5scoutmom

Our crew set up a contingency plan - each boy plans to buy a 40 lb box, cook it up, bag it in sections and freeze it, to be defrosted as needed in the "Baconator," a device "Macgyvered" by one of my sons.

I told the boys this might be the time to start practicing some Kashrut, but they didn't like that idea.

When I was a Tiger leader, I had meetings on Sunday afternoons at 1. It worked well because the boys were young enough that most of their sports activities were on Saturdays in our town. They came after lunch so I didn't have to serve a snack and they were still awake enough to participate.

My other Tiger den was on Friday nights which I enjoyed as well.

When we first joined the Pack, meetings were on Weds. When we got involved, we changed it to Friday evening and our monthly attendance soared. We do all recruiting activities on Friday evenings - usually a BBQ in September and again in June, as a welcome and a year end. Our packs and troops don't meet in the summer as many people here do sleepaway camp and/or family vacations but we do have a family camping trip at the end of August at a camping area which is very close to town. We use it as a lure to get people to sign up in June because we open it to anyone who is registered as of July 1, even if they've never attended a den meeting yet.

One of my sons was shower resistant, to say the least, in his first year at camp. He was 10 and pre-pubescent and really did not smell. Nonetheless, when we got the phone call saying that he HAD to shower or they would carry him in feet first, 5scoutdad spoke to him and told him that we would allow the carrying in if he didn't walk in. He walked in. In HS, he became a twice a day showerer.

His younger brother is now 16 and has to be forced to the shower. The older one says that younger one is nervous of girls so he stays sloppy looking, which is a shame because he is a truly handsome kid (older brother is cute, but younger is drop dead when he cleans up). However, younger one is getting better, we're up to every other day in winter and every day in summer.

Youngest boy showers every night and he's just 13.

I had heard of this but hadn't seen it. I'm going to look for it because 1) 5scoutdad and I both grew up in NYC and 2) 5scoutdad actually attended TMR as a scout. I think it might be a nice movie to show to our upper middle class troop and crew.

My sons think Chuck Norris is awesome. I am not quite sure why. Years ago, they actually spent their own money on a giant poster of Chuck Norris-isms, none of which I can remember now. I plan to tell them your LNT joke, they'll get a (karate) kick out of it.

My council's cub scout day camp opened up to siblings this year for the first time ever. They are getting primarily disaffected Girl Scouts and kids whose parents want all of their offspring in one place. My oldest son is an area director there and he said so far it's working well. Of course, the kids all go home at night.

I don't know that this would work at boy scout camp where the sleeping out is part of the activity.

Younger siblings do not belong at scout camp and I say this as a mom of 4 sons who spent several summers scrambling for day and other care for younger sibs when 5scoutdad went to camp for 2 weeks with the sons who were boy scout aged.

I would have actually had a bit of a vacation had my husband taken the younger boys along but it wasn't right or fair. Instead, one summer, I would wake up at the crack of dawn, feed my youngest son, drive him and a friend to another town to catch the bus for cub scout day camp, drive home, walk a mile and a half to the train station, go to work and then run home to retrieve my son from his friend's house (the other parents did pick up duty). It was tough but the older boys enjoyed having their dad at camp with them and they still talk about it. They would not have enjoyed it had their younger brother been there needing them to babysit.

My sons have said that they might like to work at scout camps as adult leaders when they are grown and that they would want to take their families. At the camp they've gone to, there have been younger kids from families who work there and they do some activities with the scouts but not merit badges - they'll swim but not do the badge work. They are not allowed to shoot or do archery if a paying camper is on line and I know this was enforced because one of my sons was an achery counselor one year.

I would inform the family in question that this will not happen again...

The lake at our scout camp is, IMHO, gross. It's like the lake at my camp I went to as a kid, which I hated.

My second son earned his swimming MB as a 10 year old first year scout in that lake and his lifesaving MB the next year.

My other two sons have refused to take the camp swim test because they find the lake gross and will not set foot in it. I have told them it is their choice. They are strong swimmers and will earn the swimming MB in a pool, not at camp. I am a strong swimmer and did junior lifesaving as a teen but I would never swim in a lake.

As for the test itself, I have seen it in practice. Second son passed it at age 7 when he went to cub scout sleepaway camp; he was the only camper allowed in the swimmer area because he was the only camper who passed the test. I think the test is fair and necessary. At our camp, kids can test any day. If they don't test, they can only go in the wading area.

