of mountains and canyons out here, some of which are really deep or high. Lots of places where signals simply disappear. At our scout camp, people with cell phones have to hike out into a wide open area, or clear up on a ridge to get service sometimes. GPS is a wonderful thing, but if the batteries go bad, or you are in a canyon, they will be pretty much useless. So, you better have a map and compass to back you up. Also, a decent Silva compass with direction of travel base plate costs around $10-$15; and one of the fancier ones is less than $30 generally. A dependable GPS in much more expensive, and still requires periodic battery replacement. Also, I have read (though do not know if it is factual) that on occasion GPS signals conflict or get misdirected somehow. More fodder.

John-in-KC;

Never heard that one, "heaven to breakfast". Does it have definition; and do you know the derivitive? Just curious.

YIS

In our area, S. Cal., it is becoming more common as an "option", and reduces the cost per scout. At least one camp has it as required; but they also had the absolute lowest cost. They have since gone to only Cub activities in summer, and weekend use. I know that the cost of the large wall tents is escalating, and the abuse of them seems to be more common as well unfortuneately. Another disheartening stat, disrespect for property and abuse of privilege is growing. And so, another challenge for our "outdated" program.

JMHO