As for falling out of a canoe, etc, all people should wear PFDs whenever they are on the water.

Baden P -

As a Jew, I disagree with your statement that the original Covenant was voided by the "new" covenant. MY covenant still exists, although I do agree that strict adherence to many of the tenets put forth in Leviticus is no longer necessary. I tell my children (whose father is Catholic) that those rules were designed to protect people of that time from things which were barely understood - pigs had trichinosis so it was safer not to eat them, shellfish spoiled easily in a desert climate, safer to avoid them, etc. I tell them that if the leaders said it was a health matter that people would just take their chances but if it was a commandment from G-d, they might adhere to it. There were a lot fewer Jews than those around them so they could not afford to lose them to trichinosis or sacrifice their reproductive capacity to homosexual relationships, which would not propagate the tribes.

Our area is a fairly liberal one, though we do seem to have an over-representation of Republicans in scouting (LOL!) and we do not ask - everyone is put through the background check but once they pass, we don't ask.

As for the original question, Obama has not done as well as I had hoped but I am going to give him a second chance. Bush had 8 years to destroy this country - Obama should have 8 to try to put it back together.

I have been privy to many eagle projects and they are generally funded by donation.

Some examples:

One boy planted bushes and perennials along a roadway in a particular village. The village donated the plants and bushes, local restaurants donated pizzas and sodas, the troop members brought their own shovels and other tools.

Another boy cleared a trail at a local park and built two benches. The entity which ran the park donated the supplies, food was donated and troop members brought their own tools again. This boy was from a family that could afford to fund 50 eagle projects.

One of my sons is in the first planning stages of his project. It has been approved at the crew level (he's a venturer now). It's a fairly complicated project with the potential of being around for a while; it's not a one and done project. He is having legal and accounting services donated by professionals. The only other cost is transportation and that may be donated; if not, he'll fundraise. He raised money for his NOAC trip by selling ices at council functions. I paid for the ices and cups, took my money back from proceeds and he got the rest. The sign he made said: "help me go to NOAC this year, please." We had permission from council to do the fundraising. Although we did not meet his full goal, he donated 20% of his net to council to go towards funding NOAC for other youth. My husband and I paid the rest.

Different projects have different levels of financial and fundraising need. My friend's son did a disability drive and collected wheelchairs, etc. His only expense was for pizza and soda for the boys who manned the drive and for the posters and fliers he put up advertising the drive. All of the food, etc. was donated.

I personally think that boys should be encouraged to seek donations and fundraise if necessary and that parents should be the donor of last resort. No boy should be unable to do a project because he can't fundraise.

Qwase -

You are correct. I would not want to explain to a parent I don't know. I don't have my son drive any underage members other than his own siblings and girlfriend as I think it's safer that way. My husband or another adult drives and some of the boys drive as well.

At this point, all of the kids in the crew are boys we have known for years. They hang out in our home and we know their parents. Most of them are friends of my middle sons but have known my oldest son for years as well. At this point, they all know his girlfriend as well. I am looking to expand our girl roster. Two of our members have sisters - one girl staffs art at summer camp and the other is an avid girl scout but not yet 14 - and I am hoping to recruit them and their moms, both of whom camp. That might alleviate some of the female leadership problem. I attend day activities to chaperone but I really can't camp any longer, although since I had a recent surgery, I might be able to do cabin camping by the summer. Sleeping on the ground is not possible at this point.

I really like the venturing program and hope that we can keep it going with an infusion of new kids when my youngest turns 14 next year.

And, yes, you're right, I would hate to lose my son as a leader. The Venture program has helped him to mature and he has really stepped up as a leader.

Qwase -

I am aware of fraternization and inappropriate social relationships. My son and his girlfriend have been a couple for over 4 years now, well before there was crew involvement. I have my feelings about this because they are both so young, but there is nothing inappropriate about their relationship. In actuality, they treat each other with a level of respect and trust that many older married couples would find it tough to emulate.

With that said, we have shown the youth protection videos to the members and their parents and my son knows that he is an example and a role model. We have never permitted inappropriate conduct between him and his girlfriend because my son has 4 younger siblings - they were not allowed to be in his room with the door closed, etc.

On camping trips and other functions, they do not travel alone together, although they clearly spend time alone in the car when not engaged in scout activities. They do not tent together and they are not allowed to wander off together unless they are in a group. When the crew is broken down into groups, my son and his girlfriend are never put in a situation where he supervises her. Both of them have respected the guidelines and I would not hesitate to suspend my son if he did violate a guideline.

I understand your point and would probably feel differently if they were not already a couple when they joined the crew. We make every effort to comply with the rules and think we are doing a good job.

Our Venture crew is a shooting sports crew. Many of our boys also like to cook.

The boys came up with this slogan: "Good friends, good food, good deeds, good shot!"

This isn't really a formal mission statement but it certainly serves to convey what the focus of the crew is.

First, as the parent of special needs kids myself, let me thank you and ocmmend you for what you are doing.

If you are near a college, you might want to reach out to the education department if they have one. My daughter is studying to be a special ed teacher and she volunteers at a local school with special needs kids. At some point, she said she would like to work with a SN girl scout troop and I have encouraged her to think about starting one when she gets a teaching job. If there are any former scouts in the department, you might find some who are willing to earn service credits by helping out. Unfortunately, soouting may not be conducive to one of the best ways of working with some sn kids - which is the 1:1 mentor, due to 2 deep issues, although if you do any type of sports programs, a 1:1 would work because it would be in plain view of everyone else.

Beavah -

You sre right, I was not clear about the 2 deep situation. My oldest son drove his girlfriend home but he was accompanied by another adult leader, also 21, and my 15 year old son. After dropping her, the 3 guys went back to camp as it was only about a 40 minute drive. My son's girlfriend is over 18 but I treat her as under in venture context.

As for the injury situation in the original post, I re-read it and you may be right that the injuries occurred pre-trip but I was not certain either.

5scoutmom

jblake47 - The Lindsay Lohans did that to the dad's fiance in the remake of The Parent Trap.

This wasn't a really bad experience but it is one that we tell over and over again. Years ago, we went camping for a weekend, not realizing that a hurricane was bearing down our way. It was my husband and I with our kids, who were then 6, 4, a day away from 2 and 3 months. I barely slept because I had the baby with me to nurse. The other kids kept trying to push me off the air mattress. The capper was when the 2 year old woke us up at the crack of dawn, screaming: "It my burfay. Sing to me" FORTY times in a row! The last few times were in the car as we raced to outrun the hurricane.

I have had 4 sons at scout camp over the past dozen years. I have never given a cell phone to a son who is a camper.

When my second son was a CIT, he did not want a phone. The following year, he was staff and my next son was a CIT. The younger boy wanted to bring his cell and I allowed it because he was going to be gone all summer. They both worked at camp the next summer and again, the younger one took the phone. They called us about once a week.

This year, my youngest is going as a camper and he will not have a phone.

I don't think cells are necessary for campers but staff should have them.

My husband and I are the adult leaders of a Venture crew. We have 2 other male adult leaders and three young men in their early 20's as leaders. We have about 3 girls registered but they rarely camp. When one of them does, we have an arrangement with a female scouter from another district who likes to camp. I can not camp for physical reasons so this woman meets the crew at the camp site on those occasions. When she could not attend one trip, I had to tell our one female member who wanted to camp that she couldn't go. She's my oldest son's girlfriend. She wound up going out just for the day and my son brought her home after dinner.

I would be concerned about this situation for many reasons. First, what the heck activity were they doing that two kids were hurt? Who vetted this activity? Why were the kids sleeping at the advisor's home? etc etc all of which was covered. There are many ways to deal with adult leadership issues and still remain in compliance.

3 years ago, my husband and oldest son joined a Venturing crew based in another town. 2 years ago, my second son left his boy scout troop due to conflicts with leadership. A few months later, I pulled my 2 youngest sons out of that troop, again to its leadership.

I put my youngest son in a different troop in a different town but my middle sons did not want to be in another troop. They really want the leaders of their old troop to leave but that wasn't happening. My oldest son was turning 18 and aging out of scouts.

The crew my husband and son were in was aging out as well. My husband and I moved the crew's charter to the same COR as my sons' former troop and we now meet there as a crew.

We have about 3 girls and a dozen or more boys who range from 15 to 20. My oldest son is now an adult leader, along with 2 of his friends who were never in scouting before. My son who was expelled from his troop is the treasurer of the crew and my 3rd son is the president. We have several boys who are still members of the troop, 2 who had dropped out of a different troop, a couple who are from my youngest son's new troop and at least 6 other boys who never belonged to scouts before. Three of them had never even ever been camping.

The crew is awesome. The kids are great. They hang out even when they are not doing crew activities. They go camping, they have run an activity each year in their specialty which has become so successful we have to turn people away, they do scouting for food, they are planning on doing a CPR training, a few have been inspired to join our local volunteer FD... And the best is that my youngest son isn't venture eligible till next year and he is planning on recruiting his friends to join up.

Starting a crew is not easy. We were lucky to be able to take over a somewhat existent group but a year later only one adult leader from the old group and none of the kids is still a part of it.

However, when I see my sons and their friends still involved in scouting and know that it can continue after age 18, it's worth it. I will say that none of the boys we have is much interested in advancement but that's ok, they are learning skills for life even if they aren't moving up in rank.

An option for you, Thomas, might be to try to lure some of the other troop's views in to your crew. They can dual enroll in both groups.

Good luck.

My son did 3 weeks provo this year and one week with his troop. He is 12. It worked out so well that we are going to do it again next summer. The summer after that he can be a CIT.

The provo scoutmaster was a young adult from his home troop so he knew him and my other boys are on staff so he had plenty of people there for him, but the other provo moms and dads I spoke to said their sons enjoyed their experience as well.

I am only sorry that I never did provo with my older boys.

For years, our troop did not do the first year program. Last year, they revamped it into a full week, full day course. I'm not sure exactly what they did but my son loved it so much that he is going back this year for one week with his troop and the rest provo troop. He got up to second class. His goal is to be first class by the end of camp.

My older son will be staff in the FYP this year. He is a 16 year old rising HS senior Life Scout and this is his 3rd year on staff. He is looking forward to the program as he enjoys working with the younger boys. His brother says he is the best math teacher he's ever had, the den he chiefed for had a 95% retention rate in to scouts.

I think a FYP can be a very good thing. The boys who took it last year are really enthused about going back and working on merit badges this year.

Our summer camp has a female director this; last year and for several years prior, she was an area director. Her HS senior niece is at camp this year and will be in the same area as my HS junior son; they were both at camp last year. A 15 year old girl who is the sister of a scout will be on staff as well this year. Some of our med people are female as well.

I think that if females are staffing the waterfront, they should be required to wear a certain type of bathing suit that is appropriate and docked pay or fired if they don't. I believe the camp has the right to require that.

I apologize because I haven't read the other responses but perhaps a rule that parents shouldn't chat in ANY language because it disrupts the boys' concentration could help.

Maybe set the boys up at different stations and require their partner to sit with them and then seat the boys near other boys whose moms aren't friends with their moms.

Maybe learn how to say "Please be quiet, you're disrupting the meeting" in Polish or ask the moms to teach the boys the scout promise or whatever in Polish...

The thing that bothers me is not the chattering in foreign languages. I ride the NYC subway regularly and it's a done deal that many people chat in LOTE. The thing that bothers me is the rudeness of chatting at all during a meeting.

GKlose -

You DID see someone bullying that boy - the shop teacher. I am sure that many of us of a certain age witnessed episodes like that and that the vast majority of the kids involved did not grow up to kill their parents.

I followed the story the OP mentioned but did not realize the young men were Scouts. Not all boys who join scouts are angels. A former scout in my town was recently arrested for menacing another kid (both HS sophs) with the knife he was given for earning Totin' Chip.

I don't know that scouts or the parents can be faulted. I truly believe that there are just people who are evil... The boy in NH said he wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. Why anyone would ever want to feel that feeling is beyond me but maybe it's attributable to violent video games or abusive parents but I doubt that an hour or a weekend of scouting for a few years has anything to do with it.

Eamonn -

My husband and sons swear by those pants. My sons will not be caught dead wearing jeans. They love the 5.11's so much that I got them each two pairs for Hanukah. They love the pockets and the knee pads. They wear well and wash well. I buy my clothing at the thrift shop and am not into spending money on clothing but these pants are very worth it. I bought them on sale through the Gall's online catalogue and got a multi-pair discount. My son has purchased them from a local Army Navy store; by the way, the Army Navy stores can be good sources of nicely priced goods.